Are the Ends always justified by the Means?

[Roughsoul1991]

the end justifies the means

• phrase
  Morally wrong actions are sometimes necessary to achieve morally right outcomes; actions can only be considered morally right or wrong by virtue of the morality of the outcome.

(Example: the torturing of terrorist prisoners.)


** I dont justify or currently defend the idea. I am just curious to hear the response from believers as I often here this idea from the atheists or secular humanists.**

Secular humanism is a philosophy or life stance that embraces human reason, secular ethics, and philosophical naturalism while specifically rejecting religious dogma, supernaturalism, and superstition as the basis of morality and decision making

 

[Locoponydirtman]

the end justifies the means

• phrase
  Morally wrong actions are sometimes necessary to achieve morally right outcomes; actions can only be considered morally right or wrong by virtue of the morality of the outcome.

(Example: the torturing of terrorist prisoners.)


** I dont justify or currently defend the idea. I am just curious to hear the response from believers as I often here this idea from the atheists or secular humanists.**

Secular humanism is a philosophy or life stance that embraces human reason, secular ethics, and philosophical naturalism while specifically rejecting religious dogma, supernaturalism, and superstition as the basis of morality and decision making

The answer is some times but not always. I generally oppose torture or mistreatment of people in any way.
Terrorists are a special kind of evil that needs be stamped out. (Not that it is a reality that it will ever be stamped out).
I don't think torture really helps much in this goal, as much as use massive force against the supporters of terrorism, and execute terrorists.

 

[morefaithrequired]

I would go no. Wonder if I need to think about it further? No I don't. Yeah I'll settle for no.
No.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

The answer is some times but not always. I generally oppose torture or mistreatment of people in any way.
Terrorists are a special kind of evil that needs be stamped out. (Not that it is a reality that it will ever be stamped out).
I don't think torture really helps much in this goal, as much as use massive force against the supporters of terrorism, and execute terrorists.

The idea isnt just directed at torture but just a example so I am clear.

But could you go in further detail about your statement as quoted below.

The answer is some times but not always.

 

[morefaithrequired]

I think we need more examples. Quakers might argue that war is unnecessary in the first place. Therefore torture can be avoided.
Perhaps telling lies is an easier example.
I might justify telling someone how young they look if they were depressed and needed cheering up. Discreet deception happens in life on a daily basis. It hekps smooth relations. The brutal truth doesnt respect peoples feelings.

 

[Dooms]

An evil means brings about an evil end.

 

[Locoponydirtman]

The idea isnt just directed at torture but just a example so I am clear.

But could you go in further detail about your statement as quoted below.

If you can directly save lives by taking actions that is not what one would say are acceptable then the greater good is the coarse of action.
Example, I know it's still holding to the torcher idea, but say you have in your possession a human trafficker and you know he knows where some captive people are then I say what ever is necessary to rescue those people. I can't think of anything else that fits.
I don't count softening the truth to spare feelings, a great moral dilemma. As long as it's not of mortal importance. I wouldn't compromise the Gospel or the consequences of sin.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

I think we need more examples. Quakers might argue that war is unnecessary in the first place. Therefore torture can be avoided.
Perhaps telling lies is an easier example.
I might justify telling someone how young they look if they were depressed and needed cheering up. Discreet deception happens in life on a daily basis. It hekps smooth relations. The brutal truth doesnt respect peoples feelings.

So your saying if a Nazi German barged into your house looking for families of Jews and you have a family hidden in your attic. It is okay to lie to bring about the greatest good?

 

[morefaithrequired]

So your saying if a Nazi German barged into your house looking for families of Jews and you have a family hidden in your attic. It is okay to lie to bring about the greatest good?

i thought the war context had been eliminated.
I will leave such moral dilemmas to others. Chances are I wont have to face that situation.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

If you can directly save lives by taking actions that is not what one would say are acceptable then the greater good is the coarse of action.
Example, I know it's still holding to the torcher idea, but say you have in your possession a human trafficker and you know he knows where some captive people are then I say what ever is necessary to rescue those people. I can't think of anything else that fits.
I don't count softening the truth to spare feelings, a great moral dilemma. As long as it's not of mortal importance. I wouldn't compromise the Gospel or the consequences of sin.

Here is another example in the news recently. A High school school board and superintendent decided to push a new transgender policy. Basically allowing transgenders to use whatever restroom or locker room they feel identifies with their mind.

Over 900 students, parents, and residents attended the meeting to either protest or support the policy.

The next day they abandoned the position and went back to the policy that kids use the bathroom or locker room associated with their biological gender.

Not going into specifics of everything that changed their mind they did list child and faculty security and harassment reasons. Due to the superintendent also received death threats.

This is good policy but does the outcome justify the means.

(Idk if the death threats or harassment was the only reasons they changed their policy back it could of been good arguments. But for the sake of debate let's say the threat and harassment was the only reason.)

