Red Flags in the church

[cinder]

As promised, here is the companion thread to Gold stars:

As some of you may know or have gathered, I'm starting the process of church hunting / proving to myself that the church I've been going to really is the best I'm going to find. In that process I'm learning both that there is so much I don't know about the practical and theological differences between denominations, and that you can't always judge a church by its name.

Anyway in my search I went through the phone book and made a list of a bunch of churches that sounded like they might be good, and then looked them up online to find out service times, what style of church it might be, etc. And in that process of looking them up, about half of them went off my list for various reasons. And I got to thinking about it and all the ways church can go wrong or off the rails and thought it might be instructive to share things we've seen or experienced churches doing that are indicative of big problems, kind of like the proverbial red flag. Then I thought it wasn't such a good idea; then I mentioned it to a CC friend who said yes that would be an excellent thread; then I decided to post a thread about really great things in the church first; now here it is.

So far in my church hunting I've encountered and disqualified some churches based on the following "red flags" (they still exists as churches so there must be some people who think church should be this way) :

On their website was posted the following question and answer:
Q: Are ordained leaders expected to live in fidelity within the covenant of marriage between a man and a woman or chastity in singleness?
A: We've decided to practice mutual forbearance toward each other and other councils of the church regarding ordination

Also the church who has this as a mission statement:
Inspired by Christ, we strive to create a reconciling community where all are welcome to seek, worship, and serve as individuals
interwoven by God's love. [Almost sounds like Christian faith is optional, also they have a far too open and accepting policy that fits with the you are whatever you identify as ethos of the wider culture]

How about you? What are some of the things you've encountered in churches that have encouraged you to avoid those particular congregations?

And one other question I'm currently wondering about, " What does it say about church and christians in general if this thread has more response and discussion and input than the one about the good things in the church?"

 

[BrotherMike]

I know this is very basic. What I look for is the doctrine comes from the Bible and not man made rules. I also seek out peace from the Holy Spirit. Anything that does not give me peace is a red flag to me. I also know we ALL fall short of His glory, that includes leaders of the church. I want to feel His presence there, and the spirit moving. I am there to praise and worship Jesus.

 

[BrotherMike]

Also there to be His servant, whatever He leads me to do for His glory

 

[Deade]

Oh, I could write a book on what bothers me during a church service. In fact, I did write two books that somewhat covers it. **edited**

What I find that turns me off is doctrine that radically differs on what I believe is preached. I just cringe. That said, I do enjoy the fellowship and the praise rallies.

 

[CharliRenee]

And one other question I'm currently wondering about, " What does it say about church and christians in general if this thread has more response and discussion and input than the one about the good things in the church?"[/QUOTE]
Good point....

We as a human species, Christian or otherwise, have always enjoyed or just do more conversing over the what's wrong than the what's right. I mean look at doctors, lawyers, the military, , news, debates, politics, even gossip, all of it operates on the whats wrong. The threads with the highest numbers are always the most controversial, meaning two sides feeling the other side is soooo very wrong, right, lol?

Even our need for a Saviour points to our fallen wrong estate, needing His perfected right estate.

I think that is why He tells us to focus on what is lovely, true and pure. The Lord knows we have zero problem thinking and talking about what's wrong. I reckon it is life saving to look at a problem in order to find a solution. It is profitable...so yeah even that isn't all bad, in fact it is really good.

Pardon me, dear Cinder, I am in a deep thinking mood today, so I am having fun responding.

I think a church mission statement should include transparency about what missions they serve, that show what they believe in action. I would definitely have a hard time attending a church with a universal unity approach like you shared.

It does have me pondering what you think about churches that push tithing and offering every service. I mean if they are serving their community and neighbors in great ways is it a good idea, you know it a necessary component or should those things be done in private. You know how we are instructed to give secretly?

Oops, going off course, hope you are ok with it Cinder. I would love to have updates on where this all takes you. I pray you find what you are looking for.

