Prayer of the Arminian, Charles Spurgeon

[7seasrekeyed]

Rom 9

"for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls, it was said to her, “THE OLDER WILL SERVE THE YOUNGER.” Just as it is written, “JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED.”"

nope

the Romans 9 interpretation according to Calvinists

an example of a verse taken out of context and squeezed into the calvin paradigm

While studying Bible passages about Calvinism, God’s sovereignty, and man's free will, Calvinists frequently turn to Romans 9 as a favorite proof-text. The chapter contains multiple passages, which appear to support Calvinism. Therefore, this article will analyze the entire chapter in its context, discussing the arguments raised by Calvinists.

Careful examination of the context of Romans 9 reveals that Paul was explaining God’s right to predetermine and use the nation of Israel to produce the Messiah. The Jews profited greatly from this arrangement; however, such a relationship did not guarantee God’s mercy unto salvation. God maintained and exercised His right to use nations to accomplish His promise to Abraham, and furthermore, He demonstrated His prerogative to save individuals as He deemed best. As long as Israel would seek to establish their own righteousness by the law of Moses, over-emphasizing their national part in God’s plan, they would fail to be saved. God’s promise for mercy was ultimately extended to whomever would live by faith, not necessarily those who required the law of Moses, nor necessarily those who descended from Abraham.

The spiritual salvation of individuals, especially a predestined, unconditional election, is not the subject of Romans 9. Vindication of God’s judgment regarding the nation of Israel is the primary point. However, detailed analysis of the immediate context, plus the context of the Old Testament passages, which Paul quoted, clearly teaches that God’s mercy has always been conditioned upon man's repentance.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Sounds good but TOTALLY FALSE. This has no biblical basis whatsoever.

Those who believe -- those who obey the Gospel -- are elected and predestined for perfection. TO BE CONFORMED TO THE IMAGE OF GOD'S SON. Glorified and perfected (Rom 8:29,30; 1 John 3:1-3, and many other passages).

Do you think all of those who lived and died before the gospels were written are going to hell? What about the thief on the cross? What about John the Baptist? None of these herd the gospel.

 

[7seasrekeyed]

Rom 9

"for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls, it was said to her, “THE OLDER WILL SERVE THE YOUNGER.” Just as it is written, “JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED.”"

and nothing to say about the proof MacArthur believes you are saved even if you take the mark of the beast?

hello?

 

[Nehemiah6]

Do you think all of those who lived and died before the gospels were written are going to hell? What about the thief on the cross? What about John the Baptist? None of these herd the gospel.

Beginning with Abel, God tells us all about those who were JUSTIFIED BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH. Kindly read and study Hebrews 11. The Gospel is found throughout the Bible and it was preached even in the wilderness to the Israelites.

HEBREWS 3 & 4
7 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,
8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.
10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.
11 So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)
12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.
16 For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses.
17 But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?
18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?
19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.
1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
2 For unto us was the Gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the Word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

Would there be any warning about not hardening hearts if grace were irresistible?

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Beginning with Abel, God tells us all about those who were JUSTIFIED BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH. Kindly read and study Hebrews 11. The Gospel is found throughout the Bible and it was preached even in the wilderness to the Israelites.

HEBREWS 3 & 4
7 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,
8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.
10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.
11 So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)
12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.
16 For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses.
17 But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?
18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?
19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.
1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
2 For unto us was the Gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the Word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

Would there be any warning about not hardening hearts if grace were irresistible?

So you are affirming that the thief on the cross heard the Gospel? Also that John the Baptist heard, who was born of the Holy Ghost while still in his mother's womb?

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Beginning with Abel, God tells us all about those who were JUSTIFIED BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH. Kindly read and study Hebrews 11. The Gospel is found throughout the Bible and it was preached even in the wilderness to the Israelites.

HEBREWS 3 & 4
7 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,
8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.
10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.
11 So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)
12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.
16 For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses.
17 But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?
18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?
19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.
1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
2 For unto us was the Gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the Word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

Would there be any warning about not hardening hearts if grace were irresistible?

The key is "Today if you will hear his voice". Only God's sheep hear his voice. The natural man cannot understand his voice and thinks that it is foolishness.

 

[7seasrekeyed]

"Nehemiah6, post: 4054208, member: 258921"]Beginning with Abel, God tells us all about those who were JUSTIFIED BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH. Kindly read and study Hebrews 11. The Gospel is found throughout the Bible and it was preached even in the wilderness to the Israelites.

