Why didn't the apostles follow Jesus instruction when baptizing?

TheLearner · Oct 4, 2019

H. Jesus is the Son of God

1. "Son" in Scripture can mean simply one possessing the nature of something, whether literal or figurative (e.g. "Son of man," "sons of thunder," "sons of disobedience," cf. Mark 3:7; Eph. 2:1).

2. Usually when "son of" is used in relation to a person (son of man, son of Abraham, son of David, etc.) the son possesses the nature of his father.

3. Jesus is clearly not the literal Son of God, i.e., He was not physically procreated by God.

4. On the other hand, Jesus is clearly the Son of God in a unique sense (cf. "only-begotten son," John 1:14; 3:16, 18; 1 John 4:9) and in a preeminent sense (i.e. the term is more fitting for Him than for anyone else).

5. Scripture is explicit that the Son possesses God's essence or nature (cf. F. above).

6. Jesus' repeated claim to be the Son of God was consistently understood by the Jewish leaders as a blasphemous claim to equality with God, an understanding Jesus never denied: John 5:17-23; 8:58-59; 10:30-39; 19:7; Matt. 26:63-65.

7. Jesus is therefore by nature God's Son, not God's creation or God's servant; Jesus is God's Son who became a servant for our sake and for the Father's glory (John 13:13-15; 17:4; Phil. 2:6-11; Heb. 1:4-13; 3:1-6; 5:8; etc.).

I. Objections

1. Prov. 8:22: This text is not a literal description of Christ, but a poetic personification of wisdom (cf. all of Prov. 1-9, esp. 8:12-21; 9:1-6), poetically saying that God "got" His wisdom before He did anything - i.e., that God has always had wisdom.

2. Col. 1:15: Does not mean that Christ is the first creature, since He is here presented as the Son and principal heir of the Father (cf. vv. 12-44); thus "firstborn" here means "heir" (cf. Gen. 43:33; 48;14-20; Ex. 4:22; 1 Chron. 5:1-3; Psa. 89:27; Jer. 31:9); note that v. 16 speaks of the Son as the Creator, nor creature (cf. E.1. above).

3. Rev. 3:14: "Beginning" (archê) in Rev. as a title means source or one who begins, i.e. Creator (cf. Rev. 1:8; 21:6; 22:13); elsewhere Christ is called the archê in the sense of "ruler," Col. 1:18, cf. plural archai, "rulers," in Col. 1:16; 2:10, 15, also Luke 12:11; Rom. 8:38; Eph. 3:10; 6:12; Tit. 3:1; cf. Luke 20:20; Jude 6; 1 Cor. 15:24; Eph. 1:21.

4. 1 Cor. 11:3; 15:28: Jesus is still subordinate to God, but as the Son to the Father; i.e., they are equal in nature, but the Son is subordinate relationally to God.

5. John 20:17; Rom. 15:6; 1 Cor. 15:24; 2 Cor. 1:3; Rev. 1:6; 3:12: Jesus calls the Father "My God" because He is still man as well as God; note the distinction between "My God" and "your God" in John 20:17 (i.e., Jesus never speaks of "our God" including Himself with the disciples).

6. Mark 13:32: Jesus' statement that He did not know the time of His return is to be explained by His voluntary acceptance of the humble form and likeness of a man (Phil. 2:7); in fact Jesus, as God, did know all things (John 16:30), and after His resurrection He does not including Himself as not knowing (Acts 1:6-7).

7. Mark 10:17-18: Jesus does not deny being God, but simply tells the man that he has no business calling anyone "good" in an unqualified sense except God.

8. Heb. 5:14: Jesus was tempted, cf. James 1:13; but note that Jesus could not sin, John 5:19.

9. John 1:18: No one has seen God, but men have seen Jesus, e.g. 1 John 1:1-2; but note that no man can see the glorified Jesus either, 1 Tim. 6:16, and to see Jesus is to see the Father, John 14:9.

10. 1 Tim. 1:17: God cannot die, but Jesus did, e.g. Phil. 2:8; but note that no one could take Jesus' life from Him, He could not remain dead, and He raised Himself: John 10:18; Acts 2:24; John 2:19-22.

