Is unconditional election biblical?

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Is unconditional election biblical?

  • Yes, unconditional election is biblical.

    Votes: 23 43.4%
  • No , unconditional election is not biblical.

    Votes: 27 50.9%
  • I don't know.

    Votes: 3 5.7%

  • Total voters
    53

PERFECTION

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Aug 14, 2019
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Unconditional election is used to describe the Nature of God. What you are saying here is that God knows all who will come and all who will not. You do not have , or will you ever have, permission from the Holy Spirit to venture into such a Devine court.

You should know where your relationship with God stands. Why should you wonder if your name is on a check list. If you can understand how God can be in every place at one time or how it is that He knows how many hairs are on, not only your head, but everyones head if you can answer these questions then lets talk about unconditional election.
 

Whispered

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One must read past a singular scripture in order to recognize John 6: 38 is part of a holy and sacred grace filled gift plan for which God entered the world as Christ Jesus, Emmanuel, meaning "God with us", so as to fulfill what harmonizes with John 6 and can be seen prior to that Book in the Book of John chapter 3. And particularly verse 16. Which describes Christ's purpose and the reason He was begat into this world. While John chapter 6 fully explains, through Christ's own preaching, the full import of why He is in the world.
And it all has to do with God's irrevocable grace. And Jesus' teaching that would lead those for whom it resonates to come to faith in a Salvation doctrine wherein the blood of bulls and goats and other animals , would no longer be necessary so as to repent and cover one's sin.
Rather, the blood of that final perfect unblemished lamb without sin, Jesus the Christ, would be spilled on that last sin altar, the cross, so as to cover for eternity the sins of the world. And what is required of the individual who hears this message and recognizes they are a sinner, living contrary to what God's righteous vision of them and their lives at their fullest potential that can be lived in His grace?
Crucifixion of themselves, as Jesus died?
No!
Faith! Just faith. Beliefin Jesus and what He died for and what that means and transfers unto whosoever believes in Him.

That's not work, to believe. That's trust that the creator of all things made a gift unto you that will last eternally and that He will never revoke, take back.
That is our God of the Bible!


The Book of John Chapter 6

22 On the morrow the multitude that stood on the other side of the sea saw that there was no other [e]boat there, save one, and that Jesus entered not with his disciples into the boat, but that his disciples went away alone 23 (howbeit there came [f]boats from Tiberias nigh unto the place where they ate the bread after the Lord had given thanks): 24 when the multitude therefore saw that Jesus was not there, neither his disciples, they themselves got into the [g]boats, and came to Capernaum, seeking Jesus. 25 And when they found him on the other side of the sea, they said unto him, Rabbi, when camest thou hither? 26 Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw signs, but because ye ate of the loaves, and were filled. 27 Work not for the food which perisheth, but for the food which abideth unto eternal life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him the Father, even God, hath sealed. 28 They said therefore unto him, What must we do, that we may work the works of God? 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom [h]he hath sent. 30 They said therefore unto him, What then doest thou for a sign, that we may see, and believe thee? what workest thou? 31 Our fathers ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written, He [i]gave them bread out of heaven to eat. 32 Jesus therefore said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, It was not Moses that gave you the bread out of heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread out of heaven. 33 For the bread of God is that which cometh down out of heaven, and giveth life unto the world. 34 They said therefore unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread. 35 Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall not hunger, and he that believeth on me shall never thirst. 36 But I said unto you, that ye have seen me, and yet believe not. 37 All that which the Father giveth me shall come unto me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. 38 For I am come down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. 39 And this is the will of him that sent me, that of all that which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 For this is the will of my Father, that every one that beholdeth the Son, and believeth on him, should have eternal life; and [j]I will raise him up at the last day.


Remember the Book of Genesis chapter 1, God created man in His image and likeness.

