Is unconditional election biblical?

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Is unconditional election biblical?

  • Yes, unconditional election is biblical.

    Votes: 23 43.4%
  • No , unconditional election is not biblical.

    Votes: 27 50.9%
  • I don't know.

    Votes: 3 5.7%

  • Total voters
    53

Grandpa

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Jun 24, 2011
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Jesus died for all, not for the elect. God is not a capricious deity that created people for the simple delight of hating them into hell. I cannot trust that kind of God because His nature would be flawed. Either He is eternal love (agape), or He is not (1Jn 4:16, 19)
Jesus only died for the elect. For those that are Saved by Him.

For those who are not Saved the Lords Death gives them no blessings.


You are basically saying you can't trust a God you can't control by your own understanding. While that may be true, perhaps you can't trust a God you can't control, it doesn't change the fact that God does what He Wills not what mankind wills.


God Chose Israel and rejected Egypt. God Chose Israel and rejected Canaan. God Chose Jacob and rejected Esau.

God Chooses people and rejects other people all throughout the bible. Not because certain people are inherently good and other people are inherently bad, but because God Elects, God chooses and that's the Way He Works.

The bible tells you this explicitly!

Romans 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
 

notuptome

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Jesus only died for the elect. For those that are Saved by Him.

For those who are not Saved the Lords Death gives them no blessings.


You are basically saying you can't trust a God you can't control by your own understanding. While that may be true, perhaps you can't trust a God you can't control, it doesn't change the fact that God does what He Wills not what mankind wills.


God Chose Israel and rejected Egypt. God Chose Israel and rejected Canaan. God Chose Jacob and rejected Esau.

God Chooses people and rejects other people all throughout the bible. Not because certain people are inherently good and other people are inherently bad, but because God Elects, God chooses and that's the Way He Works.

The bible tells you this explicitly!

Romans 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
Yet Adam chose to sin and God did not choose for him.

Christ died for the ungodly. His death is sufficient for all to be saved. Not all will be saved because man has a will that he is able to exercise against God. Man was created in the image and likeness of God not equal to God made with a will to serve God.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

ForestGreenCook

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so I guess I am not going to get an answer to this post from p.22...in response to a post directed at me by posthuman?

well, since this thread is not actually about discussing scripture in general, but rather the position taken by Calvin, I am surprised that anyone would think myself or another have somehow strayed off the op or prefer to discuss personalities when the truth is, the thread has a specific topic that has been discussed

no need to be unpleasant

do you believe that some are predestined for heaven and others are predestined to go to hell?

with no choice

that is predestination according to Calvin

that is the gist of the teaching and everything else skirts the issue it would seem

I do not believe those things

you sound more reasonsable in what you are saying then did Calvin

Calvin is represented by the TULIP teaching or 5 points of Calvinism as they are referred to that have been discussed ad infinitum in this forum

There are five main points to Calvinism spelled out by the TULIP acronymn:
  • Total Depravity/Inability
    • This is saying that man is hopelessly sinful. Man is incapable of being "good." Any "good" deed is truly motivated by something evil. The rest of the four points rely on this point.
  • Unconditional Election
    • This is what I find outrageous. Since man is totally evil, man's salvation is completely dependant upon God. This part is somewhat biblical; God chooses who he chooses. No matter how hard man tries, his actions alone cannot get him into heaven; God is the only one who has control. However, I believe that God will save those whose hearts are totally dedicated to Him, thus granting some influence to man. Afterall, God is just. However, calvinists see it otherwise. Calvinists believe that man has no free spiritual will.
  • Limited Atonement
    • Since God predestined the elect, Jesus paid only for those few elect.
  • Irresistible Grace
    • The elect have no choice about being elect. The elect cannot resist God's grace.
  • Perseverence of the Saints
    • Calvinists believe that once you're saved, you're always saved since God had predestined the elect and the elect have no choice about being elect.

the above explained by someone (not me) who is obviously not a Calvinist (hence the outrageous sentiment under the 'U')

a person could be OSAS I would think, without that automatically placing them in the TULIP category, but limited atonement flies in the face of 'whosoever will' and while there seem to be a good many OSASers around, I think few actually think God creates people to send them to hell WITH NO CHOICE or take them to be with Himself WITH NO CHOICE

since you say you have not read much by Calvin, I am posting the above since this is what Calvinism is and the rest is just a wardrobe change ;)

Calvinism hinges on TULIP...not OSAS

noticed you just directed a 3rd post to me...will read it later, perhaps in the meantime we can discuss 'tulips' :)

so I guess the above is all a mute point now. good. it speaks for itself anyway :rolleyes:
In my interpretation of the scriptures, most of the human race are the elect, not just a few.
 

notuptome

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In my interpretation of the scriptures, most of the human race are the elect, not just a few.
The only peoples described as elect in the scriptures would be Israel also know as the Jews. Gentiles are not considered elect as a people.

