Need clarity regarding this Predestination thing and something related to an election?
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I thought I'd already done that in this and the thread , 3 Tactics.
If you are keen on the Gospels harmonizing why would you use Psalm scripture out of context to make your point?
Your post: In John 6:40, did Jesus die for only those that see the Son and believe in him, or, as you say, that he died for all mankind? What people did he die for? You are still eliminating the fact that God, by his foreknowledge, saw that no one would seek him (Psalms 53:2) and before they would seek him, he had to exchange their heart in the new birth, being born again (Ezk 11:19 - - 2 Cor 3:3). It is necessary for the cross for God's elect because it is a requirement that sin must be punished. I understand that you are trying to teach Dibby 53 the scriptures, the best way that you know how, but you are teaching him a false doctrine. John 6:65, Therefore, said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except, it were given unto him of my Father. Only those men (women) that were given to them by the Father could come.
I take exception to the claim I am teaching false doctrine. As Dibby said of themselves, they are able to think for themselves.
False Doctrine, would be the idea that God is the ideal deity in Calvin's philosophy. God forbid!
I'll make a synopsis of John's god.
His ideal creator, before he created anything anywhere at all, decided on the idea of sin and all that would entail. Then he decided he would create a creature that could sin and suffer the consequences. Then so that many of those future creatures would suffer the consequences John's god created a race of creatures called human starting with but two so as to set the whole thing in motion.
But before John's god created those two creatures he had the foreknowledge to know there would be lots more that would come to life on the planet John's god was also going to make for them to live on.
And so John's god decided he would make all those creatures of the future totally immoral. Depraved because they were creatures that he'd let fall into the trap of the sin he installed in a garden where he'd create those first two creatures. The world to come , those other future creatures would then blame the first two of their kind for their being born totally immoral and depraved. Unable to consciously recognize anything good, spiritual.
Then John's god decided so as to not let the future planet and creatures go totally off the rails he'd let some of them to escape that depraved immoral consciousness their creator had caused them to be born into. And he'd even give those future freed one's names so he'd remember who to release from that bondage. The rest , well, their names didn't matter. They'd live and die that way. Immoral and depraved.
But there had to be a cause. Something had to cause one part of that creature group that would be let to escape their creaturely confinement of immoral depravity.
But of course! John's god thought, I'll send myself to suffer and die so I can free those creatures I've already decided to free from the immoral totally depraved condition I put them into myself. And then, I'll get that list of names and free them from their immoral total depravity and then I'll imbue them with faith in my suffering and dying for their sake, when it really wasn't for their sake at all because I'm John's god and in control of the whole thing!
And those chosen creatures will be saved from the fate I set out for all those immoral totally depraved creatures to suffer at the end of their days. They'll worship me, have faith in me, whether they want it or not! Because now they can understand me when I speak to them in the book I wrote.
I'll call it irresistible! And after I imbue them with that irresistible grace I'll give them faith in me. And that will separate them from those other creatures that are just like them but not as great because they're not selected to be manipulated by me from before time began.
And they'll love me because I made sure that would be irresistible to them because I'm benevolent.
Or, the short version:
John's god made depraved man according to plan.
god decided to save certain of those depraved people by name before there was anything created to need saving from.
John's god did this by bestowing, at his time an choosing, his grace into those he knew by name before all creation, whether they wanted it or not. And this was so they'd be able to then be imbued by him with faith in him because now John's god had made it so those special creatures could understand him.
And John's god would call that, grace. And it would carry forth those named faith filled creatures all through their life so that at the end of their days they could say they were saved! From the condition their god planned for them before anything came to exist at all.
My friend, the entire Bible refutes John's god.
Are you just going to ignore the scriptures that I gave you that are examples of salvation, deliverance, received here on earth Acts and 1 Tim?
You sound like a politician, lot of talking around the subject in order to not address the subject.