11. 1 Cor. 8:6: Father called God, Jesus called Lord: but here "God" and "Lord" are synonymous (cf. v. 5; cf. also Rom. 14:3-12 for a good example of "God" and "Lord" as interchangeable); moreover, this text no more denies that Jesus is God than it does that the Father is Lord (Matt. 11:25); cf. Jude 4, where Jesus is the only Lord.

12. 1 Tim. 2:5: Jesus here supposedly distinct from God; but Jesus is also distinct from (fallen) men, yet is Himself a man; likewise Jesus is distinct from God (the Father), but is also God.

13. Deut. 4:12, 15-25; God not appear in a human form to Israel, lest they fall into idolatry; but this does not rule out His appearing in human form later after they had learned to abhor idolatry.

14. In many texts Jesus is distinguished from God: He is the Son of God, was sent by God, etc.; in all these texts "God" is used as a name for the person most commonly called God, i.e., the Father.

TheLearner · Oct 4, 2019

VII. The Holy Spirit Is God

A. Equated with God: Acts 5:3-4; 2 Cor. 3:17-18

B. Has the incommunicable attributes of God

1. Eternal: Heb. 9:14

2. Omnipresent: Psa. 139:7

3. Omniscient: 1 Cor. 2:10-11

C. Involved in all the works of God

1. Creation: Gen. 1:2; Psa. 104:30

2. Incarnation: Matt. 1:18, 20; Luke 1:35

3. Resurrection: Rom. 1:4; 8:11

4. Salvation: Rom. 8:1-27

D. Is a person

1. Has a name: Matt. 28:19; note that even though "name" might be used of a nonperson, here, in conjunction with the Father and the Son, it must be used of a person

2. Is the "Helper"

a. Is another Helper: John 14:16, cf. 1 John 2:1; note also that "Helper" (paraklêtos) was used in Greek always or almost always of persons.

b. Is sent in Jesus' name, to teach: John 14:26.

c. Will arrive, and then bear witness: John 15:26-27.

d. Is sent by Christ to convict of sin, will speak not on his own but on behalf of Christ, will glorify Christ, thus exhibiting humility: John 16:7-14.

3. Is the Holy Spirit, in contrast to unholy spirits: Mark 3:22-30, cf. Matt. 12:32; 1 Tim. 4:1; 1 John 3:24-4:6.

4. Speaks, is quoted as speaking: John 16:13; Acts 1:16; 8:29; 10:19; 11:12; 13:2; 16:6; 20:23; 21:11: 28:25-27; 1 Tim. 4:1; Heb. 3:7-11; 10:15-17; 1 Pet. 1:11; Rev. 2:7, 11, 17, 29; 3:6, 13,22.

5. Can be lied to: Acts 5:3

6. Can make decisions, judgments: Acts 15:28

7. Intercedes for Christians with the Father: Rom. 8:26

8. "Impersonal" language used of the Spirit paralled by language used of other persons

a. The Holy Spirit as fire: Matt. 3:11; Luke 3:16; cf. Ex. 3:2-4; Deut. 4:24; 9:3; Heb. 12:29

b. The Holy Spirit poured out: Acts 2:17, 33; cf. Isa. 53:12; Phil. 2:17; 2 Tim. 4:6

c. Being filled with the Holy Spirit: Eph. 5:18, etc.; cf. Eph. 3:17, 19; 14:10

VIII. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit Are Distinct Persons

TheLearner · Oct 4, 2019

A. Matt. 28:19

1. "the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit": use of definite article before each personal noun indicates distinct persons unless explicitly stated otherwise; compare Rev. 1:17; 2:8, 26

2. The views that "Father" and "Son" are distinct persons but not the Holy Spirit, or that the Holy Spirit is not a person at all, or that all three are different offices or roles of one person, are impossible in view of the grammar (together with the fact that in Scripture a "spirit" is a person unless context shows otherwise).

3. Does singular "name" prove that the three are one person? No; cf. Gen. 5:2; 11:14; 48:6; and esp. 48:16

4. "Name" need not be personal name, may be title: Isa. 9:6; Matt. 1:23. If a single personal name is sought, the name shared by all three persons is "Yahweh" or "Jehovah."

B. Acts 2:38 and Matt. 28:19

1. Neither passage specifies that certain words are to be spoken during baptism; nor does the Bible ever record someone saying, "I baptize you in the name of...."