"Genesis 1:26, God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness”—the plural “Us” and “Our” denoting both God the Father and the Word who would later be born in the flesh as Jesus Christ (John 1:1-14). What is meant by God’s image and likeness here?
...The word tselem (“image”) has the sense of a statue, while demuwth (“likeness”) refers to physical resemblance. Yet, as John 4:24 John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. American King James Version × tells us, “God is spirit.” "
The Likeness of God

Now, reading just what is excerpted from that source above that tells you about God's creation of the first people, the entire human race, review what Calvinism tells you God must be as refers to image and likeness according to the God of Calvinism's creation of those humans whom He made in that image and likeness of Himself, as per Calvinism, we recall God predetermined all things before any thing came to exist. God augmented the image and likeness of man according to plan. But that can only be possible if God is that image and likeness that Total Depravity describes and then fulfills as all of humanity that came to exist after and through fallen Adam and Eve.
All men have inherited the sin of Adam through their parents and are morally unable to choose to follow God and be saved because of their own depraved, sinful nature which extends to every part of their personality.
 
7

7seasrekeyed

Guest
True.
Just the import of "Total Depravity" in the TULIP formula is enough to know Calvin was one odd duck. To imagine that is what people were created first to be by God.
Total Depravity = All men have inherited the sin of Adam through their parents and are morally unable to choose to follow God and be saved because of their own depraved, sinful nature which extends to every part of their personality.

Wouldn't you agree that people who you've met that are kind hearted, generous, compassionate, loving, are examples that definition of people is greatly flawed?
What the devout to Calvin's idea of God don't appear to get, because there are still Calvinists in the world hoping to lead people to believe John's ideas, is that the TULIP that coincides with Calvinism describes the qualities of a Devil. Not a benevolent Father.

I would think some of Calvin's murderous desires stemmed from his 'total depravity' renderings and gave him freedom to do the horrendous things he did

look at it from his point of view: since God has already condemmed these people to hell, God will be pleased I help them get there

kind of like ethnic cleansing...but spiritual in his mind

it is a very sick conversation a person would have to have with themself, after supposedly reading the NT, and concluding that killing someone because their doctrine was different, is justifiable

there is no room in Calvinism for any sort of reasoning or discussion...yet God states 'let us reason together' with reference to the cleansing blood of Jesus

I totally agree with your conclusion that 'tulip' describes another spirit, that of the devil who comes as an angel of light

I am currently wondering if Calvin already had murderous intentions in his heart and therefore believed the lies that he believed, or if that occured after he fell for the lies...either way, a person has to have something in their makeup that would lead them that way because the Bible states we are tempted by our own lusts and led away by them, whether or not there is a demonic element to it.

actually I believe the demonic will enter in, if you are already persuaded of the things that the lying spirits will tell you are of God

there is a progression of being led into deception that is documented in the NT

I would tend to think that Calvin had already conceived of murder in his heart and was ripe to believe such deception
 

Whispered

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As closely as you seem to follow my posts, you must have overlooked the fact that I believe the scriptures to teach that God did, indeed, give man the freedom to choose how he wants to live his life here on earth, but that man has no choice in his eternal destination, that is strictly by God's choice and not man's. All scriptures must harmonize.
It does. It always has.
The conflict is your doctrine is not able to harmonize with what scriptures actually teach.
 

ForestGreenCook

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Read John 1:9-14. John 6:38 in context has nothing to say in support of Jesus only dying those you see as elect. Post facto elect.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
OK, let's play your thinking and say that "all that the Father gave" does not say that the "all' is the elect. Do you maintain that the "all" is all of mankind, if so, will all mankind go to heaven, without the lose of even one? Do you take in consideration that all of the scriptures must harmonize in order to understand the doctrine that Jesus taught? There is a light that lighteth all men and there is a "light of life". John 8:12, Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world; "he that FOLLOWETH me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have "the light of life". Matt 7:14, Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto LIFE (not eternal, but a life we live here in this world of comfort, joy peace, and security) and few there be that find it.
 

JesusLives

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Oct 11, 2013
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Unconditional election is the second doctrine of grace that I would like to cover.

I would like to say that the interaction on this forum concerning Reformed theology has, in fact, entrenched me even deeper, and incited me to do a quick review on the topic.

In fact, I think the doctrines are even more important now.

Why?

Predestination is a major teaching within Reformed theology. God doesn't simply provide his revelation about irrelevant teachings.

Why is predestination important?

