Is unconditional election biblical?

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Is unconditional election biblical?

  • Yes, unconditional election is biblical.

    Votes: 23 43.4%
  • No , unconditional election is not biblical.

    Votes: 27 50.9%
  • I don't know.

    Votes: 3 5.7%

  • Total voters
    53

UnitedWithChrist

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Aug 12, 2019
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#81
I, also, am branded by the people on this forum as "a Calvinist" and I have never read his writings. I have heard people say that he interpreted the scriptures to teach that all things are predestined by God, eliminating free will. Is this true of his teachings or not? I believe the scriptures to teach that God has given man a free will to choose how he wants to live his life while he lives on earth, but that man has no choice in his eternal destination.
I don't know, because I haven't read John Calvin :)

All I know is that some of his beliefs corresponded with mine, but not all of them.

By the way, I am pretty sure he would have believed in "compatibilism". This means that man has "creaturely free will", so he has free will within the constraints of his nature, but God's will is sovereign.

So, God changes the nature of the unsaved person, and this new nature leads to faith and repentance.

Before salvation, he has a fallen nature that makes sinful choices, but after salvation, he has a regenerate nature that wants to please and obey God. He still struggles with a "remnant" of the old nature that is called "the flesh" or the "old man", though.

The nature of the person is changed in the believer, and the behavior flows from the nature.

Compatibilism teaches that God exercises his sovereign authority, but that he does it in a manner that does not do violence to man's free will. Man does not have "libertarian free will", though, he has "creaturely free will". He is a creation of God, and is subject to his sovereignty.

I have used the analogy of a fish in a pond. He swims all over the pond, but is unable to jump out of the pond and live on dry land. This is similar to the creaturely free will of man. Libertarian free will, or autonomous free will, is a false teaching.
 

UnitedWithChrist

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#82
i will look maybe there is better explanation. i dont watn to deny either verse but it looks like they are outdoing each other.


are these other sheep saved too or lost?
No, not if they don't listen to Jesus. There's no salvation outside of Jesus.

This topic is called reprobation, by the way, and it is not a pleasant topic.

If you want to listen to a message on it, here's a good one:

https://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=41210121533

It lists some Scriptures that clearly say some were destined to destruction.
 
Mar 28, 2016
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#83
Unconditional election is the second doctrine of grace that I would like to cover.

I would like to say that the interaction on this forum concerning Reformed theology has, in fact, entrenched me even deeper, and incited me to do a quick review on the topic.

In fact, I think the doctrines are even more important now.

Why?

Predestination is a major teaching within Reformed theology. God doesn't simply provide his revelation about irrelevant teachings.

Why is predestination important?

1) it inspires praise. Realizing that God has chosen the elect since the foundation of the earth should cause believers to rejoice. We see Paul referring
to election as a reason for praise in Ephesians 1.
2) it inspires courage. Realizing that God is in control, and is not some weak, emasculated idol who is not in control inspires those who are in
covenant with him.
3) it humbles prideful, sinful man, who is forced to realize that God is the potter, and humans are the clay. That is one of the messages of Romans 9.
Man-centered theology makes me retch.

Anyways, the poll is simply, is unconditional election biblical? I will present several biblical texts to support my contention that it is.



I would say not unconditional but conditional .As many as the Father gave the Son they alone will come as the father draws them.

The second doctrine of grace is not a biblical truth. It can do despite the grace of God. .
 

UnitedWithChrist

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#84
I would say not unconditional but conditional .As many as the Father gave the Son they alone will come as the father draws them.

The second doctrine of grace is not a biblical truth. It can do despite the grace of God. .
Unconditional election teaches that the saved are elected due to no personal merits of their own, but purely through God's sovereign grace.

This is the opposite of conditional election which teaches that the saved are elected because God looked down the corridor of time and saw that they would respond in faith. So, their salvation is conditional upon themselves and their faith.

Therefore, the conditional election view claims that the individual elected himself, not that God elected him.

That's the same problem with the corporate election view..basically it's a claim that God doesn't elect individuals; they elect themselves.
 

UnitedWithChrist

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#85
Here are a few verses on reprobation:

Jude 1:4 For certain people have crept in unnoticed who long ago were designated for this condemnation, ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into sensuality and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.
(ESV)

John 12:39-40 39 Therefore they could not believe. For again Isaiah said, 40 “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart,
lest they see with their eyes, and understand with their heart, and turn, and I would heal them.”

Matthew 11:25-27 25 At that time Jesus declared, “I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to little children; 26 yes, Father, for such was your gracious will. 27 All things have been handed over to me by my Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.

