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I'll be telling my age here. But, it was a "line in a song." If I agree I'LL be telling MY age...😂😂😂😂😂
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Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, Hebrews 6:1
You saying the Disciples contradict each other?
You saying the Disciples contradict each other?
Only you can tell us whether the thought that the disciples contradicted themselves was from your own reasoning or whether it came from above.
Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
To be honest, I don't why you would think that the disciples contradicted each other so the only contradiction I see that could be construed is that your answer to the question '"How does one leave the word which was true, is true and will always be true except they transgress the doctrine of Christ?" is with a question. But that would only if you believed 1 Peter 3:15 was applicable to the question I asked you.
Yet I believe it would apply to your question then to answer the question , '"You saying that the Disciples contradict each other?", if you believe that the verses cited above are the words of a disciple then my answer would be 'yes' and if you don't believe them to be the words of the disciple then my answer would be "no".
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To clarify my answer above see 1 Thess 2:13
You may have a point if in fact I did state one "MUST" "leave the Word." Which is something "you" stated. I didn't state it, and both of the verses either of us used, didn't state "nary a hint" of "leaving the Word!"
Here! The NIV Bible explains what I was saying more better:
Hebrews 6
Therefore let us "MOVE BEYOND" the "ELEMENTARY TEACHINGS" about Christ and be "TAKEN FORWARDS TO MATURITY", not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death,[a] and of faith in God,
Here is the verse you quoted from the NIV Bible:
2 John
9 "Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God"; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son.
So, as you "may" be able to see NEITHER ONE of these verses even HINTS at "leaving the Word!"
In short? Both these verses make a rather LOUD Proclamation: "NEVER FORGET WHERE YA CAME FROM!" Which is, BY Jesus Christ offering one's "spiritual sacrificings" ACCEPTABLE TO GOD! Although, I'll ADMIT, there are "great perils" in "the traversing THROUGH" "vanishing points", also referred to some in this forum as "rabbit holes", though has been awhile since I've seen reference made to 'em.
Spiritual Maturity, and a more "thorough UNDERSTANDING OF THE WORD" are the benefits of "works" (efforts), GAINED, "beyond salvation!" But ya gotta "pick up your cross and bring WITH you!"
And this is a PROBLEM with, and for MANY believers! They NEVER MOVE BEYOND ELEMENTARY TEACHINGS!
AND IT SHOWS!
Isaiah 28 (KJV)
9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
Isaiah 28 (NIV)
9 “Who is it he is trying to teach? To whom is he explaining his message? To children weaned from their milk,to those just taken from the breast?
10 For it is: Do this, do that, a rule for this, a rule for that; a little here, a little there.”
11 Very well then, with foreign lips and strange tongues God will speak to this people,
12 to whom he said, “This is the resting place, let the weary rest”;
and, “This is the place of repose”— but they would not listen.
13 So then, the word of the Lord to them will become: Do this, do that,a rule for this, a rule for that;a little here, a little there— so that as they go they will fall backward; they will be injured and snared and captured.
Heh! Leaving the Word?
The fact you even used that phrase, bespeaks volumes, of where yer head is at.
Here! The NIV Bible explains what I was saying more better:
Hebrews 6
Therefore let us "MOVE BEYOND" the "ELEMENTARY TEACHINGS" about Christ and be "TAKEN FORWARDS TO MATURITY", not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death,[a] and of faith in God,
Here is the verse you quoted from the NIV Bible:
2 John
9 "Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God"; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son.
So, as you "may" be able to see NEITHER ONE of these verses even HINTS at "leaving the Word!"
In short? Both these verses make a rather LOUD Proclamation: "NEVER FORGET WHERE YA CAME FROM!" Which is, BY Jesus Christ offering one's "spiritual sacrificings" ACCEPTABLE TO GOD! Although, I'll ADMIT, there are "great perils" in "the traversing THROUGH" "vanishing points", also referred to some in this forum as "rabbit holes", though has been awhile since I've seen reference made to 'em.
Spiritual Maturity, and a more "thorough UNDERSTANDING OF THE WORD" are the benefits of "works" (efforts), GAINED, "beyond salvation!" But ya gotta "pick up your cross and bring WITH you!"
And this is a PROBLEM with, and for MANY believers! They NEVER MOVE BEYOND ELEMENTARY TEACHINGS!
AND IT SHOWS!
Isaiah 28 (KJV)
9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
Isaiah 28 (NIV)
9 “Who is it he is trying to teach? To whom is he explaining his message? To children weaned from their milk,to those just taken from the breast?
