Not By Works

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G

Grandpa

Senior Member
#109,781
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
3,190
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#109,781
Macabeus said:
Let me give you a full answer on this.

1. God does not cause anyone to resist His grace. We do a good enough job of that. Although, there is a thing called judicial hardening

2. Gods grace gets all the credit in our salvation. Including the fact we did not resist.

3. Yes, lack of faith is what causes some to resist. The fact that faith is itself a gift does not rule this out. A gift may be rejected

4. Faith alone is not what causes us to not resist. I think faith and repentance are the two ingredients that incline our hearts to receive God’s gifts of grace. It is written, Repent and believe the Gospel

5. Without repentance, we don’t feel we have a need for Gods grace

6. Repentance is also granted to us by God. God gets all the Glory in our repentance too
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So a person AT LEAST needs to believe that God is and is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

Otherwise they reject Grace.

And you have said God doesn't cause anyone to reject Grace.


So without faith, a person can not have salvation or regeneration. So faith MUST play some part here, according to what you have said.

How much more faith must I have to be saved than the guy who rejects Grace? A mustard seeds worth? Not sure what that works out to in percentages. 10%? 20%?

It must be something. Otherwise no one would reject Gods Grace. Right?


I won't keep leading you down this trail. I know we don't have all the answers.
 
G

Grandpa

Senior Member
#109,782
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
3,190
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#109,782
Macabeus said:
I apologize for saying unkind words to you after your earlier posts.
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You mean when you said I was utterly contemptible and depraved?

That was more you blowing off steam than anything. You thought I was making fun of you. But I wasn't. I was playing around with PS.

I was basically ignoring everyone who thinks that works are required to be saved or to maintain salvation. I know what PS believes.


You tried to pick a fight. I decided not to. Which is weird for me because I love to fight...:ROFL:

I have thick skin so an apology is not even necessary. You may want to rescind that apology after you find out what I really believe...:ROFL:
 
dcontroversal

dcontroversal

Banned
#109,783
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,402
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#109,783
Macabeus said:
1 John 5:1. Everyone believing (present tense) has been born of God (perfect tense)

Hmmmmmmmmm
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You contradict yourself and scripture on every turn.....you have a lot to unlearn and then relearn to be correct.....and you wonder why I have always believed that at the root you peddle a self saving dogma that you must maintain....exactly why I laid into you when you first joined
 
G

Grandpa

Senior Member
#109,784
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
3,190
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#109,784
Melach said:
I said 100% lolz. im in trouble
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Yep. When we were all lined up for the Price is Right and you said 100% you would have been out.

I probably went too high with 25% too.

But if no one went lower than that then I could have won the Showcase.


I'm sorry Melach. Maybe there's some sort of consolation prize?
 
dcontroversal

dcontroversal

Banned
#109,785
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,402
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#109,785
You know....the well analogy above......If I am stuck in a well and someone throws me a rope if I just stand and look at it I will never be pulled out of the well right?

FROM FAITH TO FAITH the bible states....!!

Think on that a bit!
 
Melach

Melach

Well-known member
#109,786
Mar 28, 2019
2,064
1,527
113
#109,786
dcontroversal said:
You know....the well analogy above......If I am stuck in a well and someone throws me a rope if I just stand and look at it I will never be pulled out of the well right?

FROM FAITH TO FAITH the bible states....!!

Think on that a bit!
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yeah in calvinism you are dead at the bottom of well. and someoen throw you a rope you have to be resurrected and then you still need to be made to take the rope and pulled up. also not everyone gets the rope resurrection package
 
G

Grandpa

Senior Member
#109,787
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
3,190
113
#109,787
Melach said:
yeah in calvinism you are dead at the bottom of well. and someoen throw you a rope you have to be resurrected and then you still need to be made to take the rope and pulled up. also not everyone gets the rope resurrection package
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Who throws you the rope?

Who causes you to believe the rope will get you out?


Its tricky talking about cause and effect. You can get them reversed and they still seem like they make sense.

Which came first the chicken or the egg? Calvinism is just taking a stand on which one came first. And giving NO POWER to the one being saved and all THE POWER to the One doing the Saving.

I don't see any problems in doing that. As long as you don't pre-judge who you THINK God is saving and who you think He is not... Because no one knows that, not even Calvin.
 
