Is unconditional election biblical?

[Gentle-Warrior]

God chooses based totally upon grace. In fact, he would be more likely to choose those who are lowly so that his glory can be shown more powerfully through them.

See 1 Cor 1:26ff.

Read Romans 9. He has a right to do with his creation as he pleases.

No one is worthy of the blood of Christ. He shows grace to those who he elects.

My point is, you can't create your theology based on what you think is right. God's thoughts are higher than our thoughts.

By the way, if I was going to be a wishy-washy, touchy-feely sort of guy, I would also somehow ignore the doctrine that hell is everlasting punishment. I wouldn't just stop at election. I would correct God on all points that seem unfair from a human perspective.

But I know that God is God and I am NOT. I am a human and I don't have his perspective. He does what he wants with his creation. Whether I like it or not.

And, to be honest, I think most free-willers are attempting to correct the Bible so that it suits their presuppositions.

You missed my point completely. If God chooses to save people because He does what He wants, then the cross is the biggest failure in the history of the world. Calvinism is so wrong.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

You missed my point completely. If God chooses to save people because He does what He wants, then the cross is the biggest failure in the history of the world. Calvinism is so wrong.

The Cross secures the salvation of those God has given to the Son. Therefore, it is not a failure.

He DOES do what he wants. He does all his pleasure.

Claiming God does not do all He wants is SO WRONG.

Listen to yourself.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

Gotquestions.org said that God could have given Judas a heart of repentance, but he didn't. Matt 27:3-5 says he repented himself and confesses that he had betrayed the innocent blood, so do we really know for sure? I thought you said you relied upon the scriptures and did not consider other men's interpretations. Isn't gotquestions.org Pentecostal based?

I've heard that Gotquestions.org is more or less like a Reformed perspective but I don't know. Their views are pretty much the same as mine on all but dispensationalism. They are dispensational and I am not. I occasionally read things there that I don't agree with.

I use their site when I agree with it, because it is generally well-researched and if someone asks for my view, I don't have to write a whole explanation from scratch.

I don't believe they are Pentecostals but I haven't read their things on spiritual experiences, etc.

I do rely on Scripture, but I don't think I know it all and I refer to other sound brothers in Christ, too. The Church is a community endeavor. It isn't about me and I'm not a lone ranger Christian. I almost always read Reformed authors, though, because most other types have a weak view of God's sovereignty and they annoy me.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

Gotquestions.org said that God could have given Judas a heart of repentance, but he didn't. Matt 27:3-5 says he repented himself and confesses that he had betrayed the innocent blood, so do we really know for sure? I thought you said you relied upon the scriptures and did not consider other men's interpretations. Isn't gotquestions.org Pentecostal based?

Judas didn't repent and he went to "his place".

There are two kinds of repentance. One is worldly repentance and the other is godly repentance. Judas didn't have godly repentance. He went to "his place" and was called the "son of perdition" which is basically an indication that he went to eternal punishment.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

Scripture states that one must hear the gospel. One must trust/believe the gospel. One is then sealed by the Holy Spirit.

The Gospel precedes regeneration. This much is true. However one can't exercise faith and repentance with a stony heart. It would be like trying to squeeze blood out of a turnip.

Yet, that is what decisional regeneration claims.


Decisional regeneration

Hear the gospel => faith and repentance (with a stony heart) => regeneration (new heart)

Reformed theology

Hear the gospel => regeneration (receiving a heart of flesh) => faith and repentance (with a heart of flesh)

One might view receiving the Holy Spirit a sealing, rather than strictly related to regeneration. There have been different views on that. Both would be works of the Holy Spirit though.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

The Holy Spirit draws one to the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ through the word of the gospel, yet the man must decide to trust/believe the gospel.

Every time Scripture is read to a lost person, that person is hearing the voice of God.

There is a difference between "hearing" in terms of merely hearing the words, and "hearing" that would be sinking in, and would make sense to the hearer.

The first is what we would term a "general call" and the second is what we would term an "effectual call". At the right time, the elect hear an effectual call from the LORD and they respond.

I am going to do a thread on irresistible grace and that is the focus of this doctrine.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

please see a doctor for your imaginery friend

I didn't say a thing about Judas

it must have been your imaginery friend

SMH

Your post #199.

The Holy Spirit draws one to the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ through the word of the gospel, yet the man must decide to trust/believe the gospel.

Every time Scripture is read to a lost person, that person is hearing the voice of God.

Did you read 1 Cor 2:14? If so, what is your interpretation of it?

The Holy Spirit draws one to the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ through the word of the gospel, yet the man must decide to trust/believe the gospel.

Every time Scripture is read to a lost person, that person is hearing the voice of God.

John 6:44, No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him, "AND I WILL RAISE HIM UP AT THE LAST DAY". He does not draw all mankind, otherwise, all mankind will be raised up at the last day. Does not sound like there was any deciding to trust/believe to it.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Judas didn't repent and he went to "his place".

There are two kinds of repentance. One is worldly repentance and the other is godly repentance. Judas didn't have godly repentance. He went to "his place" and was called the "son of perdition" which is basically an indication that he went to eternal punishment.

We cannot determine who the elect are, and in the same sense, we can not determine who the non-elect are.

 

[7seasrekeyed]

Your post #199.

Did you read 1 Cor 2:14? If so, what is your interpretation of it?

John 6:44, No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him, "AND I WILL RAISE HIM UP AT THE LAST DAY". He does not draw all mankind, otherwise, all mankind will be raised up at the last day. Does not sound like there was any deciding to trust/believe to it.

nope

I was quoting another and the source is in the next post

as far as your meanderings go, I really am sorry but I cannot take you seriously

the Bible calls Judas the son of perdition

you do not appear to have any sort of doctrine one can actually discuss with you

even the op is like 'whaaaa?'