These are verses relating to reprobation. Notice that God hardens the heart of individuals so that they will not be saved. Well, their hearts are already hard to start with, but he hardens them either further.

Romans 9 also plainly teaches about reprobation, no matter how others try to twist it (claiming it's only about nations rather than using nations to illustrate principles about individual election).
 

Melach

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Mar 28, 2019
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#86
Here are a few verses on reprobation:

Jude 1:4 For certain people have crept in unnoticed who long ago were designated for this condemnation, ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into sensuality and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.
(ESV)

John 12:39-40 39 Therefore they could not believe. For again Isaiah said, 40 “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart,
lest they see with their eyes, and understand with their heart, and turn, and I would heal them.”

Matthew 11:25-27 25 At that time Jesus declared, “I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to little children; 26 yes, Father, for such was your gracious will. 27 All things have been handed over to me by my Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.

These are verses relating to reprobation. Notice that God hardens the heart of individuals so that they will not be saved. Well, their hearts are already hard to start with, but he hardens them either further.

Romans 9 also plainly teaches about reprobation, no matter how others try to twist it (claiming it's only about nations rather than using nations to illustrate principles about individual election).
that is rough. why are these people to be blamed for anything. i will never get it. poor people
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
#87
that is rough. why are these people to be blamed for anything. i will never get it. poor people
Don't worry full on Calvinism is not true..
 

UnitedWithChrist

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#88
I made a mistake in giving thumbs up to this message. There is no such thing as unconditional election because it robs us of our free will to choose or reject God's free offer of eternal salvation.

God has chosen Christ to be the elect to save the world (Ps 89:3, Isa 42:1, 43:10, 49:7, Mat 12:18, Lk 9:35, 23:35). We, on the other hand, are chosen IN HIM (Eph. 1:4)
By the way, I don't deny that the salvation of the elect is "in Christ".

I totally believe in union with Christ.

However, election is unto union with Christ. God elects specific individuals to be joined to Christ, These individuals form his Church, the spiritual body of Christ.

The claim of "corporate election" guys is that God does not elect. The person somehow finds their way into salvation, and is united with Christ, and thus becomes "the elect" by virtue of being identified with Christ, the elect one.

However, the language of John 6, 10 is clear that the Father draws the elect person, because the person has been chosen to belong to Christ. And, the reason they believe is BECAUSE of this election. They do not believe to become part of the elect.

I also mentioned 1 Corinthians 1, that states God does not choose noble, strong, intelligent people, but chooses common, weak, less intelligent people so that his glory will be magnified through them.

A good analogy would be the star athletes who are often picking teams for intramural games. Generally, what happens is that the star athletes pick the best athletes for their team, and the worst ones are chosen last. Well, in God's economy, he would choose the worst athletes, so that his glory can be displayed maximally through weakness.

And, like I've said, Reformed theology is all about glorifying God, not man. Well-instructed Reformed believers know that man is full of pride and vanity, and that God hates pride more than anything else. If someone develops pride as a believer, he can expect to be humbled through the sanctification process....and that "someone" is all of us at some points, I'm afraid.
 
Mar 28, 2016
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#90
There's not much profit in discussion with you, so don't be surprised if I don't respond to you.

Everyone can research the Scriptures I provided themselves. It's very obvious that God does elect, and the basis isn't "foreseen faith" like free-willers claim.

The main takeaway I'd like to impress upon folks is that predestination is taught in Scripture for a reason, and the reason is the encouragement of the people of God. While "free-willers" claim to be sensitive to the seeker, the reality is that most of them have little to offer the true believer. In fact, many of them deny eternal security, and strip the believer of this entitlement.
It would seem some like to murmur for the work of Jesus that works in them to both will and perform his good pleasure. He reveals to us in Hebrews as the better things that do accompany salvation a promise he will not forget the good works we have offer towards his name, as proof he is working in us.

For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Do all things without murmurings and disputings: Philipian 2:13-14

That usually comes from the sign and wonders seekers (sign gifts not such thing) ) Thinking they should a have a greater reward than a penny. . which equals salvation. They it would seem desire two cents worth

Matthew 20:13 But he answered one of them, and said, Friend, I do thee no wrong: didst not thou agree with me for a penny?

But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, things that "accompany salvation", though we thus speak. For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.Hebrews 6:9-10
 

UnitedWithChrist

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#91
that is rough. why are these people to be blamed for anything. i will never get it. poor people
They are not innocent. They are enemies of God. And, so are all of those that God extends mercy to.

By the way, free-willer thought appeals to the fleshly man, so expect your heart strings to be plucked by the alleged injustices of Reformed theology. The reality is that NO MAN DESERVES ANYTHING.