Is the book of John included in any of the versions of the bible that you study? Acts 17:23, For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an alter with this description. TO THE UNKNOWN GOD Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him I declare unto you. If you won't worship John's God, you might learn to worship Paul's God, who is unknown to you.
You sound like a politician from the left side of the aisle who ignores the address of a subject because you don't like what was said of it.
I read you wrong, sorry. I just thought it was the Apostle John, because you refute his statement that Jesus only died for those that his Father gave him.
I did refer to John Calvin in my remarks prior. I should have been more clear so as to distinguish my fuller statement concerning John's god from the Apostle John and his writings. I was in error for that and it is therefore understandable that would make a reader confused. I apologize for my omission.
I wish I could go in and edit so as to afford better understanding but the system has a time limit for that unfortunately .
Thank you for your gracious reply and understanding.
The elect is the anointed one. By one it means one. While many are called, few are chosen, but only one is the elect. The elect has unction because he knows the all living.
I agree with you, yet when we have learned humility of Jesus and meekness: to be trained by God as friends, then we are permitted to go on to perfection. "Let us go on to perfection, and this we will do if God permits. In the perfect will of God we don't decide the outcome, being yealded to God. "Strive to enter in at the straight gate, for many shall seek to enter in and shall not be able. Having gone on to perfection would be like Paul at the end of His life. "I have fought.a.good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the Faith, from now on there is kept for me a crowm of righteousness form the rigjteous judge, and mot for me only but for all who Love Jis apearing."
We are instructed to strive for perfection, but none of us obtain it, not even Paul. There is only one man that obtains perfection, and that is the man Jesus.
Perfection is, "it's no longer I that lives but Christ that Lives in me." Yes it requires not to be offended in having to suffer with Christ. "You have not hindered me at all... I die daily." The way of perfection is not learned from men but by the Holy Spirit. I have been researching for three years and the Lord told me: Your not ready. But not to discourage, and gabe me many words to encourage me.
I
Ascending in contemplation worship, by St John of the Cross:
To see ourselves there, without knowing where we are; unknowing in profound solitude, transcending all knowledge: experiencing Peace and Holiness that can’t be held; stammering and withdrawn from senses, overwhelmed and absorbed with thanksgiving beyond words; entering into Wisdom transcending knowledge. To seek union with God alone, whose Love transforms us into new creatures in Christ; dying with Him daily in the reconciliation of the cross, that we may live in Him: wounding our soul in its deepest desire, to bring us in union with Him. He who overcomes is free of himself and his knowledge seems worthless: forgetting created things, feeling abandoned, to ascend in the Love of God whose purpose in creation is for us to share. To ascend in fellowship with God whose Joy is for us to be with Him in eternity.
Directions received in preparation for Journey:
"We will give ourselves to prayer."
Withhold nothing, take nothing, you have to be determined to succeed. Your prayer life must increase, content to participate in the mystery of God. Go, this is a time of prayer; it’s the only way you'll succeed. Keep yourself in the Love of God, don't give up: you’re not ready. Be still: know that I Am with you. "Wait on the Lord and He will strengthen your heart." Your prayer life has to extend in all areas of your life. What you do not realize is that the war is accomplished: it's not as simple as you getting the power, you have to Love the Truth. Give up your life, no more going back to idols.
Don't be afraid, above all surrender (give Him your fear). Don’t stay outside, don’t worry, Psalm 118. Be Faithful unto death. Seek Me more than your necessary food. Don’t fight against the Holy Ghost, give yourself to prayer. Give yourself to Him, you need to change, no longer desire earthly things, come and be reconciled. Make the most of your time, live in Prayer, don't want anything else. Don’t forget.
Included: A poem on contemplation worship by St John of the cross who wrote The dark night of the soul: the book that motivated me to research the Way of perfection, and following the poem, the words of encouragement from the Holy Spirit.