2. Those said to be baptized in the name of Jesus (whether or not the formula "in the name of Jesus" was used) were people already familiar with the God of the OT:

a. Jews: Acts 2:5, 38; 22:16

b. Samaritans: Acts 8:5, 12, 16

c. God-fearing Gentiles: Acts 10:1-2, 22, 48

d. Disciples of John the Baptist: Acts 19:1-5

e. The first Christians in Corinth were Jews and God-fearing Gentiles: Acts 18:1-8; 1 Cor. 1:13

3. Trinitarian formula for baptism (if that is what Matt. 28:19 is) was given in context of commissioning apostles to take the gospel to "all the nations," including people who did not know of the biblical God

C. God the Father and the Son Jesus Christ are two persons

1. The salutations: Rom. 1:7; 1 Cor. 1:3; 2 Cor. 1:2; Gal. 1:3; Eph. 1:2; 6:23; Phil. 1:2; 1 Thess. 1:1; 2 Thess. 1:1, 2; 1 Tim. 1:1, 2; 2 Tim. 1:2; Tit. 1:4; Phm. 3; James 1:1; 2 Pet. 1:2; 2 John 3

2. Two witnesses: John 5:31-32; 8:16-18; cf. Num. 35:30; Deut. 17:6; 19:15

3. The Father sent the Son: John 3:16-17; Gal. 4:4; 1 John 4:10; etc.; cf. John 1:6; 17:18; 20:21

4. The Father and the Son love each other: John 3:35; 5:20; 14:31; 15:9; 17-23-26; cf. Matt. 3:17 par.; 17:5 par.; 2 Pet. 1:17

5. The Father speaks to the Son, and the Son speaks to the Father: John 11:41-42; 12:28; 17:1-26; etc.

6. The Father knows the Son, and the Son knows the Father: Matt. 11:27; Luke 10:22; John 7:29; 8:55; 10:15

7. Jesus our Advocate with the Father: 1 John 2:1

TheLearner · Oct 4, 2019

D. Jesus is not God the Father

1. Isa. 9:6: "Father of eternity" means eternal; compare other names formed with word "father": Abialbon, "father of strength" = strong (2 Sam. 23:31); Abiasaph, "father of gathering" = gatherer (Ex. 6:24); Abigail, a woman's name(!), "father of exultation" = exulting (1 Chron. 2:16).

2. John 10:30

a. Jesus did not say, "I am the Father," nor did He say, "the Son and the Father are one person."

b. The first person plural esmen ("we are") implies two persons.

c. The neuter word for "one" (hen) is used, implying essential unity but not personal unity (compare John 17:21-23).

3. John 5:43: Jesus' coming in His Father's name means not that He was the Father because He had the Father's name, but that, while others come in their own name (or their own authority), Jesus does not; He comes in His Father's name (on His Father's authority).

4. John 8:19; 16:3: Ignorance of Jesus is indeed ignorance of the Father, but that does not prove that Jesus is the one He calls "My Father."

5. John 14:6-11

a. Jesus and the Father are one being, not one person.

b. Jesus said, "I am in the Father," not "I am the Father."

c. The statement, "the Father is in Me," does not mean Jesus is the Father; compare John 14:20; 17:21-23.

6. John 14:18: An older adult brother can care for his younger siblings, thus preventing them from being "orphans," without being their father.

7. Colossians 2:9: Does not mean that Jesus is the Father, or that Jesus is an incarnation of the Father; rather, since "Godhead" (theotês) means Deity, the state of being God, the nature of God, Jesus is fully God, but not the only person who is God. "The Godhead" here does not = the Father (note that Jesus is in the Father, John 10:38; 14:10, 11; 17:21), but the nature of the Father.

8. The Father and the Son are both involved in various activities: raising Jesus (Gal. 1:1; John 2:19-22), raising the dead (John 5:21); 6:39-40, 44, 54, 1 Cor. 6:14), answering prayer (John 14:13-14; 15:16; 16:23), sending the Holy Spirit (John 14:16; 15:26; 16:7), drawing people to Jesus (John 6:44; 12:32), etc. These common works do prove that the two persons are both God, but not that Jesus is the Father

E. The Son existed before his Incarnation, even before creation

1. Prov. 30:4: This is not predictive prophecy; "prophecy" in 30:1 translates massa, which is rendered elsewhere as "burden."

