When/ why did Scripture just stop bing Scripture and it divided between Calvin and Arminian? Did God chance and say let there be a divide among My Word? Or are people just idiots? Can there be a middle somewhere or did just all the centuries before just did not know better so millions are going to hell because they did not know they were not predestined or not holly enough to keep their salvation?
let there be a divide among My Word
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Hey Jacob g good question.
I don't believe all those in false churches are going to hell, as it would not be true justice as many are misled. I think it depends on what is on their heart at “measuring time” to see who they really are inside as we cannot always tell on the outside.
Many who follow the “wrong” church, do it without question and blindly follow their leader from habit, family loyalties etc or how they are brought up. But those who truly search for who Jesus Christ really is, will say to themselves from the Holy Spirit “How do I know this is true”? to themselves and be led to search it out. If they are not interested in doing this or even refuse a doorway open to them to escape from falsity, then that will reveal the state of their heart. I think they get many chances to see the Truth but some refuse it. Remember Lot's wife. Also, mistruths become more obvious as the niche narrows so they have to be willfully blind after a while to miss it.
“The niche narrows
Hones one thin
Until his bones
Disclose him”
The Niche
By Samuel Menashe
I don't believe all those in false churches are going to hell, as it would not be true justice as many are misled. I think it depends on what is on their heart at “measuring time” to see who they really are inside as we cannot always tell on the outside.
Many who follow the “wrong” church, do it without question and blindly follow their leader from habit, family loyalties etc or how they are brought up. But those who truly search for who Jesus Christ really is, will say to themselves from the Holy Spirit “How do I know this is true”? to themselves and be led to search it out. If they are not interested in doing this or even refuse a doorway open to them to escape from falsity, then that will reveal the state of their heart. I think they get many chances to see the Truth but some refuse it. Remember Lot's wife. Also, mistruths become more obvious as the niche narrows so they have to be willfully blind after a while to miss it.
“The niche narrows
Hones one thin
Until his bones
Disclose him”
The Niche
By Samuel Menashe
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I think for the sake of a foundation in this discussion it would help inform what the differences are between Calvinism and Arminianism. Jacobus Arminius was formerly a Calvinist.
Compare Beliefs of Calvinism Vs. Arminianism God's Sovereignty
The sovereignty of God is the belief that God is in complete control over everything that happens in the universe. His rule is supreme, and his will is the final cause of all things.
Calvinism: In Calvinist thinking, God's sovereignty is unconditional, unlimited, and absolute. All things are predetermined by the good pleasure of God's will. God foreknew because of his own planning.
Arminianism: To the Arminian, God is sovereign, but has limited his control in correspondence with man's freedom and response. God's decrees are associated with his foreknowledge of man's response.
Man's Depravity
Calvinist believe in the total depravity of man while Arminians hold to an idea dubbed "partial depravity."
Calvinism: Because of the Fall, man is totally depraved and dead in his sin. Man is unable to save himself and, therefore, God must initiate salvation.
Arminianism: Because of the Fall, man has inherited a corrupted, depraved nature. Through "prevenient grace," God removed the guilt of Adam's sin. Prevenient grace is defined as the preparatory work of the Holy Spirit, given to all, enabling a person to respond to God's call to salvation.
Election
Election refers to the concept of how people are chosen for salvation. Calvinists believe election is unconditional, while Arminians believe election is conditional.
Calvinism: Before the foundation of the world, God unconditionally chose (or "elected") some to be saved. Election has nothing to do with man's future response. The elect are chosen by God.
Arminianism: Election is based on God's foreknowledge of those who would believe in him through faith. In other words, God elected those who would choose him of their own free will. Conditional election is based on man's response to God's offer of salvation.
Christ's Atonement
Atonement is the most controversial aspect of the Calvinism vs. Arminianism debate. It refers to Christ's sacrifice for sinners. To the Calvinist, Christ's atonement is limited to the elect. In Arminian thinking, atonement is unlimited. Jesus died for all people.
Calvinism: Jesus Christ died to save only those who were given to him (elected) by the Father in eternity past. Since Christ did not die for everyone, but only for the elect, his atonement is wholly successful.
Arminianism: Christ died for everyone. The Savior's atoning death provided the means of salvation for the entire human race. Christ's atonement, however, is effective only for those who believe.
Grace
God's grace has to do with his call to salvation. Calvinism says God’s grace is irresistible, while Arminianism argues that it can be resisted.
Calvinism: While God extends his common grace to all humankind, it is not sufficient to save anyone. Only God's irresistible grace can draw the elect to salvation and make a person willing to respond. This grace cannot be obstructed or resisted.
