Did Jesus and Paul teach differnt gospels?

[FollowtheShepherd]

People need to ask themselves and others.

What is the Gospel unto Salvation?

This is a summed up version imo:

The Lamb

Luke 24:44-46, “And He said to them, “These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all have to be fulfilled that were written in the Law, the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me. Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures, and said to them, “Thus it has been written, and so it was necessary for the Messiah to suffer and to rise again from the dead the third day.”

Follow the Lamb

Acts 3:19-26, " 19 Repent therefore, and turn back, that your sins may be blotted out, 20 that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, and that he may send the Christ appointed for you, Jesus, 21 whom heaven must receive until the time for restoring all the things about which God spoke by the mouth of his holy prophets long ago. 22 Moses said, ‘The Lord God will raise up for you a prophet like me from your brothers. You shall listen to him in whatever he tells you. 23 And it shall be that every soul who does not listen to that prophet shall be destroyed from the people.’ 24 And all the prophets who have spoken, from Samuel and those who came after him, also proclaimed these days. 25 You are the sons of the prophets and of the covenant that God made with your fathers, saying to Abraham, ‘And in your offspring shall all the families of the earth be blessed.’ 26 God, having raised up his servant, sent him to you first, to bless you by turning every one of you from your wickedness.”

The Lion returns and judges

John 5:28-29, " 28 Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment."

the kingdom is eternal

Revelation 21:1-4, " 1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. 2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God. 4 He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.”

 

[Absolutely]

Acts 21:24, "Take them, and be purified with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads. Then everyone will know that those things they were informed about you (forsaking the Law), were lies, and that you (Paul), yourself, walk orderly, and keep the Law."

Why did many think Paul taught against the law, and why do the vast majority of people today use Paul to say the law is gone/done away/not to be followed in some form or another. Did Paul teach against the law?

Romans

The law reveals sin but cannot fix it. (Romans 3:20)

If the law worked then faith would be irrelevant. (Romans 4:14)

The law brings wrath upon those who follow it. (Romans 4:15)

The purpose of the law was to increase sin. (Romans 5:20)

Christians are not under the law. (Romans 6:14)

Christians have been delivered from the law. (Romans 7:1-6)

The law which promises life only brings death through sin. (Romans 7:10)

The law makes you sinful beyond measure. (Romans 7:13)

The law is weak. (Romans 8:2-3)

1 Corinthians

The strength of sin is the law (1 Corinthians 15:56)

2 Corinthians

The law is a ministry of death. (2 Corinthians 3:7)

The law is a ministry of condemnation. (2 Corinthians 3:9)

The law has no glory at all in comparison with the New Covenant. (2 Corinthians 3:10)

The law is fading away. (2 Corinthians 3:11)

Anywhere the law is preached it produces a mind-hardening and a heart-hardening veil. (2 Corinthians 3:14-15)

Galatians

Christians are dead to the law. (Galatians 2:19)

The law frustrates grace. (Galatians 2:21)

To go back to the law after embracing faith is “stupid”. (Galatians 3:1)

The law curses all who practice it and fail to do it perfectly. (Galatians 3:10)

The law has nothing to do with faith. (Galatians 3:11-12)

The law was a curse that Christ redeemed us from. (Galatians 3:13)

The law functioned in God’s purpose as a temporary covenant from Moses till John the Baptist announced Christ. (Galatians 3:16 & 19,

If the law worked God would have used it to save us. (Galatians 3:21)

The law was our prison. (Galatians 3:23)

The law makes you a slave like Hagar. (Galatians 4:24)

Ephesians

Christ has abolished the law which was a wall of hostility (Ephesians 2:15)

Philippians

Paul considered everything the law gained him as “skybalon” which is Greek for “poop”. (Philippians 3:4-8)

1 Timothy

It was made for the unrighteous but not for the righteous. (1 Timothy 1:9-10)

Part of the mis understanding is in "source"
What is the source of my salvation?
The source of my walk?
The source of my uprightness/holiness?

My ability?
My discipline?
My adherence to ordinances/commands?

Or a on fire relationship with a savior inhabiting my temple and a yielding to him and his desires?

 

[FollowtheShepherd]

Clever.
"Prior to his ascention"

(So as to give room to reply about Jesus teaching Paul exclusively outside anyone else)

Old Jesus being enlightened by paul who was enlightened by new improved Jesus.

