What's middle class where you live?

[Lanolin]

Sounds complicated calibob but you have indicated you are in the working class. So not sure why you saying you are somehow middle.

I had this idea that people who rent shouldnt have to pay income tax as they are paying for a place to live each week dependent on their weekly income. Landowners pay rates every year and will, rent out their properties for income and to pay for their land. So they are the ones who ought to pay taxes.

At the moment in nz theres really no capital gains tax on properties so people can charge however much they like, and also theres no bed tax so they can operate an air b n b. And charge however much they like. This is for people with more than one property, obviously they have more than other peoples.

In bible times how it worked was the levites didnt have to pay any tithe because they had NO land. The other tribes had to give tithes so that the levites could serve at the temple. They got to live there but couldnt work the land so couldnt grow any food etc. if the tithes didnt come in, the levites would starve as they had no means to feed themselves. Also the tihes were meant to feed the orphans and the widows,and the men were meant to provide for their households. All the tribes got their lot of land assigned to them, it was their inheritance. You couldnt buy or sell this land, it was given.

 

[calibob]

Middle class income

Image: aol.com
The Pew Research Center defines the US middle class as those earning two-thirds to twice the median household income, which was $60,336 in 2017, meaning middle-class Americans were earning about $40,425 to $120,672. Nov 14 2018

That was a copy/paste. I am not the author!
@Lanolin Once again. I hate to repost this but you obviously haven't read what I've previously posted.
I went to Bing and asked What the middle class income is. We are not supposed to have the type of class system in the USA that existed before 1776. That's what caused our revolutionary war against England. Taxation without representation was the #1 reason #2 was Separation of church and state. In fact we wanted the government out of church business mostly. With the right to vote there is no way to keep Christians or any other religion (for that matter) from choosing the way that we want to live or who to vote for or not.

Most Americans I know consider middle class as middle income tax bracket which is the majority of US citizens eligible to vote. Most abhor the idea of a ruling class and wouldn't tolerate a King in the United States.
Our family of 6's combined income gross before taxes or deductions was less than $50k last year. which places us in the lower middle class tax bracket. But my Social Security coms from what I've already earned and paid taxes on since I was 15 years old. Below $25k I'm tax exempt. I'm not bellyaching about my taxes as there paid in full already.

I was a certified and licensed automotive emissions controls specialist, a crisis and suicide prevention counselor A wedding Co-Ordinator/Photographer Then went back to substance abuse prevention and was a volunteer at Dual Recovery Anonymous. For alcoholic/addicts with co occurring mental health issues. I'm not an expert or professional anything any more but I know how to tell the truth as I see it.

CO https://users.csc.calpoly.edu/~jdalbey/Public/Bill_of_Rights.html

 

[calibob]

I hold it that a little rebellion now and then is a good thing, and as necessary in the political world as storms in the physical. Unsuccesful rebellions indeed generally establish the incroachments on the rights of the people which have produced them. An observation of this truth should render honest republican governors so mild in their punishment of rebellions, as not to discourage them too much. It is a medecine necessary for the sound health of government." - Thomas Jefferson to James Madison, Paris, January 30, 1787 (They were US Presidents)
(co;https://www.monticello.org/site/research-and-collections/little-rebellionquotation)

 

[Heyjude]

Oh yeah. I understand that. Many that are considered Upper middleclass are barely more than working poor here. Due to credit card addiction, unstable interest and mortgage rates. many are less then 6 mos from bankruptcy if things go sour. There is very little inherited wealth or real estate in the USA. The banks own almost everything now.

I trust banks about as much as casinos. But the banks are reinforced by taxpayers and actually lose very little when the foreclose on a mortgage. As they keep the property while so many lose their homes... But the taxpayers are still payimg to keep the banks afloat.., 11 years ago.. What a scam!

