3 Tactics Calvinists Use Against Non-Calvinists

[Grandpa]

I know this is the proof text.. context ... if every scripture has universal application then I think we have a real mess.

But carry on... all I can state is there is only liberty and it is found in truth, everything else is bondage..... I could never go back to.... yes a very.... "cerebral doctrine" however ultimately at its core, lacks Life and Grace.

Yes. Its kind of weird. In order to explain something to someone else you have to kind of do it in a "cerebral" type way.

But the reality and the working of belief is often much messier and not quite as perfect as the explanation seems to show.


Its kind of like we are describing events from two different perspectives. One is a person coming to Salvation. And the other is a person who is Saved and is looking back on the events that happened in order to cause it.

When we are coming to Christ and to Salvation it seems like we are making all kinds of great decisions and following instructions. After we are saved we realize we weren't ever really that smart or strong to be able to perfectly follow all those instructions in the exact order that would cause Salvation.

Thank God for Christ.

 

[Whispered]

That is completely false and misrepresents the non-Reformed position.

1. No one can earn salvation.
2. No one can elect themselves.
3. Everyone can hear (or read) the Gospel.
4. Everyone can obey the Gospel.
5. Everyone can repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.
6. Everyone can be saved.
7. Not all will obey the Gospel.

ROMANS 10: Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.
6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above)
7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)
8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.
19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.
20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.
21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

Agreed. We do not work to become saved in Christ. We are the Elect for whom the Good News resonated with its truth in our hearts.

The Word Brings Salvation
…16But not all of them welcomed the good news. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our message?” 17Consequently, faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ. 18But I ask, did they not hear? Indeed they did: “Their voice has gone out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world.”

Galatians 3:5
Does God lavish His Spirit on you and work miracles among you because you practice the Law, or because you hear and believe?

Hebrews 4:2
For we also received the good news just as they did; but the message they heard was of no value to them, since they did not share the faith of those who comprehended it.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Agreed. We do not work to become saved in Christ. We are the Elect for whom the Good News resonated with its truth in our hearts.

The Word Brings Salvation
…16But not all of them welcomed the good news. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our message?” 17Consequently, faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ. 18But I ask, did they not hear? Indeed they did: “Their voice has gone out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world.”

Galatians 3:5
Does God lavish His Spirit on you and work miracles among you because you practice the Law, or because you hear and believe?

Hebrews 4:2
For we also received the good news just as they did; but the message they heard was of no value to them, since they did not share the faith of those who comprehended it.

Those that are not one of his elect are not of his sheep. they cannot hear his voice to understand it. Only his sheep hear his voice and they follow him.

 

[notuptome]

Those that are not one of his elect are not of his sheep. they cannot hear his voice to understand it. Only his sheep hear his voice and they follow him.

Still droning on in the absence of knowledge.

All are goats until they come to Christ and receive the indwelling Holy Spirit. They become sheep in keeping with your analogy when they are saved from their sins and become heirs of the promise of eternal life.

You cannot reconcile your position with the scriptures.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Grandpa]

Still droning on in the absence of knowledge.

All are goats until they come to Christ and receive the indwelling Holy Spirit. They become sheep in keeping with your analogy when they are saved from their sins and become heirs of the promise of eternal life.

You cannot reconcile your position with the scriptures.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Still droning on in the absence of knowledge.

All are goats until they come to Christ and receive the indwelling Holy Spirit. They become sheep in keeping with your analogy when they are saved from their sins and become heirs of the promise of eternal life.

You cannot reconcile your position with the scriptures.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Goats can never become sheep. God separates them at the last day placing the sheep on the right and the goats on the left.

 

[Whispered]

Those that are not one of his elect are not of his sheep. they cannot hear his voice to understand it. Only his sheep hear his voice and they follow him.

And according to Calvinism, that is not possible of their own accord. But rather, God makes them able to hear the voice and to follow him.

The sacrifice of Jesus on the cross was to take the sins of the world upon Himself there. The Book of 1st John chapter 2 and verse 2 2He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Jesus being God the Father, taking the sins of the whole world upon himself, when humans are the only one capable of sinning, means Jesus sacrificed himself for the whole world of sinful people. Which is why the Book of John chapter 3 verse 16 says that whosoever believeth in Jesus shall not perish of those sins Jesus took upon Himself for their sake as He died as the final sin offering on that cross, but rather shall have immortal life.
The Gospel is for the whole world. Because Jesus took the sins of the whole world away.

 

[posthuman]

And according to Calvinism, that is not possible of their own accord. But rather, God makes them able to hear the voice and to follow him.