2. The Son created all things: See VI.E.1

3. Jesus was "with" (pros or para) God the Father before creation: John 1:1; 17:5; pros in John 1:1 does not mean "pertaining to," although it does in Hebrews 2:17; 5:1 (which use pros with ta).

4. Jesus, the Son of God, existed before John the Baptist (who was born before Jesus): John 1:15, cf. 1:14-18, 29-34

5. Jesus, the Son, came down from heaven, sent from the Father, and went back to heaven, back to the Father: John 3:13, 31; 6:33; 38, 41, 46, 51, 56-58, 62; 8:23, 42; 13:3; 16:27-28; cf. Acts 1:10-11; cf. the sending of the Holy Spirit, John 16:5-7; 1 Pet. 1:12

6. Jesus, speaking as the Son (John 8:54-56), asserts His eternal preexistence before Abraham: John 8:58

7. The Son explicitly said to exist "before all things": Col. 1:17, cf. 1:12-20

8. These statements cannot be dismissed as true only in God's foreknowledge

a. We are all "in God's mind" before creation; yet such passages as John 1:1 and John 17:5 clearly mean to say something unusual about Christ.

b. To say that all things were created through Christ means that He must have existed at creation.

c. No one else in Scripture is ever said to have been with God before creation.

9. Texts which speak of the Son being begotten "today" do not mean He became the Son on a certain day, since they refer to His exaltation at the resurrection (Acts 13:33; Heb. 1:3-5; 5:5; cf. Psa. 2:7; cf. also Rom. 1:4).

F. Jesus is not the Holy Spirit

1. The Holy Spirit is "another Comforter": John 14:16; compare 1 John 2:1.

2. Jesus sent the Holy Spirit: John 15:26; 16:7.

3. The Holy Spirit exhibits humility in relation to, and seeks to glorify, Jesus (John 16:13-14).

4. The Son and the Holy Spirit are distinguished as two persons in Matt. 28:19.

5. The Holy Spirit descended upon Jesus: Luke 3:22.

6. Is Jesus the Holy Spirit?

a. 2 Cor. 3:17: the Spirit is here called "Lord" in the sense of being Yahweh or God, not Jesus (cf. v. 16, citing Ex. 34:34; cf. v. 17 in the Revised English Bible); note Acts 28:25-27, cf. Isa. 6:8-10.

b. 1 Cor. 15:45: Jesus is "a life-giving Spirit," not in the sense that He is the Holy Spirit whom He sent at Pentecost, but in the sense that He is the glorified God-man; and as God He is Spirit by nature. All three persons of the Trinity are Spirit, though there are not three divine Spirits; and only one person is designated "the Holy Spirit."

c. Rom. 8:27, 34: the fact that two persons intercede for us is consistent with the fact that we have two Advocates (John 14:16; Rom. 8:26; 1 John 2:1).

d. John 14:18: Jesus here refers to His appearances to the disciples after the resurrection (compare 14:19), not to the coming of the Spirit.

e. Jesus and the Holy Spirit are both involved in various activities: raising Jesus (John 2:19-19-22); Rom. 8:9-11), raising the dead (John 5:21; 6:39-40, 44, 54, Rom. 8:9-11), dwelling in the believer (John 14:16; 2 Cor. 13:5; Col. 1:27), interceding for the believer (Rom. 8:26; Heb. 7:25), sanctifying believers (Eph. 5:26; 1 Pet. 1:2), etc. These works prove that the two persons are both God, but not that Jesus is the Holy Spirit.

G. The Father is not the Holy Spirit

1. The Father sent the Holy Spirit: John 14:15; 15:26.

2. The Holy Spirit intercedes with the Father for us: Rom. 8:26-27.

3. The Father and the Holy Spirit are distinguished as two persons in Matt. 28:19.

4. Is the Father the Holy Spirit?

a. Matt. 1:18; Luke 1:35: It is argued that the Holy Spirit is the Father of the incarnate Son of God; this argument ignores the fact that the "conception" is not a product of physical union between a man and a woman!

b. The Father and the Holy Spirit are both said to be active in various activities; the resurrection of Jesus (Gal. 1:1; Rom. 8:11), comforting Christians (2 Cor. 1:3-4; John 14:26), sanctifying Christians (Jude 1; 1 Pet. 1:2), etc. The most these facts prove is that the two work together; they do not prove the two are one person.

