nephilim
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Does the fact that the men of Sodom called the two visitors "men" declare absolutely that they were not angels? No, it doesn't. Hebrews 13:2 would be meaningless if humans can easily tell the difference.
If you stuck with what the Scripture actually says, you'd be less confused.
In agreement. We can only go by Scripture and Scripture tells us that something went on with angels who did not keep their first estate. I do not have to know in detail what occurred when they left their "first estate".
Nor do I need to understand the genetic make-up of the nephilim (or rephaim, for that matter) to understand that there was much more going on than a believer marrying an unbeliever and having tall children. If that were the case, why are there no believing children who were tall? Or any other believers besides Noah and his family?
Suffice it to say that if we are speaking of believers being unequally yoked with unbelievers (as some have posited), why are all the offspring corrupt, evil? Generally, when a believer marries an unbeliever, some of the kids end up believing. But in the days of Noah, only Noah was perfect in his generations (genetically uncorrupted ... not "perfect" as in without sin). And the nephilim were so corrupt that God had to utterly destroy them. There was much more going on than nephilim merely being unbelieving, natural men who were tall.
The angels in chains WERE going after strange flesh. That's the whole point.
Here is what you submitted in Post #107:
Gen 6:4 indicates that it is the nĕphiyl who were referred to as men of renown. As only Noah and his family were saved through the flood, it is wholly apparent that all the nĕphiyl were utterly destroyed.
Genesis 6:4 There were giants [Heb nĕphiyl] in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same [the nĕphiyl] became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.
The nĕphiyl were not "like those of David". David was a man after God's own heart (1 Sam 13:13, Acts 13:22). The nephilim were utterly destroyed because they were wicked, evil.
garee said:
Then why did God destroy the nephilim? All of the nĕphiyl were destroyed at the time of the flood. If these men of renown were "like David" and if they were not "seed of evildoers" why did God utterly destroy them? Only Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord (Gen 6:8) and only Noah and his family were saved.
I can visualize fallen angels (demons) possessing humans and causing and experiencing sexual acts through the humans. As far as procreating a new being part spirit and part human, no. It just does not jive with me.
Jude 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
Have you ever looked at the word "strange" in the Greek? It is the Greek word héteros. From HELPS Word studies ...
2087 héteros – another (of a different kind). 2087 /héteros ("another but distinct in kind") stands in contrast to 243 /állos ("another of the same kind").
Here is how Thayer's defines "strange" as used in Jude 1:7 ...
the other; another, other; (from Homer on); the Sept. chiefly for אַחֵר. It refers:
2. to quality; another i. e. one not of the same nature, form, class, kind; different
Sounds like a whole lot of sign seeking. . . show me a form then I will beleive..(No faith) An evil generation needs to trust in the things seen
Yes there is a couple word for angels that are not seen. Sons of God as spirits of truth (no form) .
Just as for messenger that are seen also sons of God led by the spirits of truth, as it is written.
Just as Satan (not a shift changer) as lying spirit caused the deception in the garden taking on the form of a creature .
In a similar the Spirit of Christ worked in Balaam's Ass to prophecy. Prophets bring his message called angels . The angel of the Lord not seen was used just as in the Garden. Protecting the integrity of the message with the sword of the Spirit.
Numbers 22:23 And the ass saw the angel of the Lord standing in the way, and his sword drawn in his hand: and the ass turned aside out of the way, and went into the field: and Balaam smote the ass, to turn her into the way.
Balaam could not turn the spirit of message (spirit of faith not seen) into a lie.
Paul was sent as a messenger or angel of God to the Bereans .They heard the message and were moved by the spirit of truth the spirit of the message to search it out through the Spirit of truth, God's word . Not in respect to the messenger seen , or one not seen .
In both cases we walk by faith ,the unseen eternal
Not after some Charismatic idea as a sign gift. I saw a angel now, I believe in the messengers messages.
The messenger being entertained is a human messenger in Hebrew . Like the Son of man Jesus the main messenger angel .
The father spoke through him in the last days. Putting his word in the mouth of Jesus like he did with Balaam's Ass. God is not served by human hands.
They as prophets bring prophecy called or apostles.(sent ones)
Believers are messengers sent out with the gospel. Be careful who you sit down with and discuss the spiritual matters /God could be sending that person as a messenger or angel . You might bring a message or they to you . Iron sharpens iron in the way .