What they receive is more mercy than they deserve. That includes me and you.

Fleshly men have an entitlement mentality. They think they are entitled, and therefore don't recognize grace when they see it.
 

ForestGreenCook

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Jul 8, 2018
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#92
but if Jesus says only those will believe who are sheep. and those who dont believe its beacuse they arent sheep. that tells me there is no chance for those non-sheep in that context . because they just wont believe.

thats what it says. but God also says He wants all saved and to come to knowledge of truth but why does it say that then? dont say that all kinds of men excuse its so weak.
I know that your question is directed to "unitedwithChrist" but if you both would allow me, I would like to interject my rendition of how I understand the scriptures to teach. Anyone who believes that God wants to eternally save all mankind will run into many "seemingly" contradicting scriptures. Just remember that all scriptures must harmonize to understand the doctrine that Jesus taught. You have quoted from 1 Tim 2:14. The "all men" would have to mean "all elect men" to harmonize with other scriptures. The inspired words of the bible are written to God's elect instructing them as how to live their lives as they sojourn here on earth. Salvation means "a deliverance" and there is a deliverance that is not an eternal deliverance when his elect "come to a knowledge of the truth". You can also see this referenced in Romans 10:1-2-3.
 

UnitedWithChrist

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#93
You should and Augustine too while you are at it.
I focus on more modern writings. I have read excerpts in church history books. That's enough for me.

Both Augustine and John Calvin had some things right, and some things wrong. For instance, I think both believed in infant baptism. I don't think they were right on that. There are other things that are plainly biblical.

As I mentioned, I didn't learn about predestination and election from Reformed sources. I learned it through reading the Bible. I didn't even know Calvin or Augustine's names then. I agree with the Reformed doctrines of grace, though.
 

UnitedWithChrist

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#94
I know that your question is directed to "unitedwithChrist" but if you both would allow me, I would like to interject my rendition of how I understand the scriptures to teach. Anyone who believes that God wants to eternally save all mankind will run into many "seemingly" contradicting scriptures. Just remember that all scriptures must harmonize to understand the doctrine that Jesus taught. You have quoted from 1 Tim 2:14. The "all men" would have to mean "all elect men" to harmonize with other scriptures. The inspired words of the bible are written to God's elect instructing them as how to live their lives as they sojourn here on earth. Salvation means "a deliverance" and there is a deliverance that is not an eternal deliverance when his elect "come to a knowledge of the truth". You can also see this referenced in Romans 10:1-2-3.
The traditional Reformed explanation would be that "all men" refers to "all kinds of men", which is reasonable. Context is important in understanding the Bible, and the context is talking about rulers, and praying for them. God saves all kinds of men.

Another similar situation is when "all men" is talking about Jews vs. Gentiles. The prevailing belief was that God only had a relationship with the Jews. The writers of the NT were constantly referring to "all men" in the context of BOTH JEW AND GENTILE.

Given the culture of the time, it is reasonable to infer this. If a person reads carefully through the NT, they will see this recurring theme in many different places, in clearer language.

There is no distinction between rich and poor, Jew and Gentile, male and female within the Church. In this way, one could say that salvation is for "all men". However, the principle of election is also clearly taught in Scripture.

As I have mentioned, knowledge of predestination and election is crucial to church health. Believers need the confidence and unity that election brings about, as well as the humility it engenders. Portraying God as a weak god who just makes do with whatever people show up, full of pride and independence, is harmful to the church health. In fact, I think the majority in the church today are goats who have been corralled rather than sheep who have been gathered by the Master.
 

ForestGreenCook

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#95
I don't know, because I haven't read John Calvin :)

All I know is that some of his beliefs corresponded with mine, but not all of them.

By the way, I am pretty sure he would have believed in "compatibilism". This means that man has "creaturely free will", so he has free will within the constraints of his nature, but God's will is sovereign.

So, God changes the nature of the unsaved person, and this new nature leads to faith and repentance.

Before salvation, he has a fallen nature that makes sinful choices, but after salvation, he has a regenerate nature that wants to please and obey God. He still struggles with a "remnant" of the old nature that is called "the flesh" or the "old man", though.

The nature of the person is changed in the believer, and the behavior flows from the nature.

Compatibilism teaches that God exercises his sovereign authority, but that he does it in a manner that does not do violence to man's free will. Man does not have "libertarian free will", though, he has "creaturely free will". He is a creation of God, and is subject to his sovereignty.