1) it inspires praise. Realizing that God has chosen the elect since the foundation of the earth should cause believers to rejoice. We see Paul referring
to election as a reason for praise in Ephesians 1.
2) it inspires courage. Realizing that God is in control, and is not some weak, emasculated idol who is not in control inspires those who are in
covenant with him.
3) it humbles prideful, sinful man, who is forced to realize that God is the potter, and humans are the clay. That is one of the messages of Romans 9.
Man-centered theology makes me retch.

Anyways, the poll is simply, is unconditional election biblical? I will present several biblical texts to support my contention that it is.

True honest question here....

What exactly do you mean by unconditional election? What I mean is are you saying that our destiny is determined by God from the beginning and it doesn't matter what we do we are either saved or lost because it was predetermined?
 

Whispered

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I would think some of Calvin's murderous desires stemmed from his 'total depravity' renderings and gave him freedom to do the horrendous things he did

look at it from his point of view: since God has already condemmed these people to hell, God will be pleased I help them get there

kind of like ethnic cleansing...but spiritual in his mind

it is a very sick conversation a person would have to have with themself, after supposedly reading the NT, and concluding that killing someone because their doctrine was different, is justifiable

there is no room in Calvinism for any sort of reasoning or discussion...yet God states 'let us reason together' with reference to the cleansing blood of Jesus

I totally agree with your conclusion that 'tulip' describes another spirit, that of the devil who comes as an angel of light

I am currently wondering if Calvin already had murderous intentions in his heart and therefore believed the lies that he believed, or if that occured after he fell for the lies...either way, a person has to have something in their makeup that would lead them that way because the Bible states we are tempted by our own lusts and led away by them, whether or not there is a demonic element to it.

actually I believe the demonic will enter in, if you are already persuaded of the things that the lying spirits will tell you are of God

there is a progression of being led into deception that is documented in the NT

I would tend to think that Calvin had already conceived of murder in his heart and was ripe to believe such deception
I would agree. No better weapon does one have in their arsenal than to perform all manner of evils and excuse, God said it is righteousness to do.

Look at the histories behind the various Inquisitions that were prosecuted across the world. All imagined to be ordained by God.

I think you can tell who a person is by what they hold sacred. Take a moment to search Calvin's most ardent teacher, John MacArthur, where he dedicates from the pulpit entire sermons to condemning certain Christian pastors that drew his ire. One, an Evangelical as I recall, MacArthur called his followers to go to war against.

When John Calvin penned this, I believe him. I think also it explains the entrenched devotion of persons like John MacArthur, who will not be swayed by the Gospel truth, but cling to Calvin's beliefs.



Imagine the satisfaction of the most angry of persons who would cleave to that as a God given fact. All their enemies may get their goat in this life, but to believe those same people are predestined to be destroyed when in soul form?
It's like that old saying. You know you've made God in your own image and likeness when He hates all the same people you do.
 

notuptome

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OK, let's play your thinking and say that "all that the Father gave" does not say that the "all' is the elect. Do you maintain that the "all" is all of mankind, if so, will all mankind go to heaven, without the lose of even one? Do you take in consideration that all of the scriptures must harmonize in order to understand the doctrine that Jesus taught? There is a light that lighteth all men and there is a "light of life". John 8:12, Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world; "he that FOLLOWETH me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have "the light of life". Matt 7:14, Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto LIFE (not eternal, but a life we live here in this world of comfort, joy peace, and security) and few there be that find it.
This is no game. God sends His light into the uttermost parts of the world to draw men to Christ. Will all come? No but God still calls them. John 3:15-21 stands as testament to Gods universal call and mans choosing to receive or reject.

Those that respond and come to Christ are never again lost not a single one. Those that reject are sealed unto condemnation.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

ForestGreenCook

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I would think some of Calvin's murderous desires stemmed from his 'total depravity' renderings and gave him freedom to do the horrendous things he did

look at it from his point of view: since God has already condemmed these people to hell, God will be pleased I help them get there

kind of like ethnic cleansing...but spiritual in his mind

it is a very sick conversation a person would have to have with themself, after supposedly reading the NT, and concluding that killing someone because their doctrine was different, is justifiable

there is no room in Calvinism for any sort of reasoning or discussion...yet God states 'let us reason together' with reference to the cleansing blood of Jesus