Elect today would be those who have received Christ as personal Savior.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

ForestGreenCook

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Pathetic to say the least. Hebrew culture believed in the sovereignty of God in every event of life, yet they omitted the details. So, whatever happened to anyone at all, whether they died of a sickness or in an accident, the Hebrews would take that as the hand of God. God is love, He is not a murderer but a redeemer.
Each of us have our own interpretations of the scriptures. I try to keep in mind that all scriptures must harmonize before you are able to understand the doctrine that Jesus taught.
 

ForestGreenCook

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The only peoples described as elect in the scriptures would be Israel also know as the Jews. Gentiles are not considered elect as a people.

Elect today would be those who have received Christ as personal Savior.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
All Israel is not of Israel. God changed Jacob's name to be no more called Jacob but to be called Israel. God choose Jacob over Esau to show that his election might stand. Jacob is representative of God's elect which were chosen before God formed the world, not on the basis of who would choose Christ because God foresaw that no one would choose him. Jesus instructed his Apostles to go and preach the gospel to the lost sheep (God's born again children) of the house Israel (Jacob as Israel, not the whole nation of Israel). Jacob"s Israel is secure in their eternal deliverance but most of them do not fully understand the gospel (that they have the imputed righteousness of Christ) and are going about trying to establish their own righteousness by their good works.
 

ForestGreenCook

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The only peoples described as elect in the scriptures would be Israel also know as the Jews. Gentiles are not considered elect as a people.

Elect today would be those who have received Christ as personal Savior.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
Do you have a verse that says the Gentiles are not considered elect as a people? Rev 5:9 And they sang a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof, for thou wast slain, and has redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation.
 

ForestGreenCook

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Yet Adam chose to sin and God did not choose for him.

Christ died for the ungodly. His death is sufficient for all to be saved. Not all will be saved because man has a will that he is able to exercise against God. Man was created in the image and likeness of God not equal to God made with a will to serve God.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
God has granted that man has a free choice in how he wants to live his life here in this world, but God is sovereign, without man's consent, in choosing man's eternal salvation. Man messed up big time by the choices he made in the fact that man choose not to seek God (Psalms 53:2). Israel begged God to give them a king and we know from scripture that was a bad choice. Man will never choose the right things without God's intervention.
 

Whispered

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Jesus only died for the elect. For those that are Saved by Him.

For those who are not Saved the Lords Death gives them no blessings.


You are basically saying you can't trust a God you can't control by your own understanding. While that may be true, perhaps you can't trust a God you can't control, it doesn't change the fact that God does what He Wills not what mankind wills.


God Chose Israel and rejected Egypt. God Chose Israel and rejected Canaan. God Chose Jacob and rejected Esau.

God Chooses people and rejects other people all throughout the bible. Not because certain people are inherently good and other people are inherently bad, but because God Elects, God chooses and that's the Way He Works.

The bible tells you this explicitly!

Romans 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
Which one are you?
 

Whispered

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Romans 11:25 25I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in,

Romans 9:24-29 24even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles? 25As he says in Hosea: "I will call them 'my people' who are not my people; and I will call her 'my loved one' who is not my loved one," 26and, "In the very place where it was said to them, 'You are not my people,' there they will be called 'children of the living God.'" 27Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: "Though the number of the Israelites be like the sand by the sea, only the remnant will be saved. 28For the LORD will carry out his sentence on earth with speed and finality." 29It is just as Isaiah said previously: "Unless the LORD Almighty had left us descendants, we would have become like Sodom, we would have been like Gomorrah."
 

Whispered

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Calvinists never know because one must endure to the end.😉
It reminds me of that old Roman Catholic Heaven joke. Just substitute Calvinist where applicable.

A man passes away in a tragic car accident and finds himself standing before the gate of Heaven and Saint Peter.
I'm dead? The man asks, incredulous. "Yes", Peter replies. "Let me give you the tour." Peter stretches out his hand and the man takes it and they proceed through the gates.
The man is astonished at the sights he'd only till then imagined of Heaven. Peter is explaining the layout. Peter points across a meadow and says, over there are all of your friends from your childhood till the moment you died. Here are the accommodations you'll enjoy. Peter points and the man see's mansions dotting the landscape.