I have used the analogy of a fish in a pond. He swims all over the pond, but is unable to jump out of the pond and live on dry land. This is similar to the creaturely free will of man. Libertarian free will, or autonomous free will, is a false teaching.
Thanks, I think we are on the same page so far. I have a different understanding than everyone on this forum of what the scriptures teach on the salvation scriptures, in that, I do not believe that all salvation scriptures are referring to an eternal deliverance, and that many of them are referring to a deliverance we receive as we live here on earth, such as 2 Tim 2:4 and Rom 10:1-2-3.
 

UnitedWithChrist

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#96
Thanks, I think we are on the same page so far. I have a different understanding than everyone on this forum of what the scriptures teach on the salvation scriptures, in that, I do not believe that all salvation scriptures are referring to an eternal deliverance, and that many of them are referring to a deliverance we receive as we live here on earth, such as 2 Tim 2:4 and Rom 10:1-2-3.
I agree that there are verses that refer to physical salvation rather than spiritual salvation throughout the Bible. For instance the Psalms make use of this language of physical salvation a LOT. In these cases, the physical salvation of Israel was typological of spiritual salvation in many cases.

I just don't think those two are referencing that type of salvation :)
 

ForestGreenCook

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#97
The traditional Reformed explanation would be that "all men" refers to "all kinds of men", which is reasonable. Context is important in understanding the Bible, and the context is talking about rulers, and praying for them. God saves all kinds of men.

Another similar situation is when "all men" is talking about Jews vs. Gentiles. The prevailing belief was that God only had a relationship with the Jews. The writers of the NT were constantly referring to "all men" in the context of BOTH JEW AND GENTILE.

Given the culture of the time, it is reasonable to infer this. If a person reads carefully through the NT, they will see this recurring theme in many different places, in clearer language.

There is no distinction between rich and poor, Jew and Gentile, male and female within the Church. In this way, one could say that salvation is for "all men". However, the principle of election is also clearly taught in Scripture.

As I have mentioned, knowledge of predestination and election is crucial to church health. Believers need the confidence and unity that election brings about, as well as the humility it engenders. Portraying God as a weak god who just makes do with whatever people show up, full of pride and independence, is harmful to the church health. In fact, I think the majority in the church today are goats who have been corralled rather than sheep who have been gathered by the Master.
When you say "God saves all kinds of men" if you mean all kinds of "elect" men, then I agree, because I do not believe the scriptures to teach that God eternally saves any that are not included in those of his elect. Then that would make 2 Tim 2:4 read "all kinds of elect men". Would it not? If I could persuade you, could you give me your views on Rom 10:1-2-3?
 

TheDivineWatermark

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Aug 3, 2018
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#98
This choice occurred before the foundation of the world, and thus is unrelated to personal merit or works of the elect

Revelation 13:8 and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain.
Do you remember our convo (different thread) where I'd pointed out how the esv [etc] (this verse) is not correct?


The text does not state "written BEFORE [pro]".

The text states: "slain FROM [apo]"


...which carries a completely different "meaning". ;)

https://biblehub.com/text/revelation/13-8.htm
 

TheDivineWatermark

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#99
However, the language of John 6, 10 is clear that the Father draws the elect person, because the person has been chosen to belong to Christ. And, the reason they believe is BECAUSE of this election. They do not believe to become part of the elect.
I made a post covering some of "John 6" some time back:

[quoting that entire post (some things might not transfer correctly, the emphasis, etc)]


[note, this post will cover the following passages: Acts 3:22-26; Matthew 10:5-7; John 12:32-33; John 6:41-58 [64][35]; John 7:17; John 17:6-20; 1 John 4:14; 1 John 5:10-12; along with my comments]

Acts 3 [blb]-

22 For Moses said, ‘The Lord your God will raise up to you [this is His earthly ministry BEFORE His death] a prophet like me out from your brothers. You will listen to Him in all things, as many as He might say to you. 23 And it will be that every soul who might not heed that prophet will be utterly destroyed out from the people.’
24 And also all the prophets from Samuel, and those subsequently, as many as have spoken, also have proclaimed these days. 25 You are the sons of the prophets and of the covenant that God made with your fathers, saying to Abraham, ‘And in your seed all the families of the earth will be blessed.’ 26 God, having raised up His servant [that is, in His earthly ministry BEFORE His death], sent Him first to you, blessing you in turning away each of you from your wickednesses.”