Arminianism: Through the preparatory (prevenient) grace given to all by the Holy Spirit, man is able to cooperate with God and respond in faith to salvation. Through prevenient grace, God removed the effects of Adam's sin. Because of "free will" men are also able to resist God's grace.
Man's Will
The free will of man versus God's sovereign will is linked to many points in the Calvinism vs. Arminianism debate.
Calvinism: All men are totally depraved, and this depravity extends to the entire person, including the will. Except for God's irresistible grace, men are entirely incapable of responding to God on their own.
Arminianism: Because prevenient grace is given to all men by the Holy Spirit, and this grace extends to the entire person, all people have free will.
Perseverance
Perseverance of the saints is tied to the "once saved, always saved" debate and the question of eternal security. The Calvinist says the elect will persevere in faith and will not permanently deny Christ or turn away from Him. The Arminian may insist that a person can fall away and lose his or her salvation. However, some Arminians embrace eternal security.
Calvinism: Believers will persevere in salvation because God will see to it that none will be lost. Believers are secure in the faith because God will finish the work he began.
Arminianism: By the exercise of free will, believers can turn away or fall away from grace and lose their salvation.
It's important to note that all of the doctrinal points in both theological positions have a biblical foundation, which is why the debate has been so divisive and enduring throughout church history. Different denominations disagree over which points are correct, rejecting all or some of either system of theology, leaving most believers with a mixed perspective.
Because both Calvinism and Arminianism deal with concepts that go far beyond human comprehension, the debate is certain to continue as finite beings try to explain an infinitely mysterious God.
Compare Beliefs of Calvinism Vs. Arminianism God's Sovereignty
The sovereignty of God is the belief that God is in complete control over everything that happens in the universe. His rule is supreme, and his will is the final cause of all things.
Calvinism: In Calvinist thinking, God's sovereignty is unconditional, unlimited, and absolute. All things are predetermined by the good pleasure of God's will. God foreknew because of his own planning.
Arminianism: To the Arminian, God is sovereign, but has limited his control in correspondence with man's freedom and response. God's decrees are associated with his foreknowledge of man's response.
Man's Depravity
Calvinist believe in the total depravity of man while Arminians hold to an idea dubbed "partial depravity."
Calvinism: Because of the Fall, man is totally depraved and dead in his sin. Man is unable to save himself and, therefore, God must initiate salvation.
Arminianism: Because of the Fall, man has inherited a corrupted, depraved nature. Through "prevenient grace," God removed the guilt of Adam's sin. Prevenient grace is defined as the preparatory work of the Holy Spirit, given to all, enabling a person to respond to God's call to salvation.
Election
Election refers to the concept of how people are chosen for salvation. Calvinists believe election is unconditional, while Arminians believe election is conditional.
Calvinism: Before the foundation of the world, God unconditionally chose (or "elected") some to be saved. Election has nothing to do with man's future response. The elect are chosen by God.
Arminianism: Election is based on God's foreknowledge of those who would believe in him through faith. In other words, God elected those who would choose him of their own free will. Conditional election is based on man's response to God's offer of salvation.
Christ's Atonement
Atonement is the most controversial aspect of the Calvinism vs. Arminianism debate. It refers to Christ's sacrifice for sinners. To the Calvinist, Christ's atonement is limited to the elect. In Arminian thinking, atonement is unlimited. Jesus died for all people.
Calvinism: Jesus Christ died to save only those who were given to him (elected) by the Father in eternity past. Since Christ did not die for everyone, but only for the elect, his atonement is wholly successful.
Arminianism: Christ died for everyone. The Savior's atoning death provided the means of salvation for the entire human race. Christ's atonement, however, is effective only for those who believe.
Grace
God's grace has to do with his call to salvation. Calvinism says God’s grace is irresistible, while Arminianism argues that it can be resisted.
Calvinism: While God extends his common grace to all humankind, it is not sufficient to save anyone. Only God's irresistible grace can draw the elect to salvation and make a person willing to respond. This grace cannot be obstructed or resisted.
Arminianism: Through the preparatory (prevenient) grace given to all by the Holy Spirit, man is able to cooperate with God and respond in faith to salvation. Through prevenient grace, God removed the effects of Adam's sin. Because of "free will" men are also able to resist God's grace.
Man's Will
The free will of man versus God's sovereign will is linked to many points in the Calvinism vs. Arminianism debate.
Calvinism: All men are totally depraved, and this depravity extends to the entire person, including the will. Except for God's irresistible grace, men are entirely incapable of responding to God on their own.
Arminianism: Because prevenient grace is given to all men by the Holy Spirit, and this grace extends to the entire person, all people have free will.