Anyone, any class, working, middle or upper, had better prepare for the changes coming in 2020. Some even say, like the Armstrong Economics Model, late January 2020 is predicted for a massive downturn economically and that usually starts with the banks and the stock market which has been inflated. Banks cannot make any money themselves with negative interest rates. When it hits negative, pay attention.

In that case scenario, plastic credit may be useless for a while - so keep cash aside if possible and supplies, as if you do not think a massive correction is coming around the corner like a tidal wave, take a look at accumulated debt in the US alone. It doesn't matter which economic system the government use now, they are all worthless as the rule book was ripped up when the government started to print money.

This is also the way Europe tried to stop an avalanche in the past as well. But you can't really stop a debt avalanche when the debt keeps building and they just keep printing more. Remember Greece. The cash machines were shut - cash only for trade for many months before the banks allowed anyone to even get their own money out in case the banks went bust.

The US Debt Clock website today shows that 22 trillion dollars is the amount the US Government is in debt. The US debt went up 10% with Trump as President.

Collectively with the public and government debt, the US clock reads the USA is nearly 73 trillion dollars in debt.

Just so you know - A trillion has 12 zeros.

Another way of looking at it is that a trillion is a thousand billion. It has been estimated that a $1 trillion worth of one dollar bills measures 109,220 kilometres, which is equivalent to more than one fourth of the way from the earth to the moon. Multiply that by 73.

It's not just the USA either - basically the financial system in the West is now one big giant ponzi scheme. Better to be prepared for a debt flood coming than not at all and have ready cash, three months supplies and keep your eye on things for 2020 as some are still living in debt like the party hasn't started yet but it's nearly over.

“People were eating, drinking, marrying and being given in marriage up to the day Noah entered the ark. Then the flood came and destroyed them all. In those days, the people enjoyed banquets and parties and weddings right up to the time Noah entered his boat and the flood came …”Luke 17.27

https://usdebtclock.org/

 

[calibob]

Thank you for sounding the alarm but I wish 1% were listening.

 

[Miri]

I'm glad you have a logical, workable healthcare system Here it goes state by state and varies widely. I have cataracts and need dental surgery and no money or insurance for either. I could get both in California, but I can't afford to live there.

Lord I prayer you will make a way so that Bob can have the dental and cataract surgery.
Open doors where these seem to be closed and bring the right people and circumstances
about in Bobs life. Amen.


Hi, not sure why but I kept getting the thought of a cross with sticking out bits at the ends.
Anyway I looked it up and it was something like this. This is a military George Cross
awarded for gallantry. Not sure if this is relevant.

 

[Lanolin]

That was a copy/paste. I am not the author!
@Lanolin Once again. I hate to repost this but you obviously haven't read what I've previously posted.
I went to Bing and asked What the middle class income is. We are not supposed to have the type of class system in the USA that existed before 1776. That's what caused our revolutionary war against England. Taxation without representation was the #1 reason #2 was Separation of church and state. In fact we wanted the government out of church business mostly. With the right to vote there is no way to keep Christians or any other religion (for that matter) from choosing the way that we want to live or who to vote for or not.

Most Americans I know consider middle class as middle income tax bracket which is the majority of US citizens eligible to vote. Most abhor the idea of a ruling class and wouldn't tolerate a King in the United States.
Our family of 6's combined income gross before taxes or deductions was less than $50k last year. which places us in the lower middle class tax bracket. But my Social Security coms from what I've already earned and paid taxes on since I was 15 years old. Below $25k I'm tax exempt. I'm not bellyaching about my taxes as there paid in full already.

I was a certified and licensed automotive emissions controls specialist, a crisis and suicide prevention counselor A wedding Co-Ordinator/Photographer Then went back to substance abuse prevention and was a volunteer at Dual Recovery Anonymous. For alcoholic/addicts with co occurring mental health issues. I'm not an expert or professional anything any more but I know how to tell the truth as I see it.