I totally agree with your conclusion that 'tulip' describes another spirit, that of the devil who comes as an angel of light

I am currently wondering if Calvin already had murderous intentions in his heart and therefore believed the lies that he believed, or if that occured after he fell for the lies...either way, a person has to have something in their makeup that would lead them that way because the Bible states we are tempted by our own lusts and led away by them, whether or not there is a demonic element to it.

actually I believe the demonic will enter in, if you are already persuaded of the things that the lying spirits will tell you are of God

there is a progression of being led into deception that is documented in the NT

I would tend to think that Calvin had already conceived of murder in his heart and was ripe to believe such deception
You have a very distorted view of the elect. Do you not realize that after a person has been born again and has been given a new heart that he is born unto good works and strives to do good works? I believe that evidence shows that you are one of the elect, as are most on this forum, and I would think that you do not have murderous thoughts. I really don't think that you believe anybody that is born again would direct their thoughts in direction. I am not saying that some born again people do not do some really bad things, because that is our nature.
 

John146

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Does not harmonize with other scriptures; The natural man (1 Cor 2:14) cannot discern (believe) in the things of the Spirit, until he has been born again and given a new heart that is able to discern the things of the Spirit. (Eph 2) the natural man is "yet dead"(spiritually) when God regenerates him to be spiritually alive. The same principle applies in John 3:16; World of "believers", not "will believe".
12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
 
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7seasrekeyed

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You have a very distorted view of the elect. Do you not realize that after a person has been born again and has been given a new heart that he is born unto good works and strives to do good works? I believe that evidence shows that you are one of the elect, as are most on this forum, and I would think that you do not have murderous thoughts. I really don't think that you believe anybody that is born again would direct their thoughts in direction. I am not saying that some born again people do not do some really bad things, because that is our nature.

get out of the basement

you need some fresh air :rolleyes:
 

Whispered

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OK, let's play your thinking and say that "all that the Father gave" does not say that the "all' is the elect.
Just to , with all respect, step in to say one thing so as to play too for a moment.
Have you ever thought when Jesus said, all that the Father gave me, refers to the fruit, those for whom His good news would resonate, as that purpose for which Jesus was brought into the world? The planet didn't need salvation. All people of the world did. All people. Just as the Great Commission Christ sent His Apostles to fulfill says. Go into all the world and spread the good news.

All that the Father gave Jesus was the world that God so loved. That whosoever would turn to the teachings His only begotten Son was born to deliver would not perish in the sins they carried then, but would have immortal life.

That's all. Please proceed. ;) )exiting(
 
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7seasrekeyed

Guest
I would agree. No better weapon does one have in their arsenal than to perform all manner of evils and excuse, God said it is righteousness to do.

Look at the histories behind the various Inquisitions that were prosecuted across the world. All imagined to be ordained by God.

I think you can tell who a person is by what they hold sacred. Take a moment to search Calvin's most ardent teacher, John MacArthur, where he dedicates from the pulpit entire sermons to condemning certain Christian pastors that drew his ire. One, an Evangelical as I recall, MacArthur called his followers to go to war against.

When John Calvin penned this, I believe him. I think also it explains the entrenched devotion of persons like John MacArthur, who will not be swayed by the Gospel truth, but cling to Calvin's beliefs.



Imagine the satisfaction of the most angry of persons who would cleave to that as a God given fact. All their enemies may get their goat in this life, but to believe those same people are predestined to be destroyed when in soul form?
It's like that old saying. You know you've made God in your own image and likeness when He hates all the same people you do.

they testify of their own destruction to some extent it would seem

God alone in His mercy knows if some of these are saved

I do think some, MacArthur for instance, may actually be an enemy of God

his vitriolic lies and preaching against the life of believers in the NT, is legend

God forbid anyone should actually be filled with the Holy Spirit according to the king of the cessationists

and ALL Calvinists share in that testimony from what I have seen

one thing to be a cessationist, another to rail against all those who are not and say they are filled with demons

God help Christianity for what it values and devalues in many cases
 

ForestGreenCook

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This is no game. God sends His light into the uttermost parts of the world to draw men to Christ. Will all come? No but God still calls them. John 3:15-21 stands as testament to Gods universal call and mans choosing to receive or reject.