Sparks can fly.
He sends those kind of angels out two by two. . the great commission.
Yes there is a couple word for angels that are not seen. Sons of God as spirits of truth (no form) .
Just as for messenger that are seen also sons of God led by the spirits of truth, as it is written.
Just as Satan (not a shift changer) as lying spirit caused the deception in the garden taking on the form of a creature .
In a similar the Spirit of Christ worked in Balaam's Ass to prophecy. Prophets bring his message called angels . The angel of the Lord not seen was used just as in the Garden. Protecting the integrity of the message with the sword of the Spirit.
Numbers 22:23 And the ass saw the angel of the Lord standing in the way, and his sword drawn in his hand: and the ass turned aside out of the way, and went into the field: and Balaam smote the ass, to turn her into the way.
Balaam could not turn the spirit of message (spirit of faith not seen) into a lie.
Paul was sent as a messenger or angel of God to the Bereans .They heard the message and were moved by the spirit of truth the spirit of the message to search it out through the Spirit of truth, God's word . Not in respect to the messenger seen , or one not seen .
In both cases we walk by faith ,the unseen eternal
Not after some Charismatic idea as a sign gift. I saw a angel now, I believe in the messengers messages.
The messenger being entertained is a human messenger in Hebrew . Like the Son of man Jesus the main messenger angel .
The father spoke through him in the last days. Putting his word in the mouth of Jesus like he did with Balaam's Ass. God is not served by human hands.
They as prophets bring prophecy called or apostles.(sent ones)
Believers are messengers sent out with the gospel. Be careful who you sit down with and discuss the spiritual matters /God could be sending that person as a messenger or angel . You might bring a message or they to you . Iron sharpens iron in the way .
Sparks can fly.
He sends those kind of angels out two by two. . the great commission.
You're off in la-la land. This discussion has nothing to do with signs or spiritual gifts.
The Bible talks of angels being seen in many places. Your assertion that they have no form is simply wrong.
You claim that Satan is not a shape-shifter, and in the same sentence, state that he took on the form of a creature. You directly contradicted yourself.
Yes it also talks about seeing God who is not a man as a theophany
Sign seeker have everything to do with it. I saw a non human Angel.
Signs as wonders for those who rebel. Prophecy the tongue of God for those who believe.
He put his lying thoughts into a form the serpent . no shift changers …..Hollywood drama the gift of seeing thing not there.
Seen as visions not actual flesh and blood. (Picture shows without the reruns) 'Like the negative in Mathew 4. when the father in heaven not seen put words in the mouth of the Son as it is written, as it is written three time the once source of Christ faith . .Struck him out back to the bottomless dugout
I would say if a person desires to worship angels seen the sky is the limit. Will you ignore the warning?
Colossians 2:16-18 King James Version (KJV). Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,
Interesting that Jude 1:7 did not use the Greek word allos ("another of the same kind") in describing the strange flesh.
If what went on in Sodom and Gomorrah was homosexual behavior, the Greek word would be allos ("another of the same kind") because you would be talking about men with men working that which is unseemly.
But Jude 1:7 uses the Greek word heteros ("another of a different kind") ... not the same flesh.
Think about it ...
I'm confused as to why what you can visualize, or what jives with you has any bearing on what Scripture says.
The disconnect seems to be that you have a fixed thought that Angels are, and can only be, Spiritual beings. Like ghosts apparently.
This is an idea learned early in life, and therefore is hard to abandon. I get that. But the Bible has a number of instances where Angels appear as humans.
Angels appeared with Abraham and ate with him. In fact, YOU may have entertained Angels unaware:
Hebrews 13:2 King James Version (KJV)
2 Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares.
It is precisely BECAUSE the fallen angels went a step further, OUTSIDE of what was permitted by God, and abandoned their Heavenly bodies(oiketerion), and mated with human women, that they are in chains, in Tartarus, RIGHT NOW.
It doesn't really matter if we can't visualize, or it just doesn't seem right to us. That's what Scripture says. We can believe it or not.
You also have a MAJOR problem with the myriad of giants in Scripture. Humans with humans do not produce 10 to perhaps as much as 30 ft tall beings. The most famous, Goliath, was 10 to 12ft. Do a study on giants. You'd be surprised how prevalent they are.