Ascending in contemplation worship, by St John of the Cross:
To see ourselves there, without knowing where we are; unknowing in profound solitude, transcending all knowledge: experiencing Peace and Holiness that can’t be held; stammering and withdrawn from senses, overwhelmed and absorbed with thanksgiving beyond words; entering into Wisdom transcending knowledge. To seek union with God alone, whose Love transforms us into new creatures in Christ; dying with Him daily in the reconciliation of the cross, that we may live in Him: wounding our soul in its deepest desire, to bring us in union with Him. He who overcomes is free of himself and his knowledge seems worthless: forgetting created things, feeling abandoned, to ascend in the Love of God whose purpose in creation is for us to share. To ascend in fellowship with God whose Joy is for us to be with Him in eternity.
Directions received in preparation for Journey:
"We will give ourselves to prayer."
Withhold nothing, take nothing, you have to be determined to succeed. Your prayer life must increase, content to participate in the mystery of God. Go, this is a time of prayer; it’s the only way you'll succeed. Keep yourself in the Love of God, don't give up: you’re not ready. Be still: know that I Am with you. "Wait on the Lord and He will strengthen your heart." Your prayer life has to extend in all areas of your life. What you do not realize is that the war is accomplished: it's not as simple as you getting the power, you have to Love the Truth. Give up your life, no more going back to idols.
Don't be afraid, above all surrender (give Him your fear). Don’t stay outside, don’t worry, Psalm 118. Be Faithful unto death. Seek Me more than your necessary food. Don’t fight against the Holy Ghost, give yourself to prayer. Give yourself to Him, you need to change, no longer desire earthly things, come and be reconciled. Make the most of your time, live in Prayer, don't want anything else. Don’t forget.
I think the problem Calvinist devotees have with scripture is, besides being sure they are one of the Elect Calvin spoke of, is that the scripture speaks of God and from God's Omniscient perspective.
God would foreknow for whom the Good News would resonate. He would even know them by name, those names being written in the Lambs Book of Life. And likely we all at one time or other, or perhaps still, think that what the passage is telling us in various parts of the Bible , The Book of Revelation chapter 20 and verse 12 , The Book of Philippians chapter 4 verse 3, and so forth, is that Katherine _______, Larry __________, David ___________, are what is being referred to.
But the Bible , as many of us have discovered if we've sat down and spent a great deal of time with it, is not like any other bound tome, or book. You read it , it says what is on the page, and that's how you're suppose to understand it. Move on to the next book.
No, the Bible is a doorway the moment you open the cover. It has passages, and other doorways, and secrets and hidden meanings that deliver the words of an eternal God who spoke to the world for as long as it shall live.
The idea of names, as we understand the word in western culture, is likely not what is being said about the Lamb's Book of Life.
And the sheep of God are not a select number of persons by name who are the only ones predestined for salvation. As if a certain number were pre-selected by the creator of all things and which would necessarily mean that same creator predetermined a certain number of names would suffer eternity in damnation . That idea blows Omni-Benevolence out of the water I think.
Reference: NAME
This is why I offer links to resources that support what I say or sustain what I have referred to in a scripture. Below is another example. Because if we allow ourselves to accept that God created us totally depraved and then He Himself made us to be in His grace and then have faith so as to gain eternal life in the end, we will be led to believe we have nothing to do with the matter of loving God and hearkening unto His eternal word so as to repent and be saved. It is all done for us, as one tradition would have it. And conversely, for those for whom it does not apply, well, they're to remain totally depraved and damned, as was also pre-arranged by the Father.
Just as context is vital to recognize when reading any particular scripture verse, so too is translation. It is my hope that the resource below helps to further this thread into the light of God's eternal love. Love for the whole world, as He wishes none should perish. [The Book of John chapter 3 and particularly verse 16. The Book of 2ndPeter chapter 3 verse 9 ]
Q & A: Do you think the Lord knows who are his, and who isn't?andIs the Bible its own expositor, or do we need to study the original Greek & Hebrew texts? By Craig Bluemel
(Excerpt)
Do you think the Lord knows who are his, and who isn't?