I'll share my opinion if wanted.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

i thought the war context had been eliminated.
I will leave such moral dilemmas to others. Chances are I wont have to face that situation.

Another example let's say your part of the American 1860s underground railroad helping slaves escape slavery. Would you lie or even kill to protect those innocent people from slave holders or bounty hunters?

Nothing has been eliminated. Morality is involved with all decisions. I just think it is curious to see what the Christian perspective is on such issues big or small.

Does obey the Government mean if it made illegal to have a Bible. You decide to illegally smuggle in Bibles breaking the law but the ends justify the means.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

An evil means brings about an evil end.

What is evil?

 

[Locoponydirtman]

Here is another example in the news recently. A High school school board and superintendent decided to push a new transgender policy. Basically allowing transgenders to use whatever restroom or locker room they feel identifies with their mind.

Over 900 students, parents, and residents attended the meeting to either protest or support the policy.

The next day they abandoned the position and went back to the policy that kids use the bathroom or locker room associated with their biological gender.

Not going into specifics of everything that changed their mind they did list child and faculty security and harassment reasons. Due to the superintendent also received death threats.

This is good policy but does the outcome justify the means.

(Idk if the death threats or harassment was the only reasons they changed their policy back it could of been good arguments. But for the sake of debate let's say the threat and harassment was the only reason.)

I'll share my opinion if wanted.

I saw this coming down the pipe, which is why I homeschooled my children. I chose rather than fight with unbelievers over foolishness to not participate. I also believe This would be the best coarse of action for all parents who word rather not tolerate this type of nonsense. If all believing families pulled their children from public school then the loss of funding would set their teeth on edge and they would get right.
So no the death threat is beyond acceptable, harassment is what ever, I guess that's just fine harass, protest, what ever, but death threats are over the line. Eminent danger (life threatening) of an innocent victim may warrant more extreme behavior. So I guess I still stand on some times, to degrees. To save lives in that are in peril from evil doers is different that soft selling the truth to your over weight friend who is feeling bad about their weight.
God issued a warning to Nineva that they would be over thrown to get them to repent of their evil, but he just destroyed Sodom.

 

[Dino246]

So your saying if a Nazi German barged into your house looking for families of Jews and you have a family hidden in your attic. It is okay to lie to bring about the greatest good?

If you haven't read Corrie Ten Boom's The Hiding Place, I strongly recommend it. Her family faced this situation. I'll let you read the details for yourself.

By the way, your thread title is misleading as it puts the question backwards.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

If you haven't read Corrie Ten Boom's The Hiding Place, I strongly recommend it. Her family faced this situation. I'll let you read the details for yourself.

By the way, your thread title is misleading as it puts the question backwards.

This is more or less a thought experiment to see how Christians respond in comparison to the secular humanists.

So far I guess your the only one it has misled.

 

[Dibby53]

So your saying if a Nazi German barged into your house looking for families of Jews and you have a family hidden in your attic. It is okay to lie to bring about the greatest good?

Yes. The moral thing to do here is lie. That's why I don't think there are absolute moral rules. The absolute is love. How that is applied will vary upon situation. Although as a general rule not lying may be the best course of action, in this case the deeper ethic of compassion compels you to lie.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

Yes. The moral thing to do here is lie. That's why I don't think there are absolute moral rules. The absolute is love. How that is applied will vary upon situation. Although as a general rule not lying may be the best course of action, in this case the deeper ethic of compassion compels you to lie.

I agree with most of your post except you think absolute morals don't exist but then say a absolute is love.

Either to love is a absolute or not. Jesus's said you can sum up the law with love God and love your neighbor. That is a absolute claim.

But of course Christians define love differently than the world.

 

[morefaithrequired]

Yes. The moral thing to do here is lie. That's why I don't think there are absolute moral rules. The absolute is love. How that is applied will vary upon situation. Although as a general rule not lying may be the best course of action, in this case the deeper ethic of compassion compels you to lie.

These days I tend to agree with your point of view. And I realise it is crucial how we express it.
Telling untruths should be an exception to the rule. If you are teaching kids morality and the Commandments it is better to avoid complexity.
When we mature we realise that life is not so black and white. With an "informed conscience" we can make good moral decisions. We are respecting the rules we learnt as kids but now we learn there is a bigger picture. We need to use our heart and our mind. Love and compassion become the number one priority. Now we have to be careful we are not backsliding. Or rationalising diluted decisions which dont respect the law. Jesus respected the law. So should we.

 

[Dooms]

What is evil?

If you don't know what evil is we are on separate trains of thought

 

[Roughsoul1991]

If you don't know what evil is we are on separate trains of thought

I'm asking you to define it. Not because idk but to clarify your understanding of evil. You would be surprised at how people define evil. Some think God is evil. So it is a fair question.