Those that respond and come to Christ are never again lost not a single one. Those that reject are sealed unto condemnation.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
I am not disputing the fact that God draws people, but I am disputing that God draws "ALL" people. John 6:44, says no man can come unto him unless they are drawn and he goes on to say that all who are drawn "he will raise him up at the last day" Just as Jesus affirms in John 6:38, that he will raise them all up at the last day. The "ALL" in both of these verses does not include "all mankind". All are not called and drawn, therefore, those that have not been called and drawn, are not in a position to accept or reject.
 

Whispered

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This is no game. God sends His light into the uttermost parts of the world to draw men to Christ. Will all come? No but God still calls them. John 3:15-21 stands as testament to Gods universal call and mans choosing to receive or reject.

Those that respond and come to Christ are never again lost not a single one. Those that reject are sealed unto condemnation.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
Well put.
"Those that reject are sealed unto condemnation." And that is sadly so but after they made the conscious choice to reject the Gospel.
 

ForestGreenCook

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This is no game. God sends His light into the uttermost parts of the world to draw men to Christ. Will all come? No but God still calls them. John 3:15-21 stands as testament to Gods universal call and mans choosing to receive or reject.

Those that respond and come to Christ are never again lost not a single one. Those that reject are sealed unto condemnation.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
The world in John 3:16 is the world of those who already believe, not the world of those who might or might not believe.
 

notuptome

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I am not disputing the fact that God draws people, but I am disputing that God draws "ALL" people. John 6:44, says no man can come unto him unless they are drawn and he goes on to say that all who are drawn "he will raise him up at the last day" Just as Jesus affirms in John 6:38, that he will raise them all up at the last day. The "ALL" in both of these verses does not include "all mankind". All are not called and drawn, therefore, those that have not been called and drawn, are not in a position to accept or reject.
God has not said that all who ae drawn will receive Christ. Only those who receive Christ are saved. You really need to examine your position in the light of John 3:20. You also must deal with Romans 11:32.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

notuptome

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The world in John 3:16 is the world of those who already believe, not the world of those who might or might not believe.
That is a convenient private interpretation. In context the world is all men not just a select elect few.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
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7seasrekeyed

Guest
The world in John 3:16 is the world of those who already believe, not the world of those who might or might not believe.

LOL!

if that were so, then that famous verse would have read like this:

"For God so loved only the elect, that He gave His only begotten son, that only the elect would believe in Him and not perish, unlike those predestined for hell, and have eternal life in the predestined hereafter"

BUT the Bible actually says this:

"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life."

you have a private interpretation that steps outside scripture and in fact, DISAGREES with scripture

that is a major problem with people handle the word of God and claim themsleves to be teachers and claim they have knowledge that generally, no one else can find anywhere

if you do not currently attend an actual Bible believing church at this moment, I suggest you do your best, coupled with sincere prayer, to find one and insert yourself under proper spirit-led Bible teaching


the word κόσμον that is translated 'world' from the original Greek, may also refer to the whole of creation but definately refers to THE world and not certain people in the world only

your poor poor knowledge reflects very badly for someone wanting to convince others of a position
 

Whispered

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LOL!

if that were so, then that famous verse would have read like this:

"For God so loved only the elect, that He gave His only begotten son, that only the elect would believe in Him and not perish, unlike those predestined for hell, and have eternal life in the predestined hereafter"

BUT the Bible actually says this:

"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life."

you have a private interpretation that steps outside scripture and in fact, DISAGREES with scripture

that is a major problem with people handle the word of God and claim themsleves to be teachers and claim they have knowledge that generally, no one else can find anywhere

if you do not currently attend an actual Bible believing church at this moment, I suggest you do your best, coupled with sincere prayer, to find one and insert yourself under proper spirit-led Bible teaching


the word κόσμον that is translated 'world' from the original Greek, may also refer to the whole of creation but definately refers to THE world and not certain people in the world only

your poor poor knowledge reflects very badly for someone wanting to convince others of a position
AMEN!
May FGC heed your advice and come to the Christ God sent unto all people that whosoever would believe in Him will not perish but shall have immortal life. And may God show mercy upon the soul of John Calvin. Amen, again.