John 12:37-40
Though He had done so many signs before them, they still did not believe in him, so that the word spoken by the prophet Isaiah might be fulfilled: "Lord, who has believed what he heard from us, and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?"
Therefore they could not believe. For again Isaiah said, "He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, lest they see with their eyes, and understand with their heart, and turn, and I would heal them."

What do y'all think about this?
Seems like the Bible is saying that God ordained that certain would not believe, and spoke thus through His prophet, and therefore they could not - sovereign human free agency notwithstanding.

Is that right?

 

[Whispered]

 

[Whispered]

John 12:37-40
Though He had done so many signs before them, they still did not believe in him, so that the word spoken by the prophet Isaiah might be fulfilled: "Lord, who has believed what he heard from us, and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?"
Therefore they could not believe. For again Isaiah said, "He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, lest they see with their eyes, and understand with their heart, and turn, and I would heal them."

What do y'all think about this?
Seems like the Bible is saying that God ordained that certain would not believe, and spoke thus through His prophet, and therefore they could not - sovereign human free agency notwithstanding.

Is that right?

I would hope you and others consider your post carefully. And then deem to ask themselves one question first. What does that say about the spirit of God in John Calvin's mind?

There are pro-choice people who can use the Bible to argue God is pro-choice. And vice versa. Pro-lifers use the Bible to say God is pro-life. God can't be both. He can only be one. Which is it?? But people use God's word to make arguments for both sides! How does that happen?
Man. We can convince ourselves of what we need to hear so that we believe.


If people are Totally Depraved, what a condition huh? Totally depraved, that is by God's doing. Not their own.

That means they're totally incapable of finding God. Finding Jesus. Understanding spiritual things, because God made them that way.
And then God chose certain totally depraved people and forced His state of grace upon them. That's the short phrase version of Irresistible Grace. God also does that to those certain one's He created to be Totally Depraved. The entire human race in fact He chose to make that way.
Then, once they're in Irresistible Grace, some Calvinists think they can still act as if they're Totally Depraved. But that then cancels out the condition afforded in being depraved totally.
And it certainly puts into question Irresistible grace. When that totally depraved human can't resist God's grace because God forces it into them so that He can then make them to have faith in His sacrifice on the cross for just they themselves, that's Unconditional Election. There were no conditions that human could meet so as to be Elected to be saved. God did it.

But why then would God have to die for the world's sins, so that whosoever believeth in that, Him , would not perish as sinners but would have immortal life through faith?

When God acts upon the human in total in applying what is known as the TULIP principle upon those chosen Totally Depraved persons He had predetermined to receive TULIP, why would God have to die to take the sins of the world upon himself? When He created in the beginning the human race to be incapable of holding faith without His first forcing Irresistible Grace upon certain ones.

Faith in Christ's sacrifice wasn't something that could be believed in by those who felt called to the scriptures and redemption.

TULIP tells us God makes it all happen when He elects certain one's to be saved from the damnation of Total Depravity by forcing the steps unto eternal life upon them in this life. They , Calvinism says, weren't capable of holding faith in Jesus. God made that happen.
So why didn't God just save them of His own accord, as He elected to do when he first created all damned, Totally Depraved, and then made some to be saved from that state per His pre-determined plan before He created the world and humans.
Jesus has nothing to do with that. Faith in Jesus is not within the domain of the human population according to Total Depravity.

Faith in Jesus only comes when God works out His plan upon those He elected to change from their Totally Depraved state. Because the Totally Depraved are incapable of doing anything relative to holding faith in Christ in and of themselves. It's all God.

God died so He could force His Elect to hold faith in the death He manipulated their Depraved state into believing in that as eternal salvation?

 

[posthuman]

I would hope you and others consider your post carefully. And then deem to ask themselves one question first. What does that say about the spirit of God in John Calvin's mind?

um, i was talking about God, not Mssr. Calvin..?

what does John 12:37-40 mean?

 

[posthuman]

We are the Elect for whom the Good News resonated with its truth in our hearts.

Who makes the hearing ear?
Who makes the heart tuned to the resonant frequency?

 

[posthuman]

The Gospel is for the whole world. Because Jesus took the sins of the whole world away.

why do some yet perish in their sins if all their sins are taken away?
how do they perish in what they do not have?

 

[posthuman]

The Book of 1st John chapter 2 and verse 2 2He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

thank you, what a wonderful verse!


does it contradict these ones?