CO https://users.csc.calpoly.edu/~jdalbey/Public/Bill_of_Rights.html

Calibob if you read my posts I was talking of classes, not 'middle income tax brackets' which is something quite different. Sorry if I got your OP confused as thought YOU were asking about middle class. Which is an actual social group. It doesnt have a direct correlation with income necessarily.

 

[Lanolin]

I was just clarifying what 'middle class' means for YOUR edification.

If you dont have classses in US good for you. You have a meritrocracy, which is very different from the class society set up in places like eNgland.

In nz we are meant to be egalitarian and there is a principal of not showing off your wealth, but as people became more covetous and trade opned up with rogernomics etc, and things got deregulated, the economy changed. It has become a bit more like american economics. Still, social differences exist with groups of people and because a lot of people came from England there is still that kind of class mentality.

The upperclasses look down on the lower classeses. However insteresting the working classes are the ones who most support royalty, while the middle classes tend not to. This is because the working classs taxes support royalty! And they would rather have royal patronage than the middle classes, who can resent not being born into aristocracy. It was only in the last decades, that the Queen started paying tax!

 

[Lanolin]

On healthcare, in nz we have a pretty good public health system, although you need to be patient as you cant always get immediate assitance then if you were to go private and pay for it.

Each area has a local district health board. It is these people on the board YOU can vote for. They are the ones running the hospitals and health care in the area.

So what you need to do is talk to those people on the board if you are concerned about getting the healthcare you need. If youve identified that many people are missing out you need to bring it up! They cant do anything about it if you dont tell them your concerns.

 

[Magenta]

Sounds complicated calibob but you have indicated you are in the working class. So not sure why you saying you are somehow middle.

The middle class has to work for an income, you know. Otherwise they would be POOR.

 

[ArtsieSteph]

Hm....honestly I’m not sure. Here in AZ it depends a lot in what area you happen to be living in. My mom and I live in the more reasonably priced places, but in a suburb where a lot of folks have a good amount of disposable income.

AZ has a good amount of job availability but it tends to be very competitive for like the actual “careers.” We have a lot of good part time work though.

I’d say compared to the average on AZ were upper-middle, but in our neighborhood we’re middle.

 

[calibob]

I was just clarifying what 'middle class' means for YOUR edification.

If you dont have classses in US good for you. You have a meritrocracy, which is very different from the class society set up in places like eNgland.

In nz we are meant to be egalitarian and there is a principal of not showing off your wealth, but as people became more covetous and trade opned up with rogernomics etc, and things got deregulated, the economy changed. It has become a bit more like american economics. Still, social differences exist with groups of people and because a lot of people came from England there is still that kind of class mentality.

The upperclasses look down on the lower classeses. However insteresting the working classes are the ones who most support royalty, while the middle classes tend not to. This is because the working classs taxes support royalty! And they would rather have royal patronage than the middle classes, who can resent not being born into aristocracy. It was only in the last decades, that the Queen started paying tax!

We are not supposed to, but the wealthy and the immoral liberals are turning the founders ideologies on it head. The separation of church and state was intended to keep the state out of church business and as long as the church members have the right to vote they can't stop us. Notice that bill of rights includes the freedom of religion not freedom of the state.

 

[calibob]

@Lanolin This term has ben repeadte many times throughout United States history and is part of the reason for our existance, The abolition of slavery and the civil rights movement;
All Men Are Created Equal
The quotation "all men are created equal" is part of the U.S. Declaration of Independence, which Thomas Jefferson penned in 1776 during the beginning of the American Revolution. The phrase was present in Jefferson's original draft of the declaration. It was thereafter quoted and incorporated into speeches by a wide array of substantial figures in American political and social life in the United States. The final form of the phrase was stylized by Benjamin Franklin. It has been called an "immortal declaration", and "perhaps [the] single phrase" of the American Revolutionary period with the greatest "continuing importance."