IX. Conclusion: The Bible teaches the Trinity

A. All the elements of the doctrine are taught in Scripture.

1. One God

2. The Father is God.

3. The Son is God.

4. The Holy Spirit is God.

5. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three persons (i.e., they are not each other, nor are they impersonal; they relate to one another personally).

B. The New Testament presents a consistent triad of Father, Son, Holy Spirit (God, Christ, Spirit): Matt. 28:19; 2 Cor. 13:34; also Luke 1:35; 3:21-22 par.; 4:1-12; John 4:10-25; 7:37-39; 14-16; 20:21-22; Acts 1:4-8; 2:33, 38-39; 5:3-4, 9, 30-32; 7:55-56; 10:36-38, 44-48; 11:15-18; 15:8-11; 20:38; 28:25-31; Rom. 1:1-4; 5:5-10; 8:2-4, 9-11, 14-17; 1 Cor. 6:11; 12:4-6, 11-12, 18; 2 Cor. 1:19-22; 3:6-8, 14-18; Gal. 3:8-14; 4:4-7; Eph. 1:3-17; 2:18, 21-22; 3:14-19; 4:4-6, 29-32; 5:18-20; Phil. 3:3; 1 Thess. 1:3-6; 2 Thess. 2:13-14; Tit. 3:4-6; Heb. 2:3-4; 9:14; 10:28-31; 1 Pet. 1:2; 1 John 3:21-24; 4:13-14; Jude 20-21; Rev. 2:18, 27-29.

C. Therefore, the Bible does teach the Trinity.

X. What Difference Does the Doctrine of the Trinity Make?

A. Sovereignty: Because the three persons have each other, we can be assured that God created us only to share the love they have and not as a means to His own end: Acts 17:25; John 17:21-26.

B. Mystery: The triune God is totally unlike anything in our world, and therefore greater than anything we can comprehend: Rom. 11:33-36; Isa. 40:18.

C. Salvation: God alone planned our salvation, came to save us, and dwells in us to complete our salvation: 1 Pet. 1:2; Eph. 1:3-18; etc.

D. Prayer: We pray to the Father through the Son, and also pray to the Son directly, in the Spirit: John 14:13-14; Eph. 2:18; etc.

E. Worship: We worship Father and Son in the Spirit: John 4:23-24; Phil. 3:3; Heb. 1:8; etc.

F. Love: The love among the three persons is the basis and model for our love for one another: John 17:26.

G. Unity: The unity of the three persons is the basis and model for the unity of the church: John 17:21-23.

H. Humility: As the persons of the Trinity seek the glory of each other, so we should seek the interests of others above our own: Phil. 2:5-11; John 16:13-14.

I. Sonship: We are "sons of God" as we are united with the Son of God by the work of the Holy Spirit and the adoption of the Father: John 1:12-23; Rom. 8:14-17.

J. Truth: All those who wish to worship and love God must seek to know Him as He is in truth, for God, as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, is truth: John 4:24; 14:6, 17; 15:26; 16:13. http://www.forananswer.org/Top_General/Bowman_biblical_basis_of_the_trinity.htm

RevelationMan · Oct 4, 2019

Dino246 said:

I'm open to other (maybe more consistent) explanations but I am convinced that there were two. One maybe more powerful but two is better as Eccl 4:9-10 says

Two are better than one,
because they have a good return for their labor:
If either of them falls down,
one can help the other up.
But pity anyone who falls
and has no one to help them up.

and Mark 14:62

“And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.”

TheLearner · Oct 4, 2019

Whispered said:

Zechariah 14 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)
The Day of Judgment
14 Look, the Lord has a special day of judgment coming, when the riches you have taken will be divided in your city. 2 I will bring all the nations together to fight against Jerusalem. They will capture the city and destroy the houses. The women will be raped, and half of the people will be taken away as prisoners. But the rest of the people will not be taken from the city. 3 Then the Lord will go to war with those nations. It will be a real battle. 4 At that time he will stand on the Mount of Olives, the hill east of Jerusalem. The Mount of Olives will split in half. Part of the mountain will move to the north, and part to the south. A deep valley will open up, from the east to the west. 5 You will try to run away as that mountain valley comes closer and closer to you. You will run away like the time you ran from the earthquake during the time of King Uzziah of Judah. But the Lord my God will come, and all his holy ones[a] will be with him.