 

[morefaithrequired]

Red flags
-if it in any way meets criteria for a cult..
-how much do they emphasise donating money to them
-too much emotionalism
-too fundamentalist
-too loosey goosey hippie new age anything is cool man hip

 

[morefaithrequired]

the ideal Church.
its all about the leader(s)
good pastor/priest good Church.

 

[Oncefallen]

It does have me pondering what you think about churches that push tithing and offering every service. I mean if they are serving their community and neighbors in great ways is it a good idea, you know it a necessary component or should those things be done in private. You know how we are instructed to give secretly?

I couldn't help but wonder how you were defining "pushing" tithing and offering every service. I would tend to have issues with a church that consistently has the "second sermon" (about giving) every Sunday prior to passing the plate however I have no issue with a church that passes the plate every Sunday. I've also been to a couple of churches that just have boxes at each entrance to the sanctuary for the purpose of offerings.

The church that I attend does pass the plate albeit a large percentage of members choose to give on line instead of placing cash (or a check) in the plate but (with rare exception) the only time giving is mentioned in a service is when our regular course of working through the scripture verse by verse happens to get us to a scripture that addresses the subject of giving.

 

[seoulsearch]

Awesome thread, Cinder!!!

I always like to say that I have a tumultuous relationship with Christianity at best, and because of that, I have to be very careful to find a church that balances both grace and correction or else I always feel like I'm on the verge of walking away from Christianity forever.

A good example is the Christian group I attended last week in which someone suggested we all go out to karaoke as part of our social activities. One guy laughed and said he only sang in public after downing a beer or two, which then prompted another person in the back to shout, "NO DRINKING!!! REMEMBER, WE'RE DOING THIS FOR JESUS!!!"

I understand that some Christians believe that a Christian should never consume alcohol, and I respect that (seeing as I believe I am allergic to it and almost completely avoid it myself), but what always gets my proverbial goat is that no one can ever seem to agree about what "proper Christian behavior" really is. Even if you get past all the matters of basic doctrine (no small feat), there is always some dividing line that turns an outwardly friendly group of people into a mass of individual "take no prisoners" warriors who are each out to convert everyone else to their own, God-given (of course) agenda.

I would much rather have a social night with a group of unbelievers who, if they choose to drink, will do so responsibly and have a good laugh or two than a group of Christians who each believe that everyone else must live exactly the way they do, and anyone who does anything differently is going to hell, and boy, are they going to let them know it!

For a while I thought I had found a church that was a really good match -- the people were loving and the church didn't shy away from tough topics, but in fact, met them head on. Several of their sermon series were self-proclaimed PG-13, and parents were encouraged to either leave their kids with the children's ministries or be prepared to have a good discussion with them after the service. (One of the topics they covered was sex in marriage and what "is" and "isn't" allowed, which is something I don't think I've EVER heard covered in a lifetime of church attendance.)

I had never been to a church that dove right into some of the toughest, least-talked about issues of faith rather than sticking their heads in the sand and pretending it would all go away or work itself out if everyone just turned their head and prayed enough. As you can imagine, I was pretty hyped and eager to learn more.

However, over time, I began to notice a "catchphrase" being used throughout many of the sermon series: "Your problem isn't that you don't love God enough; your problem is that you don't know how much God loves you."

The underlying message seemed to be: "If you only knew how much God loved you, you wouldn't even WANT to sin anymore," which is something I can't find myself agreeing with both on a Scriptural and personal level. First, I don't know of anything in Scripture that supports that idea (does anyone else? I'd love to know I was wrong about this.) Secondly, I KNOW my earthly parents love me but it sure doesn't seem to stop me from making the wrong choices, especially with certain pet sins.

In fact, knowing that my parents love me can sometimes turn into an excuse, because I know that even though they might be disappointed and even extra-crispy, BBQ-hopping mad -- it won't break our relationship -- and this sets up the temptation of, "Oh well, they'll just forgive me anyway," which is something I definitely don't need reinforced in my thinking.

I felt that this church was too close to telling people, "It's ok, we all make mistakes," rather than telling us clearly that we are sinning when we need to be corrected, and yet doesn't bowl people over with condemnation and impossible standards when it happens.

I guess this is a common problem in churches nowadays? It's either, "We love everything and everyone and so does God; there's no such thing as sin, just follow what's in your heart," or holy hellfire and brimstone and there is nothing you can do to escape the watchful wrath of a God you can never please and is waiting to punish you at every turn (especially when you don't give enough money.)

How can we find God when we can't even find a church that He supposedly lives in?

And so, the search for the proverbial holy grail continues.

We're all in this together!

 

[CharliRenee]

I couldn't help but wonder how you were defining "pushing" tithing and offering every service. I would tend to have issues with a church that consistently has the "second sermon" (about giving) every Sunday prior to passing the plate however I have no issue with a church that passes the plate every Sunday. I've also been to a couple of churches that just have boxes at each entrance to the sanctuary for the purpose of offerings.

The church that I attend does pass the plate albeit a large percentage of members choose to give on line instead of placing cash (or a check) in the plate but (with rare exception) the only time giving is mentioned in a service is when our regular course of working through the scripture verse by verse happens to get us to a scripture that addresses the subject of giving.

What I meant by pushy....The church I go to has a pattern...after worshipping with Hymns, one of the pastors comes up and quotes verses and seeks to inspire the congregation to give generously. It has been kinda bothering me a bit, not the offering plate, just the consistent almost aggressive approach. On the other hand, brother, the church helps lots of ppl and are very transparent so maybe it is a good thing... I really like my church outside of this but again maybe it is just necessary. I do not know.

I like that your church is more graceful in their approach and love the boxes offered for offerings.

 

[cinder]

However, over time, I began to notice a "catchphrase" being used throughout many of the sermon series: "Your problem isn't that you don't love God enough; your problem is that you don't know how much God loves you."

The underlying message seemed to be: "If you only knew how much God loved you, you wouldn't even WANT to sin anymore," which is something I can't find myself agreeing with both on a Scriptural and personal level. First, I don't know of anything in Scripture that supports that idea (does anyone else? I'd love to know I was wrong about this.) Secondly, I KNOW my earthly parents love me but it sure doesn't seem to stop me from making the wrong choices, especially with certain pet sins.

In fact, knowing that my parents love me can sometimes turn into an excuse, because I know that even though they might be disappointed and even extra-crispy, BBQ-hopping mad -- it won't break our relationship -- and this sets up the temptation of, "Oh well, they'll just forgive me anyway," which is something I definitely don't need reinforced in my thinking.

I felt that this church was too close to telling people, "It's ok, we all make mistakes," rather than telling us clearly that we are sinning when we need to be corrected, and yet doesn't bowl people over with condemnation and impossible standards when it happens.

I guess this is a common problem in churches nowadays? It's either, "We love everything and everyone and so does God; there's no such thing as sin, just follow what's in your heart," or holy hellfire and brimstone and there is nothing you can do to escape the watchful wrath of a God you can never please and is waiting to punish you at every turn (especially when you don't give enough money.)

How can we find God when we can't even find a church that He supposedly lives in?

Maybe that's why he gave us a book that reveals him and how he has lived for several millenia (if lived is a fair term to apply to God's existence and all).

But I struggle with the same issue that it seems you either find Christians who are forever depressed by the weight of their imperfections and constantly remind each other that no matter how hard you try you'll never be good enough or else you find the people who are like God understands us and knows how weak we are so sin is no big deal. There may have been a few rare occasions where maybe I got a tiny taste of what it's like for God to grieve over our sin rather than be eager to condemn us for it, but that certainly isn't something that I could articulate clearly or that seems to characterize most churches.

So yeah I'd have to say that an attitude that sin isn't a big deal or that not that bad is good enough is kind of red flag for me.