Melach

Melach

Well-known member
#109,788
Mar 28, 2019
2,064
1,527
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#109,788
Grandpa said:
Who throws you the rope?

Who causes you to believe the rope will get you out?


Its tricky talking about cause and effect. You can get them reversed and they still seem like they make sense.

Which came first the chicken or the egg? Calvinism is just taking a stand on which one came first. And giving NO POWER to the one being saved and all THE POWER to the One doing the Saving.

I don't see any problems in doing that. As long as you don't pre-judge who you THINK God is saving and who you think He is not... Because no one knows that, not even Calvin.
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chicken came first God created chicken not egg.

i see big problem in calvinism cause i investigated it and it makes everything just meaningless. God really doesnt want all to be saved, just all kinds of people. they change the bible to fit tulip. they are only christian group i know who believes everything is predestinated. next time something bad happen dont say time and chance happeneth to all but say God predestinated this too to take place. but i wont want to get into calvinist debate i will never accept that teaching i already studied it and believed it was wrong and makes God worse than devil. who needs devil when you have god of calvinism?
 
G

Grandpa

Senior Member
#109,789
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
3,190
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#109,789
Melach said:
chicken came first God created chicken not egg.

i see big problem in calvinism cause i investigated it and it makes everything just meaningless. God really doesnt want all to be saved, just all kinds of people. they change the bible to fit tulip. they are only christian group i know who believes everything is predestinated. next time something bad happen dont say time and chance happeneth to all but say God predestinated this too to take place. but i wont want to get into calvinist debate i will never accept that teaching i already studied it and believed it was wrong and makes God worse than devil. who needs devil when you have god of calvinism?
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Its worse, for me, to believe that God is NOT Sovereign and He has no control over what is going on.

I can't accept that.

The biggest problem people see in Calvinism is that they aren't in charge of making God save them. They all of a sudden have to give up their own "sovereignty" and give it to God.
 
Melach

Melach

Well-known member
#109,790
Mar 28, 2019
2,064
1,527
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#109,790
Grandpa said:
Its worse, for me, to believe that God is NOT Sovereign and He has no control over what is going on.

I can't accept that.

The biggest problem people see in Calvinism is that they aren't in charge of making God save them. They all of a sudden have to give up their own "sovereignty" and give it to God.
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thats not true. everyone believes God is sovereign. why do sovereign mean you have to micromanage everything people do? it just means you have all power.

God has all control and sovereignity and in his sovereignity HE has chosen to go and let people decide who they serve

the biggest problem people see in calvinism isnt that they arent in charge of God saving i believe. i believe the biggest problem for people is they see all evil that takes place and they then hear God predestinated all whichsoever takes place as it says in your documents. that means all scandals and terror we hear from roman catholicism and middle-east and all big wars and all crimes is predestinated by God.

you know the saying "the devil made me do it"? as some criminals said. if they were calvinist they could say "God made me do it". i know calvinist say that no God doesnt make anyone do it, secondary causes but i dont believe in that explanation its so weak and trying to get around clear logical conclusion. if you predestinate it to happen you are responsibly
 
G

Grandpa

Senior Member
#109,791
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
3,190
113
#109,791
Melach said:
thats not true. everyone believes God is sovereign. why do sovereign mean you have to micromanage everything people do? it just means you have all power.

God has all control and sovereignity and in his sovereignity HE has chosen to go and let people decide who they serve

the biggest problem people see in calvinism isnt that they arent in charge of God saving i believe. i believe the biggest problem for people is they see all evil that takes place and they then hear God predestinated all whichsoever takes place as it says in your documents. that means all scandals and terror we hear from roman catholicism and middle-east and all big wars and all crimes is predestinated by God.

you know the saying "the devil made me do it"? as some criminals said. if they were calvinist they could say "God made me do it". i know calvinist say that no God doesnt make anyone do it, secondary causes but i dont believe in that explanation its so weak and trying to get around clear logical conclusion. if you predestinate it to happen you are responsibly
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I don't believe that Calvinism says God predestines evil.

I believe Calvinism says that God predestines some people to be His Children.


Those who aren't His Children are the ones causing the evil.


No one can say by Gods Influence they did anything but GOOD. So you obviously have a wrong view of what Calvinism is.
 
M

Macabeus

Banned
#109,792
Dec 27, 2018
4,170
876
113
#109,792
TooFastTurtle said:
Titus 2:11-12
For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
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Amen!!!
 
M

Macabeus

Banned
#109,793
Dec 27, 2018
4,170
876
113
#109,793
Grandpa said:
So a person AT LEAST needs to believe that God is and is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

Otherwise they reject Grace.

And you have said God doesn't cause anyone to reject Grace.


So without faith, a person can not have salvation or regeneration. So faith MUST play some part here, according to what you have said.

How much more faith must I have to be saved than the guy who rejects Grace? A mustard seeds worth? Not sure what that works out to in percentages. 10%? 20%?

It must be something. Otherwise no one would reject Gods Grace. Right?


I won't keep leading you down this trail. I know we don't have all the answers.
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I am not sayind faith is not necessary. I am saying the saving power is not in the faith, but in the one in whom we trust

This is REALLY elementary stuff here
 
Melach

Melach

Well-known member
#109,794
Mar 28, 2019
2,064
1,527
113
#109,794
Grandpa said:
I don't believe that Calvinism says God predestines evil.

I believe Calvinism says that God predestines some people to be His Children.


No one can say by Gods Influence they did anything but GOOD. So you obviously have a wrong view of what Calvinism is.
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1689 baptist confession chapter 3:

"God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein; nor is violence offered to the will of the creature, nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established; in which appears his wisdom in disposing all things, and power and faithfulness in accomplishing his decree"

they say god decreed all that come to pass, but then contradict and say God is not author of sin in that model. great job.

so you have wrong view sir. all calvinist creeds say same thing. and all calvinist pastors say same thing.
 
M

Macabeus

Banned
#109,795
Dec 27, 2018
4,170
876
113
#109,795
Grandpa said:
You mean when you said I was utterly contemptible and depraved?

That was more you blowing off steam than anything. You thought I was making fun of you. But I wasn't. I was playing around with PS.

I was basically ignoring everyone who thinks that works are required to be saved or to maintain salvation. I know what PS believes.


You tried to pick a fight. I decided not to. Which is weird for me because I love to fight...:ROFL:

I have thick skin so an apology is not even necessary. You may want to rescind that apology after you find out what I really believe...:ROFL:
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Umm.. I did not say YOU, I said your post was contemptible and depraved, talking about people who God comes to for answers and such. Biggest strawman I’ve ever seen
 
M

Macabeus

Banned
#109,796
Dec 27, 2018
4,170
876
113
#109,796
dcontroversal said:
You contradict yourself and scripture on every turn.....you have a lot to unlearn and then relearn to be correct.....and you wonder why I have always believed that at the root you peddle a self saving dogma that you must maintain....exactly why I laid into you when you first joined
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No argument, just asssertions without facts to back it up. That’s all you have, utterly devoid of any substance when you accuse people

Where did I contradict myself? I bet the contradictions are only in your head

So show me where I contradicted myself and I will fess up to it

Of course you won’t. Your MO is hit with accusations and then run when challenged.
 
M

Macabeus

Banned
#109,797
Dec 27, 2018
4,170
876
113
#109,797
Macabeus said:
1. No not everyone is saved

2. I did not ask if you had any part in your salvation. I asked how much power did your faith add to Gods power in regeneration. HUGE DIFFERENCE

3. The power is not in our faith. The power comes from the one in whom we believe🙂
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which part do you think is funny, DC. 1,2, or three
 
M

Macabeus

Banned
#109,800
Dec 27, 2018
4,170
876
113
#109,800
dcontroversal said:
You contradict yourself and scripture on every turn.....you have a lot to unlearn and then relearn to be correct.....and you wonder why I have always believed that at the root you peddle a self saving dogma that you must maintain....exactly why I laid into you when you first joined
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Show one contradiction.

You won’t because you’re just saying that because you have no argument against what I said.

The power of salvation is not in our faith, but in the one we believe. My six year old grandson knows this.

Only God has the power to raise us to new life. Your faith doesn’t do it. Your faith only serves as a instrumental means by which God saves you.
 
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