Perseverance
Perseverance of the saints is tied to the "once saved, always saved" debate and the question of eternal security. The Calvinist says the elect will persevere in faith and will not permanently deny Christ or turn away from Him. The Arminian may insist that a person can fall away and lose his or her salvation. However, some Arminians embrace eternal security.
Calvinism: Believers will persevere in salvation because God will see to it that none will be lost. Believers are secure in the faith because God will finish the work he began.
Arminianism: By the exercise of free will, believers can turn away or fall away from grace and lose their salvation.
It's important to note that all of the doctrinal points in both theological positions have a biblical foundation, which is why the debate has been so divisive and enduring throughout church history. Different denominations disagree over which points are correct, rejecting all or some of either system of theology, leaving most believers with a mixed perspective.
Because both Calvinism and Arminianism deal with concepts that go far beyond human comprehension, the debate is certain to continue as finite beings try to explain an infinitely mysterious God.
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It is clear in scripture that judas was only following Jesus for selfish reasons. He probably saw Jesus as a miracle worker that would earn money and many Jews thought Jesus would be a warrior king to restore the early kingdom of the Israelites. So he probably also saw power. But Jesus in his foreknowledge knowing the heart of Judas and the will of his father he could see the prophecies unfolding.
I believe either view isnt far enough from the core message that would endanger anyone's soul. But yes the Bible is true and it is people who misread it for many different reasons. Much of it can be debated but most of the points you will not truly find out until you die. So it will be debated until Christ returns.
Obviously in my opinion any view that restricts free will already has many philosophical problems on top of scripture problems.
Two views share the core Christian message but contradict on the details. So contradictions on these details either makes 1 view true, both views false but both cannot be right.
I see two views use the same definitions but different interpretations. So one must weigh the evidence for each point and decide which one is in harmony with scripture and represents reality.
Once the definitions are defined you will see the same words in contradiction also. So technically each point is contradictory even when they sound similar.
Obviously in my opinion any view that restricts free will already has many philosophical problems on top of scripture problems.
Two views share the core Christian message but contradict on the details. So contradictions on these details either makes 1 view true, both views false but both cannot be right.
I see two views use the same definitions but different interpretations. So one must weigh the evidence for each point and decide which one is in harmony with scripture and represents reality.
Once the definitions are defined you will see the same words in contradiction also. So technically each point is contradictory even when they sound similar.
Probably. I say probably because the scriptures doesn't say until later that he knew he would be betrayed and he knew who would do it. Does that mean he knew at the beginning? Probably but that is a assumption. It could very well be the work of the Father's divine will and work of Lucifer that put Judas there setting up the coming fulfillment of the prophecies. But that is another assumption. What we do know is later in Jesus's ministry he did know one of his own would betray him and at the final supper he foretold who the betrayer would be. So is it possible he knew all along? Of course he is Jesus.
Matthew 26:23-25 New International Version (NIV)
23 Jesus replied, “The one who has dipped his hand into the bowl with me will betray me. 24 The Son of Man will go just as it is written about him. But woe to that man who betrays the Son of Man! It would be better for him if he had not been born.”
25 Then Judas, the one who would betray him, said, “Surely you don’t mean me, Rabbi?”
Jesus answered, “You have said so.”
Matthew 26:23-25 New International Version (NIV)
23 Jesus replied, “The one who has dipped his hand into the bowl with me will betray me. 24 The Son of Man will go just as it is written about him. But woe to that man who betrays the Son of Man! It would be better for him if he had not been born.”
25 Then Judas, the one who would betray him, said, “Surely you don’t mean me, Rabbi?”
Jesus answered, “You have said so.”
Sure I know he knew then, but maybe his character was obvious by then as it usually is. But I wondered if Jesus knew from the start, in which case Judas was always evil from the start with no hope, therefore made for destruction from the start. If this is true then it must be true in all ways surely? As we can always say, this was only a particular example to do Gods will from the start. I am never sure about exceptions to the rule because usually one thing means all things in the broader sense and it certainly opens up the question.
Well the Word of God is what the Word of God is.. There is a correct ground.. A Holy Spirit affirmed correct ground..
Do not get frustrated or be shaken by people who come online and push their non-core slavational doctrines as if they must be accepted to be saved.. Do not get shaken by the unwise telling you that you are not of God because you do not adhere to their views.. Be focused on asking the LORD for the knowledge that you need.. The important things of salvation..
Do not get frustrated or be shaken by people who come online and push their non-core slavational doctrines as if they must be accepted to be saved.. Do not get shaken by the unwise telling you that you are not of God because you do not adhere to their views.. Be focused on asking the LORD for the knowledge that you need.. The important things of salvation..