The answer to this question is easy; below is listed the same passage in a few different varying translation, all of which convey the same idea:
1 Corinthians 8:1 –3 Knowledge, however, tends to make people conceited; it is love that builds us up. 2 If any one imagines that he already possesses any true knowledge, he has as yet attained to no knowledge of the kind to which he ought to have attained; 3 but if any one loves God, that man is known by God. Weymouth New Testament Translation
1 Corinthians 8:1-3 Knowledge, however, tends to make people conceited; it is love that builds us up. 2 If any one imagines that he already possesses any true knowledge, he has as yet attained to no knowledge of the kind to which he ought to have attained; 3 but if any one loves God, that man is known by God. Weymouth New Testament Translation
1 Corinthians 8:1-3 Knowledge, puffeth up, but, love, buildeth up; 2 If anyone thinketh that he knoweth anything, not yet knoweth he, as he must needs come to know, 3 but, if anyone loveth God, the same, is known of him—Rotherham’s Emphasized Bible
1 Corinthians 8:1-3 we know, that in all of us there is knowledge; and knowledge inflateth, but love edifieth. 2 And if any one thinketh that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet, as he ought to know it. 3 But if any one loveth God, that man is known of him. 1851 Murdoch New Testament
1 Corinthians 8:1-3 It is easy to think that we "know" over problems like this, but we should remember that while this “knowing” may make a man look big, it is only love that can make him grow to his full stature. 2 For if a man thinks he "knows" he may still be quite ignorant of what he ought to know. 3 But if he loves God he is the man who is known to God. Phillip’s New Testament
A host of scripture passages affirms the tenet taught in 1 Corinthians 8:1-3; God “knows” those that are “His” provided he or she “loves” God. [end of excerpt]
God loves you! YOU! That is right now reading this way too long a post, boy that's a first for me
. And if you love Him back He knows you. He knew you because you are of God. The Book of Colossians chapter 1 verses 16-20 , The Book of John chapter 1 and particularly verses 1 thru 4. Believe and be saved. 
True. The Bible is God's word to the world. That is the , many that are called because Jesus died to take the worlds sins on himself.
But few are chosen, those are the select, meaning those who fall under the "whosoever that believes" criteria in the Book of John chapter 3 and verse 16.
Matthew 22:14 Adj-NMP
GRK: ὀλίγοι δὲ ἐκλεκτοί
NAS: are called, but few [are] chosen.
KJV: but few [are] chosen.
INT: few however chosen
eklektos: select, by impl. favorite
Original Word: ἐκλεκτός, ή, όν
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: eklektos
Phonetic Spelling: (ek-lek-tos')
Definition: select, by implication favorite
Usage: chosen out, elect, choice, select, sometimes as subst: of those chosen out by God for the rendering of special service to Him (of the Hebrew race, particular Hebrews, the Messiah, and the Christians).
I think it would be very confusing and a challenge to defend that the Father said His hope is that none should perish in their sins but that all would come unto repentance, having predetermined he already knew He had selected only certain one's to be saved.
Reformed Theology has God doing all the work so that those he pre-selected would be saved an through no effort of their own. Like, coming to faith in Christ.
Jesus chose us we did not choose Him. True. The world left to its ways would have preferred the carnal nature live long and prosper. Jesus came to save the world from its sins. Jesus died for the "us" in that phrase. Those are the, whosoever's, in the Book of John 3:16
I am not ignoring the scriptures posited by you, by your interpretation of them. We've been down this road before and you will not concede and neither will I.
I think the problem Calvinist devotees have with scripture is, besides being sure they are one of the Elect Calvin spoke of, is that the scripture speaks of God and from God's Omniscient perspective.