[and verse 19 had said, "Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; And He shall send Jesus Christ... Whom..." etc]

[Matt10:5-7 had said, "5 These twelve, Jesus sent forth, having instructed them, saying: “Do not go into the way of the Gentiles and do not enter into any city of the Samaritans. 6 But go rather to those being the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7 And going on, proclaim, saying, ‘The kingdom of the heavens has drawn near!’ (this is not what is to be proclaimed presently [in "this present age [singular]"], but will again in the future trib, in slightly differing phrasing) ]


John 12:32-33 [blb] -

32 And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all to Myself.” 33 Now He was saying this, signifying by what death He was about to die. [compare this with your John 6:44 verse]


John 6:41-58 [blb] - [dialogue with skeptical inquiring multitude (vv.24-29), that though they'd seen Him, still did not believe (v.36) ]

41 Therefore the Jews were grumbling about Him because He said, “I am the bread having come down from heaven.” 42 And they were saying, “Is this not Jesus the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How then does He say, ‘I have come down from heaven?’”

43 Jesus answered and said to them, “Do not grumble with one another. 44 No one is able to come to Me unless the Father, the one having sent Me, draws him, and I will raise him up in the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets: ‘And they will all be taught of God.’ Everyone having heard from the Father and having learned, comes to Me. 46 Not that anyone has seen the Father, except the One being from God; He has seen the Father.
47 Truly, truly, I say to you, the one believing has eternal life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness and died. 50 This is the bread coming down from heaven, that anyone may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the living bread, having come down from heaven. If anyone shall have eaten of this bread, he will live to the age. And also, the bread that I will give for the life of the world is My flesh.”
52 Therefore the Jews were arguing with one another, saying, “How is this man able to give us His flesh to eat?”
53 Therefore Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you shall have eaten the flesh of the Son of Man, and shall have drunk His blood, you do not have life in yourselves. 54 The one eating My flesh and drinking My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up in the last day. 55 For My flesh is true food, and My blood is true drink.
56 The one eating My flesh and drinking My blood abides in Me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent Me and I live because of the Father, so also the one feeding on Me, he also will live because of Me. 58 This is the bread having come down from heaven, not as the fathers ate and died. The one eating this bread will live to the age.”


[the key issue all through is: faith or lack of faith - Jn6:29, 35, 40, 47, 64, and He symbolizes faith as appropriating/eating/drinking Himself - Jn6:35, 51, 53, 58; and then in JOHN 7:17 He emphasized the human response factor: "17 If anyone desires to do His will, he will know concerning the teaching, whether it is from God, or I speak from Myself."]


John 17:6-20 [blb] -

Prayer for the Disciples

6 I revealed Your name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world. [<--He did this personally] They were Yours, and to Me You gave them, and they have kept Your word. 7 Now they have known that all things You have given Me are of You. 8 For the words that You have given Me I have given them, and they received them, and knew truly that I came forth from You; and they believed that You sent Me.
9 I am praying concerning them. I do not pray concerning the world, but concerning those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours. 10 And all things of mine are Yours, and Yours Mine. And I have been glorified in them. 11 And I am no longer in the world, and yet they are themselves in the world, and I am coming to You.
Holy Father, keep them in Your name, which You have given Me, that they may be one as we are. 12 When I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name, which You have given Me. And I guarded them, and none of them has perished, except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.
13 But now I am coming to You, and I speak these things in the world, so that they may have My joy fulfilled within them. 14 I have given them Your word, and the world hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

15 I do not ask that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep them from evil. 16 They are not of the world, as I am not of the world. 17 Sanctify them by the truth; Your word is truth. 18 As You sent Me into the world, I also sent them into the world; 19 and for them I sanctify Myself, that they also may be sanctified in truth.

Prayer for all Believers

20 But I do not ask for these only, but also for those believing in Me through their word, [...]


[so this is showing the distinction between "they have kept your word" / He had [aorist] shown the Father to them, personally (that is, to living disciples the Father had given Him, especially the Apostles), AND "those believing IN ME through their word"--Recall 1Jn4 "14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son as Savior of the world." And 1Jn5, "10 The one believing in the Son of God has the testimony in himself; the one not believing God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has testified concerning His Son. 11 And this is the testimony: that God has given to us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12 The one having the Son has life; the one not having the Son of God does not have life."]

[end of quoting that post]
 

ForestGreenCook

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I agree that there are verses that refer to physical salvation rather than spiritual salvation throughout the Bible. For instance the Psalms make use of this language of physical salvation a LOT. In these cases, the physical salvation of Israel was typological of spiritual salvation in many cases.

I just don't think those two are referencing that type of salvation :)
I am having difficulty following your thinking. Please be patient with me. If you think that 2 Tim 2:4 ls teaching that God wants all mankind to be saved eternally by coming to a knowledge of the truth, then why the distinction between all mankind and the elect? If you will permit me, I have another question for you. What do you think the significance is for God to change Jacob's name to Israel?