Peter explained the peoples from all denominations on earth are there together. There are even animals and the man's pets who passed in his lifetime.
Finally they follow a curve in the road and there before the man is a wall. It's huge! Reaching all the way up and out of sight.
The man is curious so he asks Peter. What's with the wall?
Peter smiles gently and replies, that's the wall that surrounds the Calvinist community. They believe they're the only one's here.



The harmonizing of scripture argument grows pale in this thread when the one that repeatedly invokes that is all over the place with his theology.

As pertains to Calvinists and how do they know they're actually those elect they believe have exclusive privilege to Salvation and Heaven, there's the canon's that make them certain I suppose.
You can find this discussion here.

"...The Westminster Confession of Faith says in chapter 18:

This certainty is not a bare conjectural and probable persuasion grounded upon a fallible hope; but an infallible assurance of faith founded upon the divine truth of the promises of salvation, the inward evidence of those graces unto which these promises are made, the testimony of the Spirit of adoption witnessing with our spirits that we are the children of God, which Spirit is the earnest of our inheritance, whereby we are sealed to the day of redemption.​

Similarly, the Belgic Confession says in article 24:

So we would always be in doubt, tossed back and forth without any certainty, and our poor consciences would be tormented constantly if they did not rest on the merit of the suffering and death of our Savior.​

And the Canons of Dort say in articles 12 and 13 of section 1:

Assurance of their eternal and unchangeable election to salvation is given to the chosen in due time, though by various stages and in differing measure. Such assurance comes not by inquisitive searching into the hidden and deep things of God, but by noticing within themselves, with spiritual joy and holy delight, the unmistakable fruits of election pointed out in God’s Word—such as a true faith in Christ, a childlike fear of God, a godly sorrow for their sins, a hunger and thirst for righteousness, and so on.​
In their awareness and assurance of this election, God’s children daily find greater cause to humble themselves before God, to adore the fathomless depth of God’s mercies, to cleanse themselves, and to give fervent love in return to the One who first so greatly loved them. This is far from saying that this teaching concerning election, and reflection upon it, make God’s children lax in observing his commandments or carnally self-assured. By God’s just judgment this does usually happen to those who casually take for granted the grace of election or engage in idle and brazen talk about it but are unwilling to walk in the ways of the chosen.​

So we see several sources of assurance:

  • Westminster points to "the divine truth of the promises of salvation," and the Belgic Confession specifies "the merit of the suffering and death of our Savior" upon which those promises rest. Westminster cites these Scriptures for support:

Hebrews 6:11 But we passionately want each of you to demonstrate the same eagerness for the fulfillment of your hope until the end. 17 In the same way God wanted to demonstrate more clearly to the heirs of the promise that his purpose was unchangeable, and so he intervened with an oath, 18 so that we who have found refuge in him may find strong encouragement to hold fast to the hope set before us through two unchangeable things, since it is impossible for God to lie. 19 We have this hope as an anchor for the soul, sure and steadfast, which reaches inside behind the curtain​

  • Westminster continues, "the inward evidence of those graces unto which these promises are made," specified by Dort as "a true faith in Christ, a childlike fear of God, a godly sorrow for their sins, a hunger and thirst for righteousness, and so on," and Westminster cites:

2 Peter 1:4 Through these things he has bestowed on us his precious and most magnificent promises, so that by means of what was promised you may become partakers of the divine nature, after escaping the worldly corruption that is produced by evil desire. 5 For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith excellence, to excellence, knowledge. 10 Therefore, brothers and sisters, make every effort to be sure of your calling and election. For by doing this you will never stumble into sin. 11 For thus an entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, will be richly provided for you.​
1 John 2:3 Now by this we know that we have come to know God: if we keep his commandments.​
1 John 3:14 We know that we have crossed over from death to life because we love our fellow Christians. The one who does not love remains in death.​
2 Corinthians 1:12 For our reason for confidence is this: the testimony of our conscience, that with pure motives and sincerity which are from God—not by human wisdom but by the grace of God—we conducted ourselves in the world, and all the more toward you.​

  • Westminster wraps it up with, "The testimony of the Spirit of adoption witnessing with our spirits that we are the children of God," referring to Romans 8:15-16, "which Spirit is the earnest of our inheritance, whereby we are sealed to the day of redemption," citing these verses:

Ephesians 1:13 And when you heard the word of truth (the gospel of your salvation)—when you believed in Christ—you were marked with the seal of the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the down payment of our inheritance, until the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of his glory.​
Ephesians 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.​
2 Corinthians 1:21 But it is God who establishes us together with you in Christ and who anointed us, 22 who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a down payment.​
Unstable Grounds of Assurance

Unfortunately, people often seek means of assurance that will fail them. One way is by searching deeply into the hidden things of God. Another is by looking primarily to yourself, rather than to Christ.