God would foreknow for whom the Good News would resonate. He would even know them by name, those names being written in the Lambs Book of Life. And likely we all at one time or other, or perhaps still, think that what the passage is telling us in various parts of the Bible , The Book of Revelation chapter 20 and verse 12 , The Book of Philippians chapter 4 verse 3, and so forth, is that Katherine _______, Larry __________, David ___________, are what is being referred to.
But the Bible , as many of us have discovered if we've sat down and spent a great deal of time with it, is not like any other bound tome, or book. You read it , it says what is on the page, and that's how you're suppose to understand it. Move on to the next book.
No, the Bible is a doorway the moment you open the cover. It has passages, and other doorways, and secrets and hidden meanings that deliver the words of an eternal God who spoke to the world for as long as it shall live.
The idea of names, as we understand the word in western culture, is likely not what is being said about the Lamb's Book of Life.
And the sheep of God are not a select number of persons by name who are the only ones predestined for salvation. As if a certain number were pre-selected by the creator of all things and which would necessarily mean that same creator predetermined a certain number of names would suffer eternity in damnation . That idea blows Omni-Benevolence out of the water I think.
Reference: NAME
This is why I offer links to resources that support what I say or sustain what I have referred to in a scripture. Below is another example. Because if we allow ourselves to accept that God created us totally depraved and then He Himself made us to be in His grace and then have faith so as to gain eternal life in the end, we will be led to believe we have nothing to do with the matter of loving God and hearkening unto His eternal word so as to repent and be saved. It is all done for us, as one tradition would have it. And conversely, for those for whom it does not apply, well, they're to remain totally depraved and damned, as was also pre-arranged by the Father.
Just as context is vital to recognize when reading any particular scripture verse, so too is translation. It is my hope that the resource below helps to further this thread into the light of God's eternal love. Love for the whole world, as He wishes none should perish. [The Book of John chapter 3 and particularly verse 16. The Book of 2ndPeter chapter 3 verse 9 ]
Q & A: Do you think the Lord knows who are his, and who isn't?andIs the Bible its own expositor, or do we need to study the original Greek & Hebrew texts? By Craig Bluemel
(Excerpt)
Do you think the Lord knows who are his, and who isn't?
The answer to this question is easy; below is listed the same passage in a few different varying translation, all of which convey the same idea:
1 Corinthians 8:1 –3 Knowledge, however, tends to make people conceited; it is love that builds us up. 2 If any one imagines that he already possesses any true knowledge, he has as yet attained to no knowledge of the kind to which he ought to have attained; 3 but if any one loves God, that man is known by God. Weymouth New Testament Translation
1 Corinthians 8:1-3 Knowledge, however, tends to make people conceited; it is love that builds us up. 2 If any one imagines that he already possesses any true knowledge, he has as yet attained to no knowledge of the kind to which he ought to have attained; 3 but if any one loves God, that man is known by God. Weymouth New Testament Translation
1 Corinthians 8:1-3 Knowledge, puffeth up, but, love, buildeth up; 2 If anyone thinketh that he knoweth anything, not yet knoweth he, as he must needs come to know, 3 but, if anyone loveth God, the same, is known of him—Rotherham’s Emphasized Bible
1 Corinthians 8:1-3 we know, that in all of us there is knowledge; and knowledge inflateth, but love edifieth. 2 And if any one thinketh that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet, as he ought to know it. 3 But if any one loveth God, that man is known of him. 1851 Murdoch New Testament
1 Corinthians 8:1-3 It is easy to think that we "know" over problems like this, but we should remember that while this “knowing” may make a man look big, it is only love that can make him grow to his full stature. 2 For if a man thinks he "knows" he may still be quite ignorant of what he ought to know. 3 But if he loves God he is the man who is known to God. Phillip’s New Testament
A host of scripture passages affirms the tenet taught in 1 Corinthians 8:1-3; God “knows” those that are “His” provided he or she “loves” God. [end of excerpt]
God loves you! YOU! That is right now reading this way too long a post, boy that's a first for me
Believe and be saved? I am ALREADY saved...unless you think otherwise?