6-7 That will be a very special day. There will not be any light, cold, or frost. Only the Lord knows how, but there will not be any day or night. Then, when darkness usually comes, there will still be light. 8 At that time water will flow continually from Jerusalem. That stream will split and part of it will flow east, and part of it will flow west to the Mediterranean Sea. And it will flow all year long, in the summer as well as in the winter. 9 And the Lord will be the King of the whole world. At that time all people will worship him as the only Lord with only one name. 10 And the whole land from Geba in the north to Rimmon in the south past Jerusalem will become a flat plain. The city of Jerusalem will stay in the same place, but it will be built high above the land around it. It will reach from the Benjamin Gate to the First Gate (that is, the Corner Gate) and from the Tower of Hananel to the king’s winepresses. 11 People will move to Jerusalem because it will be a safe place to live. It will never again be destroyed.

12 But the Lord will punish the nations that fought against Jerusalem. He will send a terrible disease against them. Their skin will begin to rot while the people are still alive. Their eyes will rot in their sockets, and their tongues will rot in their mouths. 13-15 That terrible disease will be in the enemy camp, and all their horses, mules, camels, and donkeys will catch that terrible disease.

At that time they will be afraid of the Lord. Each man will grab his neighbor’s hand, and they will fight each other. Even Judah will fight against Jerusalem. This will happen even while armies from all the nations are surrounding the city. There will be much gold, silver, and clothing. 16 Some of the people who came to fight Jerusalem will survive. And every year they will come to worship the king, the Lord All-Powerful. They will come to celebrate the Festival of Shelters. 17 And if people from any of the families on earth don’t go to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord All-Powerful, no rain will fall on their land. 18 If any of the families in Egypt don’t come to celebrate the Festival of Shelters, they will get that terrible disease that the Lord caused the enemy nations to get. 19 That will be the punishment for Egypt, and for any other nation that does not come to celebrate the Festival of Shelters.

20 At that time even the harnesses on the horses will have the label, holy to the lord.[c] And all the pots used in the Lord’s Temple will be just as important as the bowls used at the altar. 21 In fact, every dish in Jerusalem and Judah will have the label, holy to the lord all-powerful. All the people offering sacrifices will come, take those dishes, and cook their special meals in them.

I looked at your proof text in the Hebrew, Lord nor God is used as a verb.

At that time there will not be any merchants buying and selling things[d] in the Temple of the Lord All-Powerful.

TheLearner · Oct 4, 2019

read to here

Dino246 · Oct 4, 2019

RevelationMan said:

Ecclesiastes 4:9-10 is not a doctrinal statement about the nature of Jesus. Applying it as such is simply bad hermeneutics.

Mark 14:62 talks about the Son and the Father respectively, not two "Jesuses".

Dino246 · Oct 4, 2019

TheLearner said:

Did you know that if you click on the title of a thread you have been reading, it will take you directly to the oldest post after your last visit? There is no need to enter these personal bookmarks. Frankly, it's selfish.

Whispered · Oct 4, 2019

TheLearner said:

God - https://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionary/god/
"God of Israel's National Events. The Exodus. Perhaps the single most important era for the shaping of Israel's God-concept, despite the opinions of the historical critics, was the Mosaic era, and no text is more important in this regard than Exodus 3:14, where God identifies himself to Moses as I am who I am. This text stands alongside Genesis 1:27 in theological importance. Its complementary text is Exodus 6:2-9. Numerous explanations have been offered for this enigmatic statement. The key word is the verb "to be" (haya [h"y'h]), occurring here in the imperfect form (lit. I will be who I will be), but the Hebrew imperfect verb can bear both the future and the present senses ("I am who I am"). The shortened form of the name occurs at the end of the sentence, "I am has sent me to you." And Exodus 3:15 equates I am with the God of the fathers: "The Lord the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob has sent me to you."