He shall see the labor of His soul, and be satisfied.​

By His knowledge My righteous Servant shall justify many, for He shall bear their iniquities.​

He shall divide the spoil with the strong, because He poured out His soul unto death, and He was numbered with the transgressors, and He bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors. ​

(Isaiah 53:11-12)​

​

For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous.​

(Romans 5:19)​

​

Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many.​

(Hebrews 9:28)​

​

​

what is the difference between making propitiation for all and bearing the sin of many?
what is the difference between making intercession for all and making many righteous?
does He bear the sin of all for whom He has made propitiation?
does He make righteous every transgressor?

The sacrifice of Jesus on the cross was to take the sins of the world upon Himself there.

is making atonement for sin identical to actually bearing the sin itself?

 

[Nehemiah6]

what does John 12:37-40 mean?

John 12:37-40 must be understood within the context of the whole chapter (and also the entire Gospel of John)

PART I

JOHN 12

1. Mary anoints Jesus with very costly oinment
1 Then Jesus six days before the passover came to Bethany, where Lazarus was which had been dead, whom he raised from the dead. 2 There they made him a supper; and Martha served: but Lazarus was one of them that sat at the table with him.
3 Then took Mary a pound of ointment of spikenard, very costly, and anointed the feet of Jesus, and wiped his feet with her hair: and the house was filled with the odour of the ointment.

2. Judas objects to that
4 Then saith one of his disciples, Judas Iscariot, Simon's son, which should betray him, 5 Why was not this ointment sold for three hundred pence, and given to the poor? 6 This he said, not that he cared for the poor; but because he was a thief, and had the bag, and bare what was put therein. 7 Then said Jesus, Let her alone: against the day of my burying hath she kept this. 8 For the poor always ye have with you; but me ye have not always.

3. The raising of Lazarus causes many to believe on Jesus
[NO UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION]
9 Much people of the Jews therefore knew that he was there: and they came not for Jesus' sake only, but that they might see Lazarus also, whom he had raised from the dead. 10 But the chief priests consulted that they might put Lazarus also to death; 11 Because that by reason of him many of the Jews went away, and believed on Jesus.

4. Jesus is welcomed as the King of Israel
[NO UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION]
12 On the next day much people that were come to the feast, when they heard that Jesus was coming to Jerusalem, 13 Took branches of palm trees, and went forth to meet him, and cried, Hosanna: Blessed is the King of Israel that cometh in the name of the Lord. 14 And Jesus, when he had found a young ass, sat thereon; as it is written, 15 Fear not, daughter of Sion: behold, thy King cometh, sitting on an ass's colt. 16 These things understood not his disciples at the first: but when Jesus was glorified, then remembered they that these things were written of him, and that they had done these things unto him. 17 The people therefore that was with him when he called Lazarus out of his grave, and raised him from the dead, bare record.18 For this cause the people also met him, for that they heard that he had done this miracle.

5. The Pharisees object to that [NO UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION]
19 The Pharisees therefore said among themselves, Perceive ye how ye prevail nothing? behold, the world is gone after him.

6. Hellenistic Jews believe on Jesus [NO UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION]
20 And there were certain Greeks among them that came up to worship at the feast: 21 The same came therefore to Philip, which was of Bethsaida of Galilee, and desired him, saying, Sir, we would see Jesus. 22 Philip cometh and telleth Andrew: and again Andrew and Philip tell Jesus.

7. Jesus predicts His crucifixion and glorification
23 And Jesus answered them, saying, The hour is come, that the Son of man should be glorified.24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.

 

[Nehemiah6]

PART II

8. Jesus lays down the conditions for discipleship
25 He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal. 26 If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour.

9. God the Father glorifies His Son
27 Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.28 Father, glorify thy name. Then came there a voice from heaven, saying, I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again. 29 The people therefore, that stood by, and heard it, said that it thundered: others said, An angel spake to him.30 Jesus answered and said, This voice came not because of me, but for your sakes.

10. The crucified Christ will draw ALL MEN to Himself
[NO UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION]
31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out. 32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. 33 This he said, signifying what death he should die.

11. Many Jews do not believe as prophesied
[NO UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION]
34 The people answered him, We have heard out of the law that Christ abideth for ever: and how sayest thou, The Son of man must be lifted up? who is this Son of man? 35 Then Jesus said unto them, Yet a little while is the light with you. Walk while ye have the light, lest darkness come upon you: for he that walketh in darkness knoweth not whither he goeth.36 While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them.37 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:

12. Wilful blindless leads to hardness of heart
[NO UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION]
38 That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed? 39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again, 40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them. 41 These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.