It does have me pondering what you think about churches that push tithing and offering every service. I mean if they are serving their community and neighbors in great ways is it a good idea, you know it a necessary component or should those things be done in private. You know how we are instructed to give secretly?

Oops, going off course, hope you are ok with it Cinder. I would love to have updates on where this all takes you. I pray you find what you are looking for.

I think I'm fine with the fact that churches need money but the two things that would kind of be red flags to me would be:

1) When the church (or any other Christian organization) gives you the feeling that all they're interested in is your money. Some of it may be changing technology that I haven't so much kept up on, but I've had multiple missionary friends that it started to seem like I only heard from them when they needed money for the next trip, adventure, etc. And I kind of decided that people I only heard from when they needed money were people that I didn't have a close enough relationship with for them to merit my money.

2) When the church begins to feel like a fundraising organization for their own or other ministries. My most recent church was starting to have hints of this (as the assistant pastor said in one of our small groups: "we're fundraising our people to death"), but I do think it's a sign of a problem when the church is either constantly asking the congregation to give to various ministries or doing more and more projects and continually appealing to the people for a little more funding. I'm all for churches giving other ministries a platform to come speak etc. but the church shouldn't constantly be asking its people for donations on behalf of several other ministries nor planning to spend more than they have on programs.

 

[Dino246]

Red flags that I have seen...
- The pastor talks about how he has been appointed to 'clean house'
- A mini-sermon on tithing prior to the main sermon
- Attendees talking about denominational identity more than Christian identity
- Financial statements showing heavy debt load
- A statement of faith with anything controversial or secondary in the first few lines
- High turnover for pastors, especially in a congregation-run church

In one seminar, I asked the group, "What can you as a church leadership team do to encourage your staff in their work?" The response was lacklustre. I flipped the question, asking what they could do to discourage their staff, and the response was suddenly lively. We remember the negative experiences more clearly than the mildly positive ones.

 

[BrotherMike]

Oh, I could write a book on what bothers me during a church service. In fact, I did write two books that somewhat covers it. **edited**

What I find that turns me off is doctrine that radically differs on what I believe is preached. I just cringe. That said, I do enjoy the fellowship and the praise rallies.

I agree with the doctrine... it should be from the Bible not man made beliefs

 

[17Bees]

Well of course I'm guilty, I'm Catholic after all, but moreover I believe if you are in a church and not convicted by your sin, then you're in a house of devils. If your Pastor preaches politics from the pulpit then you need get away from there. If your salvation is measured by the value of your dollar then get away from that particular unclean thing. Eazy peazy

 

[zeroturbulence]

How about you? What are some of the things you've encountered in churches that have encouraged you to avoid those particular congregations?
"

 

[ertteaa]

hehe amazing.

 

[kaylagrl]

Well of course I'm guilty, I'm Catholic after all, but moreover I believe if you are in a church and not convicted by your sin, then you're in a house of devils. If your Pastor preaches politics from the pulpit then you need get away from there. If your salvation is measured by the value of your dollar then get away from that particular unclean thing. Eazy peazy

Could you explain that further?

 

[morefaithrequired]

Could you explain that further?

If the pastor says
" please vote for Donald Trump in the next election" that would be a red flag for me.

 

[kaylagrl]

If the pastor says
" please vote for Donald Trump in the next election" that would be a red flag for me.

Are pastors allowed to say that? To name a person? Don't think they can in Canada. But I'd rather a pastor say vote Trump than a progressive liberal (who ever the nominee will be). Not to derail the thread but I think it's very important to discuss politics in the church. Issues like gay marriage/ transgender, abortion, supporting Israel are all issues Christians need to know about.

 

[BrotherMike]

Well of course I'm guilty, I'm Catholic after all, but moreover I believe if you are in a church and not convicted by your sin, then you're in a house of devils. If your Pastor preaches politics from the pulpit then you need get away from there. If your salvation is measured by the value of your dollar then get away from that particular unclean thing. Eazy peazy

Do you believe in God according to John 3:16? If so, you’re not guilty.