///

Dictionaries - Smith's Bible Dictionary - God
God [N] [T] [E]
(good ). Throughout the Hebrew Scriptures two chief names are used for the one true divine Being--ELOHIM, commonly translated God in our version, and JEHOVAH, translated Lord . Elohim is the plural of Eloah (in Arabic Allah ); it is often used in the short form EL (a word signifying strength , as in EL-SHADDAI, God Almighty, the name by which God was specially known to the patriarchs. ( Genesis 17:1 ; 28:3 ; Exodus 6:3 ) The etymology is uncertain, but it is generally agreed that the primary idea is that of strength, power of effect , and that it properly describes God in that character in which he is exhibited to all men in his works, as the creator, sustainer and supreme governor of the world. The plural form of Elohim has given rise to much discussion. The fanciful idea that it referred to the trinity of persons in the Godhead hardly finds now a supporter among scholars. It is either what grammarians call the plural of majesty , or it denotes the fullness of divine strength, the sum of the powers displayed by God. Jehovah denotes specifically the one true God, whose people the Jews were, and who made them the guardians of his truth. The name is never applied to a false god, nor to any other being except one, the ANGEL-JEHOVAH who is thereby marked as one with God, and who appears again in the New Covenant as "God manifested in the flesh." Thus much is clear; but all else is beset with difficulties. At a time too early to be traced, the Jews abstained from pronouncing the name, for fear of its irreverent use. The custom is said to have been founded on a strained interpretation of ( Leviticus 24:16 ) and the phrase there used, "THE NAME" (Shema ), is substituted by the rabbis for the unutterable word. In reading the Scriptures they substituted for it the word ADONAI (Lord ), from the translation of which by Kurios in the LXX., followed by the Vulgate, which uses Dominus , we have the LORD of our version. The substitution of the word Lord is most unhappy, for it in no way represents the meaning of the sacred name. The key to the meaning of the name is unquestionably given in Gods revelation of himself to Moses by the phrase "I AM THAT I AM," ( Exodus 3:14 ; 6:3 ) We must connect the name Jehovah with the Hebrew substantive verb to be , with the inference that it expresses the essential, eternal, unchangeable being of Jehovah. But more, it is not the expression only, or chiefly, of an absolute truth: it is a practical revelation of God, in his essential, unchangeable relation to this chosen people, the basis of his covenant.

Whispered · Oct 4, 2019

Proof Texting Definition

Many times when someone discusses what the Bible teaches what they may use, even though they may be unaware of it, what is called Proof Text. Proof texting uses certain short passages, many times only a single verse, pulled from the Bible in support of a particular belief or doctrine.

The problem with this method is that the person who is Proof texting usually gives their selected verses a meaning that may be entirely different from what the writer intended. The Bible is written in such a way that most verses cannot be correctly understood in a stand-alone fashion. The context of a particular verse, who wrote it, the time period in which it was written, where did they write it, etc. is needed to arrive at what God intended it to convey.

Proof texting can easily lead to wrong conclusions regarding what is the truth of God. An argument or doctrinal stand that relies heavily on proof passages is ultimately considered weak. In fact, those who preach and teach others based on such special passages in Scripture are generally viewed negatively by true Biblical scholars and those who seriously study the word of God.

Whispered · Oct 4, 2019

Melach said:

I believe what God tells me of Himself. No denominational affiliation required. Just God taken at His word.

The Book of Isaiah chapter 44 verse 6
Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts: “I am the first and I am the last; besides me there is no god.

https://www.openbible.info/topics/one_god

TheLearner · Oct 4, 2019

Dino246 said:

I have memory problems and clicking the title does not do that for me

Whispered · Oct 4, 2019

RevelationMan said:

That verse does not refer to God being better as two rather than one.
Ecclesiastes
Theme
This wisdom teacher reveals what he has discovered about the meaninglessness of every human endeavor without God at the center of one's life.
Overview
If the deep and perplexing issues of life intrigue you, you’ll appreciate Ecclesiastes. The NIV Quest Study Bible says this book shows how a life not centered on God is purposeless and meaningless. Ecclesiastes has lots of surprising elements you wouldn’t expect to find in the Bible: honest confessions of doubts, struggles with faith, and disillusionment. The prologue (1:1–11) and an epilogue (12:9–14) frame the book’s contents to reveal a proper, God-fearing attitude toward life. Watch out for isolated statements; they must be understood within the context of the whole book and, ultimately, the context of the whole Bible. The author ends with the conclusion of the matter: fear God and keep his commandments, for this is the duty of all mankind.