 

[7seasrekeyed]

but don't take my word for it

here is Jesus own words:

Jesus said of Judas, “The Son of Man will go just as it is written about him. But woe to that man who betrays the Son of Man! It would be better for him if he had not been born” (Matthew 26:24)

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Not sure if you are talking to me, but Scripture said that he "went to his place" (Acts 1:25) and he was the "son of perdition".

Pretty easy to figure out.

By the way, that's an indication that hell, indeed, has place for humans.

https://www.gotquestions.org/son-of-perdition.html

In Acts 1:25, "place" according to Strong's hell is not indicated. i,e, location (as a position, home, tract, etc.)

 

[ForestGreenCook]

nope

I was quoting another and the source is in the next post

as far as your meanderings go, I really am sorry but I cannot take you seriously

the Bible calls Judas the son of perdition

you do not appear to have any sort of doctrine one can actually discuss with you

even the op is like 'whaaaa?'

Scripture proves scripture and they all must harmonize. I am upholding and standing in defense of the doctrine that Jesus taught, according to the scriptures. When I see a scripture misquoted, I feel obligated to prove the misquote with harmonizing scriptures. Many on this forum avoid trying to harmonize some scriptures that they do not know how to explain. In the days that Jesus taught most of the population was "like Whaaaa? at his teachings.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

In Acts 1:25, "place" according to Strong's hell is not indicated. i,e, location (as a position, home, tract, etc.)

What do you think perdition is? A vacation?

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

We cannot determine who the elect are, and in the same sense, we can not determine who the non-elect are.

Matthew 26:24-25 24 The Son of Man goes as it is written of him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been better for that man if he had not been born.” 25 Judas, who would betray him, answered, “Is it I, Rabbi?” He said to him, “You have said so.” (ESV)

I'm not going to debate Judas' fate as it is very obvious

I never met anyone who wanted to preach Judas into eternal life.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

but don't take my word for it

here is Jesus own words:

Jesus said of Judas, “The Son of Man will go just as it is written about him. But woe to that man who betrays the Son of Man! It would be better for him if he had not been born” (Matthew 26:24)

As far as that goes, we all would be better if we had not been born, according to the scripture that says (I'm paraphrasing) "the day of our death is better than the day of our birth". (Ecc 7:1).

 

[ForestGreenCook]

What do you think perdition is? A vacation?

Not my saying, but Strong's Greek interpretation.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

As far as that goes, we all would be better if we had not been born, according to the scripture that says (I'm paraphrasing) "the day of our death is better than the day of our birth". (Ecc 7:1).

That isn't what Jesus meant.

Are you for real, dude? Claiming that Judas may be in heaven (or awaiting a resurrection to glory) is probably one of the weirdest views I've heard.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Matthew 26:24-25 24 The Son of Man goes as it is written of him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been better for that man if he had not been born.” 25 Judas, who would betray him, answered, “Is it I, Rabbi?” He said to him, “You have said so.” (ESV)

I'm not going to debate Judas' fate as it is very obvious

I never met anyone who wanted to preach Judas into eternal life.

You are misquoting me. I did not say I was preaching Judas into eternal life, now did I? I said that we can not determine who the elect are and who the non-elect are. I believe you are right on, on most of your beliefs, and respect you for your dedication to proclaiming what you believe, and I hope you, in return, respect me also. You sound like you have never met anyone who preached a timely deliverance (salvation) before. Am I right? The scriptures do teach a salvation (deliverance) by works that is not an eternal deliverance. That is why so many of God's elect are believing in eternal salvation by their good works. Also if they take all of the scriptures about Israel to be the nation of Israel and do not understand the significance of why God changed Jacob's name to be called Israel it will add fuel to their work system beliefs. It is very easy for me to understand why they believe in eternal salvation by their works, but they are in the same position as those (Jacob Israel) people in Romans 10 who had a zeal of God.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

That isn't what Jesus meant.

Are you for real, dude? Claiming that Judas may be in heaven (or awaiting a resurrection to glory) is probably one of the weirdest views I've heard.

You are the one that is saying where Judas is, not me. I hope we can continue to discuss our differences in interpreting the scriptures with patience for one another. I realize that I preach a very confusing doctrine and believe it to be the same doctrine that Jesus taught which also brought about much confusion to the majority of the population in his day. I don't particularly like the expression "dude".

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

You are misquoting me. I did not say I was preaching Judas into eternal life, now did I? I said that we can not determine who the elect are and who the non-elect are. I believe you are right on, on most of your beliefs, and respect you for your dedication to proclaiming what you believe, and I hope you, in return, respect me also. You sound like you have never met anyone who preached a timely deliverance (salvation) before. Am I right? The scriptures do teach a salvation (deliverance) by works that is not an eternal deliverance. That is why so many of God's elect are believing in eternal salvation by their good works. Also if they take all of the scriptures about Israel to be the nation of Israel and do not understand the significance of why God changed Jacob's name to be called Israel it will add fuel to their work system beliefs. It is very easy for me to understand why they believe in eternal salvation by their works, but they are in the same position as those (Jacob Israel) people in Romans 10 who had a zeal of God.

Are your beliefs part of some group like the Primitive Baptist or something? You mentioned that you think that there are saved people who never heard the gospel. That's something Primitive Baptists believe.

I want to make it clear that I do not want folks to confuse my theology with yours. You may share some Reformed beliefs but from what I can see, they're really distorted. I'm just a normal Reformed Baptist type who attends an Evangelical Free church.