HEBREWS 3 & 4
7 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,
8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.
10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.
11 So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)
12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.
16 For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses.
17 But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?
18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?
19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.
1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
2 For unto us was the Gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the Word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

Would there be any warning about not hardening hearts if grace were irresistible?

that does seem to be the logical conclusion

but it doesn't fit the calvin mindset

 

[ForestGreenCook]

"Nehemiah6, post: 4054208, member: 258921"]Beginning with Abel, God tells us all about those who were JUSTIFIED BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH. Kindly read and study Hebrews 11. The Gospel is found throughout the Bible and it was preached even in the wilderness to the Israelites.

HEBREWS 3 & 4
7 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,
8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.
10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.
11 So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)
12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.
16 For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses.
17 But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?
18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?
19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.
1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
2 For unto us was the Gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the Word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.




that does seem to be the logical conclusion

but it doesn't fit the calvin mindset

Entering into his rest does not mean entering into heaven. There is therefore a rest unto (WHO) The people of God, not the natural man that cannot discern the things of the Spirit.

 

[notuptome]

Entering into his rest does not mean entering into heaven. There is therefore a rest unto (WHO) The people of God, not the natural man that cannot discern the things of the Spirit.

It does not mean just sittng back and propping up your feet while sipping a glass of iced tea. God gives rest from our labors of endeavoring to establish our own righteousness. We rest complete in the righteousness of Christ.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[ForestGreenCook]

It does not mean just sittng back and propping up your feet while sipping a glass of iced tea. God gives rest from our labors of endeavoring to establish our own righteousness. We rest complete in the righteousness of Christ.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Roger, I have no doubt that you are one of the elect by the evidence that you display, however, I do not think that you are understanding the full gospel, which should be no surprise to you. The church is where we find Christ's kingdom. There can be two children of God setting in the church and one of them is in the kingdom and the other is not. The one that is in the kingdom is also experiencing the rest and may have tears of joy streaming down his face because, Eph 2:6, he has raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus. When the preached word bears witness with the law written in our hearts, then we are lifted up. We are not always lifted up and do not enjoy eating at the king's table or being in that rest. 2 Sam 9:13 Mephibosheth is an example of God's children, who are contrite and crippled and have those two witness and are eating at the king's table. I am sure that you probably see it differently, but that is the way I see that rest.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

It does not mean just sittng back and propping up your feet while sipping a glass of iced tea. God gives rest from our labors of endeavoring to establish our own righteousness. We rest complete in the righteousness of Christ.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Your explanation may be right, but I get a lot of comfort in my explanation. It is true that there is a deliverance (salvation) when we see and understand that we do have the imputed righteousness of Christ and no more have to go about trying to establish our own righteousness by out good works. Romans 10: 1-2-3, explains that nicely.

 

[7seasrekeyed]

Entering into his rest does not mean entering into heaven. There is therefore a rest unto (WHO) The people of God, not the natural man that cannot discern the things of the Spirit.

right

well at least you know what's wrong with your renderings

 

[ForestGreenCook]

right

well at least you know what's wrong with your renderings

And that is your only explanation?

 

[7seasrekeyed]

And that is your only explanation?

for you?

sounds good to me

I charge for actually analyzing

 

[ForestGreenCook]

for you?

sounds good to me

I charge for actually analyzing

But I thought your purpose for being on the forum was to expose my supposedly false statements. I guess I was wrong.

 

[Melach]

that does seem to be the logical conclusion

but it doesn't fit the calvin mindset

calvinism applied to real life:

"hey johnny, make sure you remember to lift that bridge and carry it with you to work"
"you better dunk a basketball to the moon or you are fired"
"dont you dare exhale and inhale today"

all these have in common is: impossible.

please people think about it. common sense is not sin. and its nothing to laugh at when i say common sense. why God tells us not to harden our hearts if calvinism is true? it doesnt make any sense

 

[7seasrekeyed]

But I thought your purpose for being on the forum was to expose my supposedly false statements. I guess I was wrong.

huh

I must be prophetic then because I have been here much longer than have you

thanks for finally showing up so my purpose for being here is fulfilled

 

[ForestGreenCook]

huh

I must be prophetic then because I have been here much longer than have you

thanks for finally showing up so my purpose for being here is fulfilled

You don't converse, you just poke fun.

 

[notuptome]

You don't converse, you just poke fun.

The same could well be said of you. You do not converse but harp on verses that you misunderstand and to which you apply private interpretation.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[cv5]

calvinism applied to real life:

"hey johnny, make sure you remember to lift that bridge and carry it with you to work"
"you better dunk a basketball to the moon or you are fired"
"dont you dare exhale and inhale today"

all these have in common is: impossible.

please people think about it. common sense is not sin. and its nothing to laugh at when i say common sense. why God tells us not to harden our hearts if calvinism is true? it doesnt make any sense

Why? Only the elect heed God's exhortation and warnings. Because they are foreordained for sanctification and glorification.