 

[Lanolin]

@Lanolin This term has ben repeadte many times throughout United States history and is part of the reason for our existance, The abolition of slavery and the civil rights movement;
All Men Are Created Equal
The quotation "all men are created equal" is part of the U.S. Declaration of Independence, which Thomas Jefferson penned in 1776 during the beginning of the American Revolution. The phrase was present in Jefferson's original draft of the declaration. It was thereafter quoted and incorporated into speeches by a wide array of substantial figures in American political and social life in the United States. The final form of the phrase was stylized by Benjamin Franklin. It has been called an "immortal declaration", and "perhaps [the] single phrase" of the American Revolutionary period with the greatest "continuing importance."

Thats interesting but it seems a bit of rhetoric for american politicians to believe in when it doesnt actually happen in reality.

If you look at the history of the French revolution..they also have a phrase libertie, egalitie and fraternitie. They actually had a revolution in which the peasants i.e working classes, overthrew the rulers eg louis xiv who, if youve ever seen the palace of versailles, was completely over the top. Marie antoinette said let them eat cake when the common french people were starving and out of bread.

Yet if you look at the French nowadays with no monarchy there is still remnants of classes.there is still, the bourgeoise i.e he middle class, and the workers. People arent equal, for equality to happen they need to have something like communism!

And in many societies, if they dont have workers they just get migrants to do the jobs and treat them as second class citizens, so in fact there will always be some kind of class differences. In the US, its your migrant worker from mexico. You abolished slavery only to have another kind of indentured servant. They dont have indepnedence, but without those workers, your illegal migrants, who dont have many rights, dont have healthcare, and arent entitled to anything... your economy would collapse.

 

[Lanolin]

We are not supposed to, but the wealthy and the immoral liberals are turning the founders ideologies on it head. The separation of church and state was intended to keep the state out of church business and as long as the church members have the right to vote they can't stop us. Notice that bill of rights includes the freedom of religion not freedom of the state.

Not sure what separation of church and state have to do with your quesrion but that is the interesting thing about america which means all types of religions can flourish and can be tax free. Even church of scientology.

So anyway going back to healthcare, are some of your hospitals founded on christian principles, I imagine a lot would have been so why are they now being run like businesses? Maybe look into that and have christians take back their hospitals from the state and people trying to make a buck from them.

 

[calibob]

Not sure what separation of church and state have to do with your quesrion but that is the interesting thing about america which means all types of religions can flourish and can be tax free. Even church of scientology.

So anyway going back to healthcare, are some of your hospitals founded on christian principles, I imagine a lot would have been so why are they now being run like businesses? Maybe look into that and have christians take back their hospitals from the state and people trying to make a buck from them.

The reason that I brought separation of church and state into it was because it is another case where the founding principals have been or are being turned upside down. The nation that was funded and was supposed to be free of social and religious distinction's when it coms to governing as sepperated into socialists and antisocialists. and the influence of religion on society in general has become offensive to many on both sides also especially what is now termed as the left side. (but it is very present on both) Homosexuality and abortion being the most noticeable and noisy. It is fueled by the atheist agenda and sees anti abortion and anti gay privilege's as violations of their civil rights and has sought and won special rights and protection from legislation intended to protect unborn babies and the schools as well as the family units.

In public schools the young are now allowed to cross dress without fear of reprimand and homosexuality is seen as a matter of choice and freedom of expression and not a problem to society in general. The schools are required to accept it as normal and any anti gay rhetoric is sexist religious fanaticism and a violation of civil rights. The term religion has twisted also. The founder of the Satanic church in San Francisco was an atheist who wanted to create a pure hedonistic sanctuary were the could be protected by law to do or practice anything they wanted to, including drug abuse and bestialities without fear of legal reprimand, under constitutional protection. So he and his allies established Satanism as a legal religion. They also became a non profit tax free organization in the process.