13. Many religious leaders did believe on Jesus
[NO UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION]
42 Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue: 43 For they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God.

14. Believing on Jesus is believing on God the Father
44 Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me. 45 And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me.

15. All may believe on Christ [NO UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION]
46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness. 47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. 48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.

16. Everlasting life is God's commandment [NO UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION]
50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

 

[posthuman]

is making atonement for sin identical to actually bearing the sin itself?

how instructive is this passage ↓ towards answering that question ↑ ?

He shall take from the congregation of the sons of Israel two male goats for a sin offering and one ram for a burnt offering. Then Aaron shall offer the bull for the sin offering which is for himself, that he may make atonement for himself and for his household. He shall take the two goats and present them before the LORD at the doorway of the tent of meeting. ​

Aaron shall cast lots for the two goats, one lot for the LORD and the other lot for the scapegoat. Then Aaron shall offer the goat on which the lot for the LORD fell, and make it a sin offering. But the goat on which the lot for the scapegoat fell shall be presented alive before the LORD, to make atonement upon it, to send it into the wilderness as the scapegoat.
(Leviticus 16:5-10)
​

i didn't quote the whole chapter here, but please read on. two lots are cast over 3 goats. one is slaughtered as a propitiation behind the veil on the mercy seat. the other bears the sins of the people and lives, and is sent free to a solitary place. both are called purposed for atonement.

what does this tell us about the Messiah?

 

[posthuman]

John 12:37-40 must be understood within the context of the whole chapter (and also the entire Gospel of John)

ok, i've got a copy of John here. i assume you do too. and i agree, in fact, we should start with Genesis. John needs to be understood in context of the whole of scripture just as much as an explanation of how prophecy is fulfilled should be understood in the context in which the account is written. should i start quoting all of Genesis 1 - 10, or . . ?

what does John 12:37-40 mean? God spoke through Isaiah saying a thing, and John says therefore a certain 'they' could not believe.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

And according to Calvinism, that is not possible of their own accord. But rather, God makes them able to hear the voice and to follow him.

The sacrifice of Jesus on the cross was to take the sins of the world upon Himself there. The Book of 1st John chapter 2 and verse 2 2He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Jesus being God the Father, taking the sins of the whole world upon himself, when humans are the only one capable of sinning, means Jesus sacrificed himself for the whole world of sinful people. Which is why the Book of John chapter 3 verse 16 says that whosoever believeth in Jesus shall not perish of those sins Jesus took upon Himself for their sake as He died as the final sin offering on that cross, but rather shall have immortal life.
The Gospel is for the whole world. Because Jesus took the sins of the whole world away.

Even God's elect, before they are born of the Holy Spirit, cannot discern the things of the spirit. God can do anything that he wants, but God does not allow his own elect to understand him until he has changed them to be born again with a new heart. I hate to repeat this, but your scriptures do not harmonize with all of the scriptures.

 

[Whispered]

thank you, what a wonderful verse!


does it contradict these ones?

He shall see the labor of His soul, and be satisfied.​

By His knowledge My righteous Servant shall justify many, for He shall bear their iniquities.​

He shall divide the spoil with the strong, because He poured out His soul unto death, and He was numbered with the transgressors, and He bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors. ​

(Isaiah 53:11-12)​

​

For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous.​

(Romans 5:19)​

​

Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many.​

(Hebrews 9:28)​

​

​

what is the difference between making propitiation for all and bearing the sin of many?
what is the difference between making intercession for all and making many righteous?
does He bear the sin of all for whom He has made propitiation?
does He make righteous every transgressor?




is making atonement for sin identical to actually bearing the sin itself?

The difference between making propitiation for all and bearing the sins of many is that many precludes all.

The Book of 1st John chapter 2 verse Jesus Our Advocate
1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you will not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate before the Father—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. 2He Himself is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.


If no one comes to understanding of God and His word save through God imbuing His Elect with Irresistible Grace, forced Grace as it were, then why would the Saint Apostle Paul tell us that study of the word would lead us, those called the Totally Depraved for all that means, to understanding the word of God?

The Letter to the Ephesians chapter 3
3 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus in behalf of you Gentiles,— 2 if so be that ye have heard of the [a]dispensation of that grace of God which was given me to you-ward; 3 how that by revelation was made known unto me the mystery, as I wrote before in few words, 4 whereby, when ye read, ye can perceive my understanding in the mystery of Christ
Footnotes

1. Ephesians 3:2 Or, stewardship