Grouping
Writings (Hebrew); Poetic (Protestant); Wisdom (Catholic); Poetic and Didactic (Orthodox)

Author
Unknown; possibly King Solomon.

https://beta.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=ecclesiastes+4&version=ASV;KJV

You're implying the pagan polytheism factor into what has ever been a monotheist construct.
Mark 14 does not apply to the nature of God.
[/QUOTE]
There is the visual reference used just as the royal plural words are often used in Genesis. "Let Us make him in Our image and likeness..."

The same with the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One.
In Hebrew culture the right hand was symbolic. It is the hand of power and authority. It does not mean, that verse in the Book of Mark, that there was seated God and to His right, Jesus.
We know this because prior to Jesus being begat upon Mary the angel of our Lord told her she would name the child, Emmanuel, meaning God with us.

When Jesus was God, that verse in Mark cannot then state that God sat to His own right.

Whispered · Oct 4, 2019

Dino246 said:

With all respect, in my experience I find it does not help to attempt to educate someone who appears ignorant, unaware, of something hoping they will then learn what they appear not to know, while adding a belittling judgmental sarcasm as a personal attack that also means to condemn said ignorance and the individual perceived to be ignorant.

Melach · Oct 4, 2019

Whispered said:

i believe in one God as well

but do you believe Son and Father are the same?

Dino246 · Oct 4, 2019

Whispered said:

With all respect, in my experience I find it does not help to attempt to educate someone who appears ignorant, unaware, of something hoping they will then learn what they appear not to know, while adding a belittling judgmental sarcasm as a personal attack that also means to condemn said ignorance and the individual perceived to be ignorant.

Fair point.

Whispered · Oct 4, 2019

Melach said:

As I said, I believe what God the Father says in His word. Jesus was the Father.
The Book of Deuteronomy chapter 6 verse 4
“Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one."

The Book of Mark chapter 12
28 And one of the scribes came, and heard them questioning together, and knowing that he had answered them well, asked him, What commandment is the first of all? 29 Jesus answered, The first is, [g]Hear, O Israel; [h]The Lord our God, the Lord is one: 30 and thou shalt love the Lord thy God [i]with all thy heart, and [j]with all thy soul, and [k]with all thy mind, and [l]with all thy strength.
Footnotes
[g]Mark 12:29 Dt. 6:4ff.
[h]Mark 12:29 Or, The Lord is our God; the Lord is one
Mark 12:30 Greek from.
[j]Mark 12:30 Greek from.
[k]Mark 12:30 Greek from.

The Book of Matthew 1
The Birth of Jesus
…22All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet: 23“Behold, the virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call Him Immanuel” (which means, “God with us”). 24When Joseph woke up, he did as the angel of the Lord had commanded him, and embraced Mary as his wife.…
Berean Study Bible

Melach · Oct 4, 2019

Whispered said:

As I said, I believe what God the Father says in His word. Jesus was the Father.
The Book of Deuteronomy chapter 6 verse 4
“Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one."

The Book of Mark chapter 12
28 And one of the scribes came, and heard them questioning together, and knowing that he had answered them well, asked him, What commandment is the first of all? 29 Jesus answered, The first is, [g]Hear, O Israel; [h]The Lord our God, the Lord is one: 30 and thou shalt love the Lord thy God [i]with all thy heart, and [j]with all thy soul, and [k]with all thy mind, and [l]with all thy strength.
Footnotes
[g]Mark 12:29 Dt. 6:4ff.
[h]Mark 12:29 Or, The Lord is our God; the Lord is one
Mark 12:30 Greek from.
[j]Mark 12:30 Greek from.
[k]Mark 12:30 Greek from.

The Book of Matthew 1
The Birth of Jesus
…22All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet: 23“Behold, the virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call Him Immanuel” (which means, “God with us”). 24When Joseph woke up, he did as the angel of the Lord had commanded him, and embraced Mary as his wife.…
Berean Study Bible

so oneness it is. Jesus is the Father and Son at the same time thats confusion. Jesus talked to Himself when praying to Himself?

Whispered · Oct 4, 2019

Melach said:

No, "oneness" as you previously described it, is not it.
To whom was the Father speaking in the Book of Genesis chapter 1 verse 26?

Why didn't the apostles follow Jesus instruction when baptizing?

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