PennEd, I know what scripture says. It is just I do not agree with you on what you think it says. You have your own opinions, I have mine. I am fine with that. I see your version defining a weak Heavenly Father that can't keep His creation from getting out of hand.
I see no evidence of 30 foot giants unless your bring in non-canonical books to assert your claim. I disqualify them on the errors they contain. I don't see Jude quoting from the book of Enoch. I believe, as a Jew, he was quoting oral history.
Whether your "version" is correct or PennEd's "version" is correct, the fact remains that what is written in Gen 6 did occur:
Genesis 6:
5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.
And what is written concerning the flood also occurred. Only Noah and his family were spared judgment through the faith of Noah (Heb 11:7).
So you have (according to you) "a weak Heavenly Father that can't keep His creation from getting out of hand" whether you believe your "version" or PennEd's "version".
And for the record, I do not believe we have "a weak Heavenly Father that can't keep His creation from getting out of hand".
Well that's just it. There is a difference between opinion and fact, or what we THINK Scripture says.
There is NO ambiguity that it says they left their Heavenly body, and committed a sexual sin with strange flesh. That is THE reason they are in chains in Tartarus. That's what the text says. Not me.
As for giants, they are all over Scripture:
Goliath Isn’t the Only Giant in the Bible. Here’s Where They Came From.
Michael S. Heiser | Tue, July 18, 2017 | Articles
If they haven’t read it, most people have at least heard the story of David and Goliath of Gath (“the Gittite”). The names of the hero and villain have iconic status. But how many people know anything about the giant Goliath, other than that he lost his head to a boy named David from Israel?
Second Samuel 21:15–22 and 1 Chronicles 20:4–8 tell us that there were other unusually tall warriors among the Philistines. The lists are not identical, but putting them together we read that there were four: Saph (also called Sippai), Lahmi, Ishbibenob, and an unnamed warrior. The descriptions are similar to that given to Goliath, noting “great stature” and the dimensions of their weaponry. Unlike Goliath or any of the other named warriors, the unnamed giant is said to have six fingers on each hand and six toes on each foot. This malformation, known as polydactylism, is only mentioned in the description of this giant. The Bible does not mention it when it discusses other giant clans.
Wait a minute—giant clans?
There are several people groups described as giants or among whom giants lived in the Old Testament:
- There are the Anakim, who are descendants from the Nephilim mentioned in Genesis 6:1–4 (compare Num 13:33), and whom the people of Israel encountered under Moses, and later under Joshua (Num 13:22–33; Josh 15:13–14).
- At one time, before the children of Israel traveled through the Transjordan, the land to the east of the Jordan River was heavily populated with tall people known as Emim (Deut 2:10–11) and the Zamzummim, also called the Zuzim (Deut 2:20).
- The Amorites, another group that stood in the way of Israel claiming the Promised Land, are described as being exceptionally tall (Amos 2:9–10).
- Lastly, there were the Rephaim, which are mentioned nearly 20 times, most often in association with the conquest of the promised land, when Moses encountered King Og of Bashan, whose bed measured to 13 feet in length (Deut 2:11, 20–22; 3:11–13; Josh 12:4; 13:13).
Some of the Rephaim giants survived the wars of Moses and Joshua, and their descendants settled in the Philistine city of Gath. The other warriors who accompanied Goliath may not have been brothers, but they were all part of an enduring and unusual lineage that challenged Israel for their land and opposed their God.
Not only that, but if God didn't allow His Creation to "get out of Hand" then we wouldn't have fallen in the 1st place!
LOL Your reality Hollywood style or the reality that the seed of Christ was passed on through Noah . The reason for the flood.
I differ with you on this also. God knew all along what would and will happen. Everything is going according to plan.
I acquiesced angels experiencing sex through possession of humans. I also agreed there were many giants, just none 30 ft. tall.
As far as Genesis 6 goes, our argument is what does nephil describes. Scripture is not clear where the giants originated.
Gen. 6:4 "There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown."
giants = H5303
נְפִל נְפִיל
nephı̂yl nephil
nef-eel', nef-eel'
From H5307; properly, a feller, that is, a bully or tyrant: - giant.
I don't see any angels here. Only traditions of men, saying so.