Thank God i will never have to unlearn such convoluted hogwash

This.

If Jesus and Paul teach the same I can simply go to the Shepherd Jesus.

If Jesus and Paul do not teach the same thing then there is a problem because Jesus said:

Mat 24:35, “Heaven and earth may pass away, but My words (teachings) will not pass away.”

John 14:23-26, " 23 Jesus answered him, “If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. 24 Whoever does not love me does not keep my words. And the word that you hear is not mine but the Father's who sent me. 25 “These things I have spoken to you while I am still with you. 26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you."

Therefore there is not change in doctrine according to Jesus own words. I will trust my salvation in the hand of the Lamb of God, the one and ONLY Shepherd and the coming Judge:

John 12:48-49, " 48 The one who rejects me and does not receive my words has a judge; the word that I have spoken will judge him on the last day. 49 For I have not spoken on my own authority, but the Father who sent me has himself given me a commandment—what to say and what to speak.

 

[mailmandan]

People need to ask themselves and others.

What is the Gospel unto Salvation?

Amen! The gospel is a message of grace to be received through faith. The gospel is not a set of rituals to perform, a code of laws to be obeyed or a check list of good works to accomplish as a prerequisite for salvation. The gospel is not salvation by “grace plus law, faith plus works” which is a “different” gospel. (Galatians 1:6-9)

*The gospel simply sets forth Christ crucified, buried and risen (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and is the power of God unto salvation for everyone who BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16) To “believe” the gospel is to trust in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation.

 

[FollowtheShepherd]

Part of the mis understanding is in "source"

This is a good point IMO. I would like to go over this. Jesus the chief cornerstone is the source:

Acts 3:19-23, " 19 Repent therefore, and turn back, that your sins may be blotted out, 20 that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, and that he may send the Christ appointed for you, Jesus, 21 whom heaven must receive until the time for restoring all the things about which God spoke by the mouth of his holy prophets long ago. 22 Moses said, ‘The Lord God will raise up for you a prophet like me from your brothers. You shall listen to him in whatever he tells you. 23 And it shall be that every soul who does not listen to that prophet shall be destroyed from the people.’

What is the source of my salvation?

Jesus
Psalm 37:39-40, " 39 The salvation of the righteous is from the LORD; he is their stronghold in the time of trouble. 40 The LORD helps them and delivers them; he delivers them from the wicked and saves them, because they take refuge in him."

Psalm 68:19-20, " 19 Blessed be the Lord, who daily bears us up; God is our salvation. — Selah 20 Our God is a God of salvation, and to GOD, the Lord, belong deliverances from death."

1 Peter 1:17-21, " 17 And if you call on him as Father who judges impartially according to each one's deeds, conduct yourselves with fear throughout the time of your exile, 18 knowing that you were ransomed from the futile ways inherited from your forefathers, not with perishable things such as silver or gold, 19 but with the precious blood of Christ, like that of a lamb without blemish or spot. 20 He was foreknown before the foundation of the world but was made manifest in the last times for the sake of you 21 who through him are believers in God, who raised him from the dead and gave him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.

The source of my walk?

Jesus
Psalms 32:8-9, " 8 I will instruct you and teach you in the way you should go; I will counsel you with my eye upon you. 9 Be not like a horse or a mule, without understanding, which must be curbed with bit and bridle, or it will not stay near you."

John 6:63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life."

John 10:27-30, “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they will never perish; neither will any man snatch them out of My hand. My Father, Who gave them to Me, is greater than all; and no man is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand: I and My Father are in accord.”

The source of my uprightness/holiness?

Jesus
Hebrews 10:10 By this will of God, we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once and for all.

Isaiah 54:11-17, " 11 “O afflicted one, storm-tossed and not comforted, behold, I will set your stones in antimony, and lay your foundations with sapphires. 12 I will make your pinnacles of agate, your gates of carbuncles, and all your wall of precious stones. 13 All your children shall be taught by the LORD, and great shall be the peace of your children. 14 In righteousness you shall be established; you shall be far from oppression, for you shall not fear; and from terror, for it shall not come near you. 15 If anyone stirs up strife, it is not from me; whoever stirs up strife with you shall fall because of you. 16 Behold, I have created the smith who blows the fire of coals and produces a weapon for its purpose. I have also created the ravager to destroy; 17 no weapon that is fashioned against you shall succeed, and you shall refute every tongue that rises against you in judgment. This is the heritage of the servants of the LORD and their righteousness from me, declares the LORD.”