Scientology is neither Science nor religion. However it also fall between the same tracks. L. Ron Hubbard was an not so good Sci Fi author who turned his theory of[ Dianetics: The Modern Science of Mental Health. Into a Tax free scam.

Many churches like the Salvation Army lost their freedom whe Government assistance became easy to receive if they bent the rules like requiring those seeking food or shelter to attend worship service. Being required to accept unrepentant Homosexuals into their rehab programs or any anti-Christians into the formerly Bible based rehab programs. However the history of God's people prostituting themselves goes back to Genesis.

Part of my goal is to helping people to realize that choosing the lesser of two evils is still choosing evil. Their are only two sides. Gods side and the wrong side. We are suppose to be set aside "be in the world not of the world." Gods nation has no human borders to delineate, nor economic boundaries, nor races, nor languages. I prefer to side with the needy rather than the greedy. That's my opinion.

 

[Lanolin]

Hmm my view of what happened is that the US founding fathers had a loophole in their contsitution that allowed freedom of worship to mean any god. So you could make up your own god or idol and owrship as you chose. Not necessairly God Almighty, heavenly Father through Jesus Christ. But the god of this world.

So when the US dollar says 'in God we trust' people,might assume its God, but unbelievers will worship the god of this world, who is Satan. Satan just calls himself God. And so they get around it this way. Not all founding fathers were christians, many were deists.

They didnt want to make a church of america cos they couldnt decide on the right way to worship, there were too many dissenting groups, you had puritans, anabaptists, mennonites, amish, not to mention cartholics, episocalians, independent baptists, and all those sects like mormons, christian scientists, mormons, jehovahs witnesses, shakers, quakers, congergationalists, methodists, sdas, lutherans, presbyterians, chritadelphians...I could go on. Then you got native american religions and the new age hippies, humanists.....scientologists...and jim jones.

 

[calibob]

Hmm my view of what happened is that the US founding fathers had a loophole in their contsitution that allowed freedom of worship to mean any god. So you could make up your own god or idol and owrship as you chose. Not necessairly God Almighty, heavenly Father through Jesus Christ. But the god of this world.

So when the US dollar says 'in God we trust' people,might assume its God, but unbelievers will worship the god of this world, who is Satan. Satan just calls himself God. And so they get around it this way. Not all founding fathers were christians, many were deists.

They didnt want to make a church of america cos they couldnt decide on the right way to worship, there were too many dissenting groups, you had puritans, anabaptists, mennonites, amish, not to mention cartholics, episocalians, independent baptists, and all those sects like mormons, christian scientists, mormons, jehovahs witnesses, shakers, quakers, congergationalists, methodists, sdas, lutherans, presbyterians, chritadelphians...I could go on. Then you got native american religions and the new age hippies, humanists.....scientologists...and jim jones.

BTW; Mennonites are Anabaptists. Many founding fathers were Freemasons or Deists. The system was never perfect, just better than the rest... So far.

 

[Heyjude]

I was just clarifying what 'middle class' means for YOUR edification.

If you dont have classses in US good for you. You have a meritrocracy, which is very different from the class society set up in places like eNgland.

In nz we are meant to be egalitarian and there is a principal of not showing off your wealth, but as people became more covetous and trade opned up with rogernomics etc, and things got deregulated, the economy changed. It has become a bit more like american economics. Still, social differences exist with groups of people and because a lot of people came from England there is still that kind of class mentality.

The upperclasses look down on the lower classeses. However insteresting the working classes are the ones who most support royalty, while the middle classes tend not to. This is because the working classs taxes support royalty! And they would rather have royal patronage than the middle classes, who can resent not being born into aristocracy. It was only in the last decades, that the Queen started paying tax!

Just out of interest, Norman Chomsky said the modern day definition of "class" is defined by who gives the orders and who follows them in politics.

 

[calibob]

Just out of interest, Norman Chomsky said the modern day definition of "class" is defined by who gives the orders and who follows them in politics.

Isn't he a Communist?