10 For it is: Do this, do that, a rule for this, a rule for that; a little here, a little there.”
11 Very well then, with foreign lips and strange tongues God will speak to this people,
12 to whom he said, “This is the resting place, let the weary rest”;
and, “This is the place of repose”— but they would not listen.
13 So then, the word of the Lord to them will become: Do this, do that,a rule for this, a rule for that;a little here, a little there— so that as they go they will fall backward; they will be injured and snared and captured.
Heh! Leaving the Word?
The fact you even used that phrase, bespeaks volumes, of where yer head is at.
For the record, my point was that somebody who would consider leaving behind the principles of the doctrine of Christ would not recognize that the doctrine of Christ is revealed as principles. Hence, leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ would in effect be leaving the doctrine of Christ since principles are the law of truth which is the word that was true, is true and will always be true.
Hence the question I posted;
In response to your statement:
is that you didn't say one "MUST" "leave the Word" yet you did in fact make the following quote.
Yet your answer which denies you said that one must leave the doctrines of Christ.
The fact you opt to cite a a book that was required to make substantial changes from the original work (KJV) in order to obtain a copyright doesn't help your argument that leaving behind the principles of the doctrine of Christ is anything more than leaving the words which principles reveal were true, are true and that we can have faith in being the words which will always be true.
What I do see is that NEITHER ONE of those verse even HINTS at 'having found the Truth!' since faith comes by hearing the voice of the Son of God and not by what they think they hear written in the scriptures.
Maybe you hear what you can't see in the scriptures but those who have not heard are saved by the hope that they will hear but
hope in hearing the word of God that is seen is not hope in the Son of God who is not seen.
And the point being?
So I take that as you saying that it was the you when you read the two verses you believe them to be the word of God and not the word of men, so why did you ask if the disciples contradicted themselves since they couldn't contradict themselves if the words was not theirs but Gods'?
Hence the question I posted;
In response to your statement:
is that you didn't say one "MUST" "leave the Word" yet you did in fact make the following quote.
Yet your answer which denies you said that one must leave the doctrines of Christ.
The fact you opt to cite a a book that was required to make substantial changes from the original work (KJV) in order to obtain a copyright doesn't help your argument that leaving behind the principles of the doctrine of Christ is anything more than leaving the words which principles reveal were true, are true and that we can have faith in being the words which will always be true.
What I do see is that NEITHER ONE of those verse even HINTS at 'having found the Truth!' since faith comes by hearing the voice of the Son of God and not by what they think they hear written in the scriptures.
And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man. Acts 9:7
I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me... Acts 26:14
Maybe you hear what you can't see in the scriptures but those who have not heard are saved by the hope that they will hear but
hope in hearing the word of God that is seen is not hope in the Son of God who is not seen.
Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. John 5:25
And the Gospel clearly establishes that the believer is saved by hope, for he who comes to God must believe he is and is a rewarder of those who diligently seek him. And those who have had hope he is will be rewarded when they diligently seek him.And the point being?
So I take that as you saying that it was the you when you read the two verses you believe them to be the word of God and not the word of men, so why did you ask if the disciples contradicted themselves since they couldn't contradict themselves if the words was not theirs but Gods'?
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It isn't about "the doctrines" not being valid or truth, it is the "getting past" those first "truths" we are taught and going into the deeper levels of knowledge to be found within the Word. The buried treasures that you must seek to find.
Matthew 13:44 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field.
Matthew 13:45 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a merchant man, seeking goodly pearls
Matthew 13:46 Who, when he had found one pearl of great price, went and sold all that he had, and bought it.
Hebrews 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
Hebrews 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him
Hebrews 5:10 Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.
Hebrews 5:11 Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.
Hebrews 5:12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
Hebrews 5:13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness for he is a babe.
Hebrews 5:14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
Its about going beyond the basics (milk) moving toward perfection (meat). It is the seeking out of the knowledge of where we came from so we can understand what and why the things that are happening are happening so we can understand the Plan of God and what we should go after in the Word to be of use to Him.
Meaning we have to Pray, and ponder, and work and study and dig deep.
Matthew 13:44 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field.
Matthew 13:45 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a merchant man, seeking goodly pearls
Matthew 13:46 Who, when he had found one pearl of great price, went and sold all that he had, and bought it.
Hebrews 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
Hebrews 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him
Hebrews 5:10 Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.
Hebrews 5:11 Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.
Hebrews 5:12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
Hebrews 5:13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness for he is a babe.
Hebrews 5:14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
Its about going beyond the basics (milk) moving toward perfection (meat). It is the seeking out of the knowledge of where we came from so we can understand what and why the things that are happening are happening so we can understand the Plan of God and what we should go after in the Word to be of use to Him.
Meaning we have to Pray, and ponder, and work and study and dig deep.
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this thread has me like
the personal exchanges are so thick I forgot what the op was about
really
the personal exchanges are so thick I forgot what the op was about
really
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Luke 1:76-79
And thou,child, shalt be called the prophet of the Highest: for thou shalt go before the face of the Lord to prepare His ways;
To give knowledge of SALVATION unto His people by the remission of their sins,
Through the tender mercy of our God; whereby the dayspring from on high hath visited us,
TO GIVE LIGHT TO THEM THAT SIT ON DARKNESS and in the shadow of death ( sin),to guide our feet in the way of peace.
This was said of John the Baptist,
BUT isn't it what every believer is to do?
This is how we make disciples and build the kingdom!
And thou,child, shalt be called the prophet of the Highest: for thou shalt go before the face of the Lord to prepare His ways;
To give knowledge of SALVATION unto His people by the remission of their sins,
Through the tender mercy of our God; whereby the dayspring from on high hath visited us,
TO GIVE LIGHT TO THEM THAT SIT ON DARKNESS and in the shadow of death ( sin),to guide our feet in the way of peace.
This was said of John the Baptist,
BUT isn't it what every believer is to do?
This is how we make disciples and build the kingdom!
Deception/Deceiver/Accuser of the Brethren. The prince of the power of the air. Satan, of the night, darkness, moons, liars. The tares, his children, sown among the good seed, look just like the wheat, but are nothing more than bad figs. They knows Gods commands, but they don't follow them, they go the way of their father.
How are we to tell them apart?? By the fruit they produce. And what does their fruit look and sound like?? such as hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, revellings, and such like of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Galatians 5:7 Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth?
Galatians 5:8 This persuasion cometh not of him that calleth you.
Galatians 5:9 A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.
Galatians 5:10 I have confidence in you through the Lord, that ye will be none otherwise minded: but he that troubleth you shall bear his judgment, whosoever he be.
Galatians 5:11 And I, brethren, if I yet preach circumcision, why do I yet suffer persecution? then is the offence of the cross ceased.
Galatians 5:12 I would they were even cut off which trouble you.
Galatians 5:13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.
Galatians 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Galatians 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
Galatians 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
Galatians 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
Galatians 5:26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.
How are we to tell them apart?? By the fruit they produce. And what does their fruit look and sound like?? such as hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, revellings, and such like of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Galatians 5:7 Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth?
Galatians 5:8 This persuasion cometh not of him that calleth you.
Galatians 5:9 A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.
Galatians 5:10 I have confidence in you through the Lord, that ye will be none otherwise minded: but he that troubleth you shall bear his judgment, whosoever he be.
Galatians 5:11 And I, brethren, if I yet preach circumcision, why do I yet suffer persecution? then is the offence of the cross ceased.
Galatians 5:12 I would they were even cut off which trouble you.
Galatians 5:13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.
Galatians 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Galatians 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
Galatians 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
Galatians 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
Galatians 5:26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.
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Oh foolish Galatians...who has bewitched you....HAVING BEGUN IN THE SPIRT (FAITH) are you now made COMPLETE by the flesh (works).........
People can peddle a faith plus works dogma until the cows come home, the chickens roost, the stars fall from the sky and all the way up to standing before Jesus boasting of all the wonderful works they have done in his name as PROOF AND RIGHT TO ENTER the kingdom.....and that combination will SAVE NO ONE or make one RIGHTEOUS BEFORE GOD!
People can peddle a faith plus works dogma until the cows come home, the chickens roost, the stars fall from the sky and all the way up to standing before Jesus boasting of all the wonderful works they have done in his name as PROOF AND RIGHT TO ENTER the kingdom.....and that combination will SAVE NO ONE or make one RIGHTEOUS BEFORE GOD!
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Yes, YOU GOT THAT RIGHT, thank God he had the wisdom to gift us salvation, so that all those works are a credited to us, but not for salvation. They are after all ALL THAT WE TAKE WITH US.
Revelation 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.
Revelation 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.
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It is true, there are many "believers, and seekers", as well as many "mockers and scoffers" here in CC.
ALL of which are at various levels and stages of "Christly/Holy/Priestly development." Including myself.
The problem lies, as you have so correctly illustrated, that some believers will never leave, nor "move beyond" the "doctrine/s of Christ." Because "Christ is the Principle!" Thus, there are no principles TO leave, in their minds.
Time after time after time, myself and others, are not in any way refuting that one is not saved by grace through faith, in Jesus Christ.
Unfortunately, saved by grace through faith, does not equate to ones' being spiritually mature. Again, never leaving Christ! Let alone "The principles of Christ, or His doctrines!"
(you said)
"Maybe you hear what you can't see in the scriptures but those who have not heard are saved by the hope that they will hear but hope in hearing the word of God that is seen is not hope in the Son of God who is not seen."
This is true! I DO hear (understand) what many seemingly "can't" see (understand)! And, have been "led" to read writings NOT INCLUDED in "the Bible", so I can "see/hear (understand)" even "more" that people who never leave the doctrine of Christ, let alone the "principles", only "hope" they may be able to "see/hear (understand)."
It is when the Father "tries/pleads/implores" one in the "moving BEYOND" the being "saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ", TO Himself, where grace is not SO abounding, and learning and being taught "the Principles of the Holy Priesthood", that, seemingly, to most, anyway, are a "bridge TOO FAR" to pursue!
Which leads to this:
Isaiah 28
15 Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:
So, they live out their spiritual lives on earth "Playing Church!"
And teaching/preaching others to do the same!
Never realizing, or worse deceive themselves into being "willingly ignorant", of their "nakedness."
Isaiah 28
20 For the bed is shorter than that a man can stretch himself on it: and the covering narrower than that he can wrap himself in it.
This is the "difference between the "Gospel of Jesus Christ", and the "Everlasting Gospel of the Kingdom!" To which Jesus was trying to teach as well. But, to no avail! Paul even tried to "teach the Kingdom" to the gentiles, but, they were even far worse off then the Jews! So Paul "dumbed it down" having been led by the Spirit to do so!
These days? "Paulene Christians", and Christendom in general, say they "follow" Paul! But, not as Paul followed Christ!
Elst they would understand more "the mysteries" Paul was trying to impart upon them. And more people would be teaching this "Everlasting Gospel" of the Kingdom. Instead of mocking and scoffing it like this:
2 Peter 3
4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
It would be most fortunate, should there only be ONE Christ!
But there isn't!
There's two!
The real one.
The "spirit of INSTEAD of Christ!"
Or being better put? Satan's infiltration of "people called by God's name!"
ALL of which are at various levels and stages of "Christly/Holy/Priestly development." Including myself.
The problem lies, as you have so correctly illustrated, that some believers will never leave, nor "move beyond" the "doctrine/s of Christ." Because "Christ is the Principle!" Thus, there are no principles TO leave, in their minds.
Time after time after time, myself and others, are not in any way refuting that one is not saved by grace through faith, in Jesus Christ.
Unfortunately, saved by grace through faith, does not equate to ones' being spiritually mature. Again, never leaving Christ! Let alone "The principles of Christ, or His doctrines!"
(you said)
"Maybe you hear what you can't see in the scriptures but those who have not heard are saved by the hope that they will hear but hope in hearing the word of God that is seen is not hope in the Son of God who is not seen."
This is true! I DO hear (understand) what many seemingly "can't" see (understand)! And, have been "led" to read writings NOT INCLUDED in "the Bible", so I can "see/hear (understand)" even "more" that people who never leave the doctrine of Christ, let alone the "principles", only "hope" they may be able to "see/hear (understand)."
It is when the Father "tries/pleads/implores" one in the "moving BEYOND" the being "saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ", TO Himself, where grace is not SO abounding, and learning and being taught "the Principles of the Holy Priesthood", that, seemingly, to most, anyway, are a "bridge TOO FAR" to pursue!
Which leads to this:
Isaiah 28
15 Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:
So, they live out their spiritual lives on earth "Playing Church!"
And teaching/preaching others to do the same!
Never realizing, or worse deceive themselves into being "willingly ignorant", of their "nakedness."
Isaiah 28
20 For the bed is shorter than that a man can stretch himself on it: and the covering narrower than that he can wrap himself in it.
This is the "difference between the "Gospel of Jesus Christ", and the "Everlasting Gospel of the Kingdom!" To which Jesus was trying to teach as well. But, to no avail! Paul even tried to "teach the Kingdom" to the gentiles, but, they were even far worse off then the Jews! So Paul "dumbed it down" having been led by the Spirit to do so!
These days? "Paulene Christians", and Christendom in general, say they "follow" Paul! But, not as Paul followed Christ!
Elst they would understand more "the mysteries" Paul was trying to impart upon them. And more people would be teaching this "Everlasting Gospel" of the Kingdom. Instead of mocking and scoffing it like this:
2 Peter 3
4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
It would be most fortunate, should there only be ONE Christ!
But there isn't!
There's two!
The real one.
The "spirit of INSTEAD of Christ!"
Or being better put? Satan's infiltration of "people called by God's name!"
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