Psalms 121:1-8, " 1 A Song of degrees. I will lift up mine eyes unto the hills, from whence cometh my help. 2 My help [cometh] from the LORD, which made heaven and earth. 3 He will not suffer thy foot to be moved: he that keepeth thee will not slumber. 4 Behold, he that keepeth Israel shall neither slumber nor sleep. 5 The LORD [is] thy keeper: the LORD [is] thy shade upon thy right hand. 6 The sun shall not smite thee by day, nor the moon by night. 7 The LORD shall preserve thee from all evil: he shall preserve thy soul. 8 The LORD shall preserve thy going out and thy coming in from this time forth, and even for evermore.

My ability?

Jesus
John 15:4-5, " 4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. 5 I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing."

Hebrews 10:16-17, " 16 “This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my laws on their hearts, and write them on their minds,” 17 then he adds, “I will remember their sins and their lawless deeds no more.”

My discipline?

Jesus
Hebrews 12:3-17, " 3 Consider him who endured from sinners such hostility against himself, so that you may not grow weary or fainthearted. 4 In your struggle against sin you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood. 5 And have you forgotten the exhortation that addresses you as sons? “My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord, nor be weary when reproved by him. 6 For the Lord disciplines the one he loves, and chastises every son whom he receives.” 7 It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons. For what son is there whom his father does not discipline? 8 If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons. 9 Besides this, we have had earthly fathers who disciplined us and we respected them. Shall we not much more be subject to the Father of spirits and live? 10 For they disciplined us for a short time as it seemed best to them, but he disciplines us for our good, that we may share his holiness. 11 For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant, but later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it. 12 Therefore lift your drooping hands and strengthen your weak knees, 13 and make straight paths for your feet, so that what is lame may not be put out of joint but rather be healed. 14 Strive for peace with everyone, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord. 15 See to it that no one fails to obtain the grace of God; that no “root of bitterness” springs up and causes trouble, and by it many become defiled; 16 that no one is sexually immoral or unholy like Esau, who sold his birthright for a single meal. 17 For you know that afterward, when he desired to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no chance to repent, though he sought it with tears."

My adherence to ordinances/commands?

Jesus
John 13:15, “For I (Jesus) gave you an example, that you should do as I have done to you.”

John 10:16, “And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to My voice. So there will be one flock, one Shepherd.”

Mat 24:35, “Heaven and earth may pass away, but My words (teachings) will not pass away.”

 

[FollowtheShepherd]

Or a on fire relationship with a savior inhabiting my temple and a yielding to him and his desires?

Jesus
John 10:27-30, "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they will never perish; neither will any man snatch them out of My hand. My Father, Who gave them to Me, is greater than all; and no man is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand: I and My Father are in accord."

John 14:26, “But the Comforter; the Holy Spirit which God will send in My Name will teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatever I (Jesus) have said to you.”

1 John 3:24, “And the one guarding His commands stays in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He stays in us, by the Spirit which He gave us.”

Ezekiel 36:26-27, " 26 And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.

John 15:1-11, " 1 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in me that does not bear fruit he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 Already you are clean because of the word that I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me. 5 I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned. 7 If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8 By this my Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit and so prove to be my disciples. 9 As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Abide in my love. 10 If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commandments and abide in his love. 11 These things I have spoken to you, that my joy may be in you, and that your joy may be full.

 

[FollowtheShepherd]

Amen! The gospel is a message of grace to be received through faith. The gospel is not a set of rituals to perform, a code of laws to be obeyed or a check list of good works to accomplish as a prerequisite for salvation. The gospel is not salvation by “grace plus law, faith plus works” which is a “different” gospel. (Galatians 1:6-9)

*The gospel simply sets forth Christ crucified, buried and risen (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and is the power of God unto salvation for everyone who BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16) To “believe” the gospel is to trust in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation.

Do you believe Jesus words in John 5:28-29 posted below? Because you did not post any of Jesus words. Can you explain those in your view to me, that would go a long way.

Well faith without works is dead:

James 2:26, "For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so belief without works is dead also."

Jesus empowers us to walk in is way:

1 John 3:24, “And the one guarding His commands stays in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He stays in us, by the Spirit which He gave us.”

Ezekiel 36:26-27, " 26 And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.

John 15:1-11, " 1 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in me that does not bear fruit he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 Already you are clean because of the word that I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me. 5 I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned. 7 If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8 By this my Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit and so prove to be my disciples. 9 As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Abide in my love. 10 If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commandments and abide in his love. 11 These things I have spoken to you, that my joy may be in you, and that your joy may be full.

and repentance is required:

Acts 17:30-31, " 30 The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent, 31 because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed; and of this he has given assurance to all by raising him from the dead.”

John 5:28-29, " 28 Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.

Luke 5:31-32, " 31 And Jesus answered them, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. 32 I have not come to call the righteous but sinners to repentance.”

Mark 1:15 and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.”

Obedience to Jesus is required:

Acts 3:22-23, " 22 Moses said, ‘The Lord God will raise up for you a prophet like me from your brothers. You shall listen to him in whatever he tells you. 23 And it shall be that every soul who does not listen to that prophet shall be destroyed from the people.’

Those in the kingdom do obey God's Commands:

Revelation 17 Then the dragon became furious with the woman and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus. And he stood on the sand of the sea.

Revelation 14:12-13, " 12 Here is a call for the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus. 13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying, “Write this: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.” “Blessed indeed,” says the Spirit, “that they may rest from their labors, for their deeds follow them!”

Revelation 22:14-15, " 14 Blessed [are] they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. 15 For without [are] dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

 

[Melach]

@FollowtheShepherd what happens to those Christians who are alive when Jesus returns? without st.paul's writings how can you know 1 cor 15:50-55??

if you are saying he is false apostle why did God let him in the bible????

 

[FollowtheShepherd]

are you saying st.paul was false apostle? if thats the case why is he in the bible?

Well who testifies of Paul as an apostle/disciple other than himself?

John 5:31-32, “If I testify on my own behalf, my testimony is not trustworthy. There is another who testifies about me, and I know that the testimony he gives about me is true.”

and anyone that claims to speak for God has to undergo the Duet 13 test. Any who pass these are valid, any who do no are not vaild. My purpose in making this thread is not to declare Paul a false apostle or a true apostle but rather to present my findings and ideas and hear others findings and ideas. I was told the Jesus words are basically done away and Paul speaks in Jesus place now, I was then presented with a number of verses to support this idea. I disagree with it but during this time I began to see things that I found problematic, if I present them here I fell I can come to a fuller conclusion. However so far people simply ignore what I see a problems and ignore, quote other verses or question me aobut thing not directly dealing with said problems. If someone is to pursuade me either way, true or false apostle the issues presented would have to be considered. The main 2 are the ones I just meationed. One can't testify of themselves and one must pass the Duet 13 test.

and if it wasnt for st.paul we wouldnt even know what happen to people who are alive when Jesus returns. he says we are transformed in a moment in a twinkling of an eye. if thats not in the bible we dont even know that.

Well a number of other verses tell us what will happen upon His return:

Matthew 24:29-31, " 29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Daniel 12:1-3, " 1 “At that time shall arise Michael, the great prince who has charge of your people. And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time. But at that time your people shall be delivered, everyone whose name shall be found written in the book. 2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 And those who are wise shall shine like the brightness of the sky above; and those who turn many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever.

John 5:28-29, " 28 Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.

why wouldnt God protect the bible from having false apostles in its pages?

Verse 3-4 explain it is indeed possible, God does allowan alternate route to see if we really want to follow Him and His ways.:

Deuteronomy 13:1-4, " 1 “If a prophet or a dreamer of dreams arises among you and gives you a sign or a wonder, 2 and the sign or wonder that he tells you comes to pass, and if he says, ‘Let us go after other gods,’ which you have not known, ‘and let us serve them,’ 3 you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams. For the LORD your God is testing you, to know whether you love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul. 4 You shall walk after the LORD your God and fear him and keep his commandments and obey his voice, and you shall serve him and hold fast to him."

st.peter said that many people misunderstand brother paul and wrest his writings

2 Peter does indeed say people twist Paul into lawlessness. and it seems historically and Biblicaly, as Paul mentions it, that Paul underwent a trial led by Peter, the final ruling was that none could say if Jesus appeared to Paul that was Paul's own testimony so Paul coud be considered a brother but not a chosen apostle. Also notice Paul is continually defending himself against people saying he teaches against the law and defendind that he is an apostle, but no one else confirms his apostleship.

2 Peter 3:15-17, " 15 And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, 16 as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures. 17 You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people and lose your own stability."

However Peter does not call Paul an apostle, yet Paul calls himself an apostle. Even Jesus said "own testimony is not trustworthy"

John 5:31-32, “If I testify on my own behalf, my testimony is not trustworthy. There is another who testifies about me, and I know that the testimony he gives about me is true.”

1 Corinthians 9:1-4, “9:1, "Am I not free? Am I not an apostle? Have I not seen Jesus our Lord? Are not you my workmanship in the Lord?"9:2, "If to others I am not an apostle, at least I am to you, for you are the seal of my apostleship in the Lord."9:3, "This is my defense to those who would examine me."9:4, "Do we not have the right to eat and drink?”

he says "I am not an apostle, at least I am to you, for you are the seal of my apostleship in the Lord."9:3, "This is my defense to those who would examine me"

Exceot that is not a "biblical seal" testimony of 2 or more witnesses and the Duet 13 test is the seal.

 

[Journeyman]

Greetings,
Since I have been on CC BDF I have noticed some hold a doctrine that Jesus teachings are either done away post resurrection/ascension or Jesus teachings are for Jews only and Paul's teachings are for Gentiles. I disagree with this and believe Jesus teachings are not done away and are for all people of every nation. I wanted to start a topic on this and see different views and different verses so I may know the truth. As I stated I have my view and believe it is correct.

I have two starting points:

1. While Jesus may had started in Israel, He sent all His chosen disciples to all the nations in the world:

Acts 1:6-8, " 6 So when they had come together, they asked him, “Lord, will you at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?” 7 He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or seasons that the Father has fixed by his own authority. 8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.”

2. That Jesus words while on earth in the flesh are the true doctrine to follow and still valid:

John 14:23-26, " 23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. 24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me. 25 These things have I spoken unto you, being [yet] present with you. 26 But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.”

Mat 24:35, “Heaven and earth may pass away, but My words (teachings) will not pass away.”

Paul taught the gospel that Jesus taught. Many of Paul's writings have been misunderstood.

 

[FollowtheShepherd]

@FollowtheShepherd what happens to those Christians who are alive when Jesus returns? without st.paul's writings how can you know 1 cor 15:50-55??

If you know the word you know what is true and where to find it: I did answer in a prior post, but I was re-post and expnad a bit: a number of other verses tell us what will happen upon His return:

Matthew 24:29-31, " 29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Daniel 12:1-3, " 1 “At that time shall arise Michael, the great prince who has charge of your people. And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time. But at that time your people shall be delivered, everyone whose name shall be found written in the book. 2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 And those who are wise shall shine like the brightness of the sky above; and those who turn many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever.

John 5:28-29, " 28 Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment. "

Psalms 16:10-11, " 10 For you will not abandon my soul to Sheol, or let your holy one see corruption. 11 You make known to me the path of life; in your presence there is fullness of joy; at your right hand are pleasures forevermore.

Job 19:25-26, “For I know that my Redeemer lives, and on the Last day He shall stand over the Earth; and after my skin has been destroyed, then in my body I shall see God!”

Isaiah 26:19-20, “Let Your dead live, together with my dead body, let them arise. Awake and sing, you who dwell in dust; for Your dew is a dew of light, and let the earth give birth to the departed spirits. Go, my people, enter your rooms, and shut your doors behind you; hide yourself, as it were, for a little while, until the displeasure is past.”

Hosea 6:1-3, " 1 “Come, let us return to the LORD; for he has torn us, that he may heal us; he has struck us down, and he will bind us up. 2 After two days he will revive us; on the third day he will raise us up, that we may live before him. 3 Let us know; let us press on to know the LORD; his going out is sure as the dawn; he will come to us as the showers, as the spring rains that water the earth.”

if you are saying he is false apostle why did God let him in the bible????[/QUOTE]

Verse 3-4 explain it is indeed possible, God does allow an alternate route to see if we really want to follow Him and His ways.:

Deuteronomy 13:1-4, " 1 “If a prophet or a dreamer of dreams arises among you and gives you a sign or a wonder, 2 and the sign or wonder that he tells you comes to pass, and if he says, ‘Let us go after other gods,’ which you have not known, ‘and let us serve them,’ 3 you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams. [B]For the LORD your God is testing you, to know whether you love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul[/B]. 4 You shall walk after the LORD your God and fear him and keep his commandments and obey his voice, and you shall serve him and hold fast to him."

 

[FollowtheShepherd]

Paul taught the gospel that Jesus taught. Many of Paul's writings have been misunderstood.

Thank you for the reply, and yes I do believe many things Paul said gets twisted in numerous ways. it does seem more people than I thought believe Jesus and Paul teach the same.

I have to say if they do theach the same can I not just follow Jesus words?

COnsider this:

Romans 10:9-10, “If you declare with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For one believes with his heart and is justified, and declares with his mouth and is saved.”

Mat 7:21, “Not everyone who keeps saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will get into the kingdom from heaven, but only the person who keeps doing the will of my Father in heaven.”

There are a number of other discrepancies that have yet to be cleared up, there may be proper answer to clear them up but none have been presented to me IMO.

Even times with his own words:

Galatians 2:19, “For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.”

Romans 7:25, “Thank God through Jesus the Messiah, our Lord, because with my mind I myself can serve the Law of God, even while with my human nature I serve the law of sin.”

but Jesus sets us free from being a servant of sin:

John 8:34-36, " 34 Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who practices sin is a slave to sin. 35 The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son remains forever. 36 So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.

These are some like I said there are many.

 

[FollowtheShepherd]

Jesus says:

Matthew 7:24-27, " 24 “Everyone then who hears these words of mine and does them will be like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25 And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house, but it did not fall, because it had been founded on the rock. 26 And everyone who hears these words of mine and does not do them will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. 27 And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell, and great was the fall of it.”

John 14:23-26, " 23 Jesus answered him, “If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. 24 Whoever does not love me does not keep my words. And the word that you hear is not mine but the Father's who sent me. 25 “These things I have spoken to you while I am still with you. 26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.

Can this be ignored?

 

[Melach]

If you know the word you know what is true and where to find it: I did answer in a prior post, but I was re-post and expnad a bit: a number of other verses tell us what will happen upon His return:

Matthew 24:29-31, " 29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Daniel 12:1-3, " 1 “At that time shall arise Michael, the great prince who has charge of your people. And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time. But at that time your people shall be delivered, everyone whose name shall be found written in the book. 2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 And those who are wise shall shine like the brightness of the sky above; and those who turn many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever.

John 5:28-29, " 28 Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment. "

Psalms 16:10-11, " 10 For you will not abandon my soul to Sheol, or let your holy one see corruption. 11 You make known to me the path of life; in your presence there is fullness of joy; at your right hand are pleasures forevermore.

Job 19:25-26, “For I know that my Redeemer lives, and on the Last day He shall stand over the Earth; and after my skin has been destroyed, then in my body I shall see God!”

Isaiah 26:19-20, “Let Your dead live, together with my dead body, let them arise. Awake and sing, you who dwell in dust; for Your dew is a dew of light, and let the earth give birth to the departed spirits. Go, my people, enter your rooms, and shut your doors behind you; hide yourself, as it were, for a little while, until the displeasure is past.”

Hosea 6:1-3, " 1 “Come, let us return to the LORD; for he has torn us, that he may heal us; he has struck us down, and he will bind us up. 2 After two days he will revive us; on the third day he will raise us up, that we may live before him. 3 Let us know; let us press on to know the LORD; his going out is sure as the dawn; he will come to us as the showers, as the spring rains that water the earth.”

all these verses say about resurrection but not of translation of living believers only st.paul speak about that

 

[Marcelo]

Paul shaved his head and took a vow.
Have you done that?

See how easy it is to misalign things?

Paul did some things just for the sake of reaching the Jews. I'm not sure if taking vows is wrong for Christians (I think James says it's OK), but shaving off the head was a Jewish thing. But Paul did worst than that: he circumcised Timothy -- he did what he said was wrong. Paul had Timothy circumcised probably because he wanted his disciple to be used by God to reach the Jews.

Paul did wrong but taught right: Christians are not to be circumcised.

 

[FollowtheShepherd]

all these verses say about resurrection but not of translation of living believers only st.paul speak about that

Well Paul does not explain with any more facts than the OT or the NT just uses "translated" he does not explain exactly what that means.

1 John 3:2-3, " 2 Beloved, we are God's children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is. 3 And everyone who thus hopes in him purifies himself as he is pure."

To me it not any more info just different wording.

 

[Melach]

@FollowtheShepherd where is this trial st.paul was in you mentioned? i dont know anything about it

 

[PennEd]

This is a summed up version imo:

The Lamb

Luke 24:44-46, “And He said to them, “These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all have to be fulfilled that were written in the Law, the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me. Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures, and said to them, “Thus it has been written, and so it was necessary for the Messiah to suffer and to rise again from the dead the third day.”

Follow the Lamb

Acts 3:19-26, " 19 Repent therefore, and turn back, that your sins may be blotted out, 20 that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, and that he may send the Christ appointed for you, Jesus, 21 whom heaven must receive until the time for restoring all the things about which God spoke by the mouth of his holy prophets long ago. 22 Moses said, ‘The Lord God will raise up for you a prophet like me from your brothers. You shall listen to him in whatever he tells you. 23 And it shall be that every soul who does not listen to that prophet shall be destroyed from the people.’ 24 And all the prophets who have spoken, from Samuel and those who came after him, also proclaimed these days. 25 You are the sons of the prophets and of the covenant that God made with your fathers, saying to Abraham, ‘And in your offspring shall all the families of the earth be blessed.’ 26 God, having raised up his servant, sent him to you first, to bless you by turning every one of you from your wickedness.”

The Lion returns and judges

John 5:28-29, " 28 Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment."

the kingdom is eternal

Revelation 21:1-4, " 1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. 2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God. 4 He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.”

I think you have hit on something here with this thread. Thank you. But I believe the problem lies with the question itself, or rather how it is framed. This question may be the reason there is such division between those who Trust in Christ alone and those that Trust in Christ, but think THEY have to DO things in addition to trusting in Jesus and His finished work.

THIS is THE Gospel unto Salvation:
1 Corinthians 15:1-7 New King James Version (NKJV)
The Risen Christ, Faith’s Reality
15 Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.

3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that He was seen by [a]Cephas, then by the twelve. 6 After that He was seen by over five hundred brethren at once, of whom the greater part remain to the present, but some have [b]fallen asleep. 7 After that He was seen by James, then by all the apostles.

Romans 10:9-10 King James Version (KJV)
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

We have to examine WHY Jesus came, and why He preached what He did. You won't find Jesus preaching the above Gospel to the public except perhaps here:
Matthew 12:38-40 New King James Version (NKJV)
The Scribes and Pharisees Ask for a Sign
38 Then some of the scribes and Pharisees answered, saying, “Teacher, we want to see a sign from You.”

39 But He answered and said to them, “An evil and adulterous generation seeks after a sign, and no sign will be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. 40 For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

He DID, several times, proclaim THE Gospel, His death and resurrection, to His Apostles ALONE. This was mostly because they would need to spread that Gospel all over the world.


Jesus came to fulfill the Scriptures that the Messiah had to suffer and die for the sins of the world. So His whole ministry focused on revealing His credentials that He was in fact the sinless, perfect, Lamb of God, Son of God, and in fact God in the Flesh. He did this through living a sinless life, explaining just how impossible it is to live a sinless life, and therefore the impossibility of someone attaining Salvation by living a sinless life. ONLY HE COULD DO SO. The point of His miracles was to verify, beyond any doubt, that He was who He said He was.

So this whole idea of Jesus and Paul preaching a "different" Gospel has no bearing on how people are to be saved. Jesus IS the Messiah. We are SOLELY saved by Grace, through Faith in his finished work of dying for our sins and subsequent resurrection.

THAT resolves any tension, imagined or otherwise, that there is some kind of a different Gospel being preached by Jesus and Paul.

 

[FollowtheShepherd]

Paul did some things just for the sake of reaching the Jews. I'm not sure if taking vows is wrong for Christians (I think James says it's OK), but shaving off the head was a Jewish thing. But Paul did worst than that: he circumcised Timothy -- he did what he said was wrong. Paul had Timothy circumcised probably because he wanted his disciple to be used by God to reach the Jews.

Paul did wrong but taught right: Christians are not to be circumcised.

Just to show where this is written:

Acts 16:1-3, “1 Paul came also to Derbe and to Lystra. And a disciple was there, named Timothy, the son of a Jewish woman who was a believer, but his father was a Greek, 2 and he was well spoken of by the brethren who were in Lystra and Iconium. 3 Paul wanted this man to go with him; and he took him and circumcised him because of the Jews who were in those parts, for they all knew that his father was a Greek.”

Galatians 5:2, Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all.”

2 Corinthians 8:21, “for we aim at what is honorable not only in the Lord's sight but also in the sight of men.”


Acts 16:1-3, “he took him and circumcised him because of the Jews.”

Luke 16:15, "So he told them, “You try to justify yourselves in front of people, but God knows your hearts, because what is highly valued by people is detestable to God."

1 Corinthians 10:33, “just as I try to please all men in everything I do, not seeking my own advantage, but that of many, that they may be saved.”

 

[FollowtheShepherd]

@FollowtheShepherd where is this trial st.paul was in you mentioned? i dont know anything about it

Here is a little info, the historical stuff comes from Ebonite writings and may or may not be accurate, however there is more than one instance in the word that is shown below that talks about this same type of thing and upon inspection it seems like the same incident to me.

Well as Peter said in the Ephesus trial of Paul recorded in history by an Ebionite writing, we can not comfirm or deny if Jesus appeared to him" Now no matter if that is even fully accurate or not, this does matter:

If people knew and applied the word it would help, one can not testify on their own behalf to SETTLE a case or prove a fact. 2 or more witnesses are needed.

John 5:31-32, “If I testify on my own behalf, my testimony is not trustworthy. There is another who testifies about me, and I know that the testimony he gives about me is true.”

Paul is the only one that calls himself an apostle/disciple, 2 Peter calls him a brother and is in line with what the Ebionite writings say about Paul's trial in Ephesusand he himself eludes to:

2 Timothy 4:14-17,14 Alexander the metalworker did me a great deal of harm. The Lord will pay him back for what he did."15 You, too, must watch out for him, for he violently opposed our message."16 At my first trial no one came to my defense. Everyone abandoned me. May it not be held against them!"17 However, the Lord stood by me and gave me strength so that through me the message might be fully proclaimed and all the gentiles could hear it. I was rescued out of a lion’s mouth."

2 Timothy 1:15-18,15 You know that everyone in Asia has abandoned me, including Phygelus and Hermogenes."16 May the Lord grant mercy to the family of Onesiphorus, for he often took care of me and was not ashamed that I was a prisoner."17 Instead, when he arrived in Rome he searched diligently for me and found me."18 May the Lord grant that he finds mercy on the day he comes again. You know very well how much he assisted me in Ephesus."

Interesting this Ephesus is in Asia.

Revelation 1:10-11, " 10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, 11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send [it] unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea."

"which are in Asia; unto Ephesus"

Acts 19:1,8-9, “1, It was while Apollos was in Corinth that Paul passed through the inland districts and came to Ephesus. He found a few disciples there 8, "He went into the synagogue and spoke there boldly for three months, holding discussions and persuading those who heard him about the kingdom of God. 9, "But when some people became stubborn, refused to believe, and slandered the Way in front of the people, Paul left them, taking his disciples away with him, and held daily discussions in the lecture hall of Tyrannus.”

"came to Ephesus...But when some people became stubborn, refused to believe, and slandered the Way in front of the people, Paul left them"

Revelation 2:1-3, " 1 “To the angel of the church in Ephesus write: ‘The words of him who holds the seven stars in his right hand, who walks among the seven golden lampstands. 2 “‘I know your works, your toil and your patient endurance, and how you cannot bear with those who are evil, but have tested those who call themselves apostles and are not, and found them to be false. 3 I know you are enduring patiently and bearing up for my name's sake, and you have not grown weary.

To me it is worth investigation when people are telling me Jesus words are no more and another speaks in Jesus place now.