As you'll recall, the Canons of Dort said, "Assurance comes not by inquisitive searching into the hidden and deep things of God." Many people agonize, "Is my name in the book of life? Did God's decree include me? Am I elect?" In so agonizing, they may never reach any kind of assurance, because they are looking in the wrong place. The Bible and the reformed confessions teach that the "hidden things belong to God" (Deuteronomy 29:29). Theologians of every era caution that believers shouldn't inquire too deeply into God's hidden will, but into his revealed will. God has given promises and he has revealed means of "making your calling sure." He has not given us a copy of the book of life, for us to inquire directly into whether our name or our un-evangelized neighbor's name is there. He's made it more complicated for us by requiring a life of discipleship. "

More reading here:
Do Calvinists believe they know whether they are saved?
 

Whispered

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The only peoples described as elect in the scriptures would be Israel also know as the Jews. Gentiles are not considered elect as a people.

Elect today would be those who have received Christ as personal Savior.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
I think it comes down to, who to believe? John Calvin, those past doctrinal patriarchs that promoted unconditional election in their reformed theology, or God?
“For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe.” The Book of 1st Timothy chapter 4 verse 10

It is a matter of comparing what Jesus did , when He knew His mission to earth, to what RT doctrine claims He was purposed to do. Die for the redetermined elect only and no one else.
If that were true, Jesus would not have been beneifient to all people. Even a Roman who begged Him to heal his sick daughter. Jesus, being a Jew, would not have counted as righteousness unto her the Samaritan woman's faith when He met her at the well. Because in His time Jews and Samaritans did not get along. And all the other things Jesus did, including telling His Disciples that while He'd come only to save the lost sheep of the house of Israel, that He had other sheep that were not of that flock, meaning Gentiles.

Matthew 9:35 35Jesus went through all the towns and villages, teaching in their synagogues, proclaiming the good news of the kingdom and healing every disease and sickness.

Matthew 4:23 23Jesus went throughout Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, proclaiming the good news of the kingdom, and healing every disease and sickness among the people.

Matthew 28:18-20 18Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."
 

notuptome

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May 17, 2013
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Do you have a verse that says the Gentiles are not considered elect as a people? Rev 5:9 And they sang a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof, for thou wast slain, and has redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation.
Rev 5:9? Not even remotely applicable to what you want to say. Does not say that Gentiles are elect as Israel was elect. You just cannot go about willy-nilly tagging folks elect in biblical terms.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
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113
God has granted that man has a free choice in how he wants to live his life here in this world, but God is sovereign, without man's consent, in choosing man's eternal salvation. Man messed up big time by the choices he made in the fact that man choose not to seek God (Psalms 53:2). Israel begged God to give them a king and we know from scripture that was a bad choice. Man will never choose the right things without God's intervention.
Oh my. Man can choose in life but cannot respond to Christ?

God intervenes in every mans life.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
Sep 1, 2019
64
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Wyoming
Jesus only died for the elect. For those that are Saved by Him.

For those who are not Saved the Lords Death gives them no blessings.


You are basically saying you can't trust a God you can't control by your own understanding. While that may be true, perhaps you can't trust a God you can't control, it doesn't change the fact that God does what He Wills not what mankind wills.


God Chose Israel and rejected Egypt. God Chose Israel and rejected Canaan. God Chose Jacob and rejected Esau.

God Chooses people and rejects other people all throughout the bible. Not because certain people are inherently good and other people are inherently bad, but because God Elects, God chooses and that's the Way He Works.

The bible tells you this explicitly!

Romans 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
Your interpretation of Romans 9:11 is flawed because you have failed in recognizing the scriptures as a whole. One isolated verse taken out of context is not sufficient to dictate doctrine. I'm providing a couple of examples besides the welll known scripture of Jn 3:16,

2 Peter 3:9 (NASB95)
9"The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance."


1 Timothy 2:3–4 (NASB95)
3 "This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."


Titus 2:11 (NASB95)
11 "For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men."

By the way, would you like to comment on these scriptures ane explain why they are not true?
 

Whispered

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Rev 5:9? Not even remotely applicable to what you want to say. Does not say that Gentiles are elect as Israel was elect. You just cannot go about willy-nilly tagging folks elect in biblical terms.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
Offered for reference sake.
The Book of Revelation chapter 5
9 And they sing a new song, saying,

Worthy art thou to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and didst purchase unto God with thy blood men of every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation,