Did Jesus ever tell us that we no longer need to keep the law of Moses?
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If a man loves God and His Laws he will look for doctrine which supports that
If a man hates Gods Laws he will look for doctrine which supports that.
In the end, each man finds/sees according to what his heart desires.
Doing what our heart desires is impossible to detect, because a man cannot see his own heart, he cannot differentiate between his motivations and self-serving decisions and those of the pure desires of YHWH unless he is filled with the Holy Spirit who does guide men into all truth.
Otherwise it is carnal man using contrived doctrine to serve carnal desires. These can seem quite religious and pious, but in the end results in separation from God. Matt 7:23
SG
If a man hates Gods Laws he will look for doctrine which supports that.
In the end, each man finds/sees according to what his heart desires.
Doing what our heart desires is impossible to detect, because a man cannot see his own heart, he cannot differentiate between his motivations and self-serving decisions and those of the pure desires of YHWH unless he is filled with the Holy Spirit who does guide men into all truth.
Otherwise it is carnal man using contrived doctrine to serve carnal desires. These can seem quite religious and pious, but in the end results in separation from God. Matt 7:23
SG
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I suppose reading the bible and believing what it says plays an important role as well.
Have you ever tried to be perfect as our Father in Heaven is Perfect? Matt 5:48
Have you tried to do everything that is in Matthew 5? Not have anger in your heart, not lust after a woman, etc...
Once you try and find out you are not able do you just quit? Or do you just keep going not realizing you can't do it? Do you think you CAN do it? No, I don't think you would be able to convince anyone that you can.
So then I suppose you have two choices at this point. Continue in your failed philosophy of following law and ALWAYS failing.
Or coming to Christ to receive Rest.
Coming to Christ is better. It has the added benefits of Salvation, Righteousness, Wisdom, Redemption, Sanctification, Love, Joy, Peace, Faith and many other good things that I don't even understand yet. Resting in Christ also gives us the extra benefit of actually Keeping the Law in a way that we never could by our own work and our own understanding.
There is NO REASON to turn away from all this that we have in Christ to go back to our work and understanding of the law. Because our work and understanding of the law can NEVER give us what Christ gives us. And it doesn't keep what it is working at anyway...
Have you ever tried to be perfect as our Father in Heaven is Perfect? Matt 5:48
Have you tried to do everything that is in Matthew 5? Not have anger in your heart, not lust after a woman, etc...
Once you try and find out you are not able do you just quit? Or do you just keep going not realizing you can't do it? Do you think you CAN do it? No, I don't think you would be able to convince anyone that you can.
So then I suppose you have two choices at this point. Continue in your failed philosophy of following law and ALWAYS failing.
Or coming to Christ to receive Rest.
Coming to Christ is better. It has the added benefits of Salvation, Righteousness, Wisdom, Redemption, Sanctification, Love, Joy, Peace, Faith and many other good things that I don't even understand yet. Resting in Christ also gives us the extra benefit of actually Keeping the Law in a way that we never could by our own work and our own understanding.
There is NO REASON to turn away from all this that we have in Christ to go back to our work and understanding of the law. Because our work and understanding of the law can NEVER give us what Christ gives us. And it doesn't keep what it is working at anyway...
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I will never be done and I will always need all of it. It does not matter how long or many times I have studied it I still find in it new and wonderful wisdoms and knowledge of God. For me, There is a difference every time. What I read once without the knowledge from another place, brings new insight when read again. which taken together to another illuminates that part, and it is then the treasures are found. He buries them deep for those who seek. It is a promise, it is a truth On it goes, all being truth, all of it different, all of it of God. The Word of God never ever quits teaching me. One thing I have come to be sure of is the more I know, the more I know I don't know. There is infinite wisdom in that Book, I have not enough life to find it all. I am constantly amazed at how much I miss. But God opens our eyes to new truths on His timeline, for His purposes, not ours. Don't you love that? I sure do. How many times something so simple opens up and you wonder, HOW could I have missed that? Love it all Love it all Love it all.
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You have disregarded, lost faith in;
Php 4:13 KJV
(13) I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.
You have disregarded and lost faith in;
2Co 5:17 KJV
(17) Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
Note the conditional "if". This is telling on you GP!
By your statements you say "you cannot do things through CHrist, " You do not find strength to overcome", You are not "In Christ"!
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Revelation 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours, and their works do follow them.
Yes, I know, you will say, not their works at the law. Should I then, dismiss Gods calling of me and listen to you?
Yes, I know, you will say, not their works at the law. Should I then, dismiss Gods calling of me and listen to you?
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Mmmm… NO.
Resting in Christ, He who Strengthens us, is how we are able to Keep the Law.
Not by our own strength or our own understanding.
Old things are passed away. Such as working for your own Righteousness. Such as working for your own Salvation. Such as working for your own Sanctification. Such as working for your White Raiment.
I say no such thing.
All I say is that you must turn away from your own work in order to turn to Christ and be IN Christ.
You can't simultaneously work at the law and receive rest from it. You can't be simultaneously alive to the law and what it says and dead to the law and what it says.
I suppose you are stuck in your circular reasoning and the only way out is to come to Christ.
I thought I showed you that Rest in Christ is better than your work at the law. But somehow you can't see.
Resting in Christ, He who Strengthens us, is how we are able to Keep the Law.
Not by our own strength or our own understanding.
Old things are passed away. Such as working for your own Righteousness. Such as working for your own Salvation. Such as working for your own Sanctification. Such as working for your White Raiment.
I say no such thing.
All I say is that you must turn away from your own work in order to turn to Christ and be IN Christ.
You can't simultaneously work at the law and receive rest from it. You can't be simultaneously alive to the law and what it says and dead to the law and what it says.
I suppose you are stuck in your circular reasoning and the only way out is to come to Christ.
I thought I showed you that Rest in Christ is better than your work at the law. But somehow you can't see.
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Can anyone know the rest Christ has given us without a study of the Old Testament laws? Surely when you see all that had to be done for the forgiveness of sins prior to the work of Christ, Rest takes on a whole new meaning. a
Revelation 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours and their works do follow them.
What labours will we be resting from once we are in our celestial bodies. We know for at least 1000 years we will be priests, so what "works" would priests need to have? I bet, Luke 4:4 And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.
that every word is going to be important for that role. Could you imagine telling someone "not" to study every word. That would be like telling them to be least in the kingdom, wouldn't it? It is so funny how God keeps saying again and again in so many places in so many different ways basically
Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
Revelation 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
Revelation 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
Revelation 22:20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.
Yet boldly, everyday, there are those who try to make you not only "take away" but also "add to". And try and convince if you do not "disregard, ignore, or whatever", you are the one who has not come to Christ.
Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
And we shall keep them, no matter what anyone says, not just in our hearts but with our minds and with our voices, and we shall teach them as the righteousness of God because with out them, we only have OUR thoughts, and OUR ideas
Romans 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. (transgress the law)
Luke 9:23 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.
Revelation 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours and their works do follow them.
What labours will we be resting from once we are in our celestial bodies. We know for at least 1000 years we will be priests, so what "works" would priests need to have? I bet, Luke 4:4 And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.
that every word is going to be important for that role. Could you imagine telling someone "not" to study every word. That would be like telling them to be least in the kingdom, wouldn't it? It is so funny how God keeps saying again and again in so many places in so many different ways basically
Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
Revelation 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
Revelation 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
Revelation 22:20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.
Yet boldly, everyday, there are those who try to make you not only "take away" but also "add to". And try and convince if you do not "disregard, ignore, or whatever", you are the one who has not come to Christ.
Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
And we shall keep them, no matter what anyone says, not just in our hearts but with our minds and with our voices, and we shall teach them as the righteousness of God because with out them, we only have OUR thoughts, and OUR ideas
Romans 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. (transgress the law)
Luke 9:23 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.
No, what I see is you struggling to reason out the victory we have in Christ using carnal logic.
You seem to have left the Holy Spirit out of your equation. You cannot hear or see the thousands of testimonies of those who you slander and persecute who walk in the newness of life succeeding and resting in the anointing of the Holy Spirit, desirous of good works as a new creation. To me it shines a light on you as you still see our victory as something foreign, and since you have yet to experience it you reckon it as "ungodly", just like the RCC murdered so many anointed beleivers because they insisted they could have no such thing without paying homage to the RCC, you walk in ignorance of what the One True Elohim, The Heavenly Father has wrought in those who Love Him.
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Php 2:12-15 KJV
(12) Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
(13) For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
(14) Do all things without murmurings and disputings:
(15) That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;
Your part as the New Creation becomes one of demonstrating that which God has put on our hearts through His Holy Spirit. The word "work" now becomes one of joy. Having inspiration we should;
1Th 2:11-12 KJV
(11) As ye know how we exhorted and comforted and charged every one of you, as a father doth his children,
(12) That ye would walk worthy of God, who hath called you unto his kingdom and glory.
Are you so vain that you think you are so spiritual that you are set up high upon a seat of judgement to say to so many on here they are lost?
Have these that you call so many derogatory names beneath you?
Have you violated all the warnings not to place yourself in a position of Judge, jury and many here thing executioner. if you had a chance?
woe unto the man who continually condemns, slanders, accuses, and disputes men who are working out their salvation with fear and trembling.
SG
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I have no fear. Not an iota. Those are 3 of the many many things I see. I don't think you understand the love I have for the wisdom and knowledge of God. It isn't all about me being saved. That was my starting point. I am not required to keep the law like those who lived before Christ was sacrificed from my sins. Don't you get it, IT IS THROUGH THAT SACRIFICE I RECEIVE FORGIVENESS for the transgressions of the law. I do not have to be perfection, something I am aware I can never be but that doesn't let me off the hook from trying. Sanctified is an ongoing process.
Matthew 5:43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
Matthew 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
Matthew 5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
Matthew 5:46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
Matthew 5:47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
Matthew 5:43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
Matthew 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
Matthew 5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
Matthew 5:46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
Matthew 5:47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
OK, now I understand why Jesus stopped reading at that point, but we must know exactly what "all" refers to.
If ALL refers to ALL PROPHECIES than the Law will be in force until the establishment of the New Heaven and the New Earth, the last one of all prophecies. It would be easier to say "the Law will be in force forever" or "the Law will never be abolished".
When Jesus said "until all is accomplished" He was talking about the law of Moses, so my interpretation is that it would be in effect until all prophecies related to it were fulfilled.
If ALL refers to ALL PROPHECIES than the Law will be in force until the establishment of the New Heaven and the New Earth, the last one of all prophecies. It would be easier to say "the Law will be in force forever" or "the Law will never be abolished".
When Jesus said "until all is accomplished" He was talking about the law of Moses, so my interpretation is that it would be in effect until all prophecies related to it were fulfilled.
Which would seem true except for the fact that for the New Covenant to come in the old had to go out. So though the law can not pass that way, it did wax old and decay and go away so that what Jesus did for us would reign until heaven and earth pass. We can not change a word of the Bible. Not add, not take away, but free us from the old Covenant that was contrary to us to bring in one that set us free, God did that
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Well Jesus also says this in Luke:
Luke 16:16-17, " 16 “The Law and the Prophets were until John; since then the good news of the kingdom of God is preached, and everyone forces his way into it. 17 But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one dot of the Law to become void."
We can see the law is in effect in judgement/in the kingdom:
Revelation 22:14-15, " 14 Blessed [are] they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. 15 For without [are] dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
Matt 13:41-43, “The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.”
This is after He returns:
Matthew 3:12 His winnowing fork is in His hand to clear His threshing floor and to gather His wheat into the barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire."
Matthew 8:12But the sons of the kingdom will be cast into the outer darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."
Matthew 13:50and throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Revelation 21:8-9, " 8 But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.” 9 Then came one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues and spoke to me, saying, “Come, I will show you the Bride, the wife of the Lamb.”
Revelation 20:10-15, " 10 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. 11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. 13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. 14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
Luke 16:16-17, " 16 “The Law and the Prophets were until John; since then the good news of the kingdom of God is preached, and everyone forces his way into it. 17 But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one dot of the Law to become void."
We can see the law is in effect in judgement/in the kingdom:
Revelation 22:14-15, " 14 Blessed [are] they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. 15 For without [are] dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
Matt 13:41-43, “The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.”
This is after He returns:
Matthew 3:12 His winnowing fork is in His hand to clear His threshing floor and to gather His wheat into the barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire."
Matthew 8:12But the sons of the kingdom will be cast into the outer darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."
Matthew 13:50and throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Revelation 21:8-9, " 8 But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.” 9 Then came one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues and spoke to me, saying, “Come, I will show you the Bride, the wife of the Lamb.”
Revelation 20:10-15, " 10 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. 11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. 13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. 14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
What about untill haven and earth pass?
Also Marcelo, I have to log off, I will be back on later. I want to say I did not take anything you said as an attack on me and I do consider you a fried in a Bible discussion/debate. I respect you and fell you have also been respectful to me and don;t want either one of us to not be able to speak freely, I feel that is an omportant part of any real discussion. Talk later, hallelujah!
Also Marcelo, I have to log off, I will be back on later. I want to say I did not take anything you said as an attack on me and I do consider you a fried in a Bible discussion/debate. I respect you and fell you have also been respectful to me and don;t want either one of us to not be able to speak freely, I feel that is an omportant part of any real discussion. Talk later, hallelujah!
I see you have your heart set on the things of God and this is something precious in a world that turns its back to Him. I also see you are more a Law lover than a Law keeper. But, ... , let's debate!
You said you don't have to find a perfect animal and have it sacrificed -- you go straight to Christ. If you do that you are at minimum removing a tittle of the Law. Jesus said: "not one yod or a tittle", remember?
You said you don't have to find a perfect animal and have it sacrificed -- you go straight to Christ. If you do that you are at minimum removing a tittle of the Law. Jesus said: "not one yod or a tittle", remember?
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You can't still be confused by what I say. You must just be pretending.
Choose either Judaism or Christianity.
Don't try to blend the two together. Isn't there something in the law that says you aren't supposed to blend things together? Something about garments?
Jeremiah 33:9 And it shall be to me a name of joy, a praise and an honour before all the nations of the earth, which shall hear all the good that I do unto them: and they shall fear and tremble for all the goodness and for all the prosperity that I procure unto it.
Oh. Fear and tremble when they find out all the goodness that God does (for them).
1 Corinthians 1:30-31
30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.
Vain? I guess I can't help but think that some people here are EXCEEDINGLY foolish. By their own admission!
Galatians 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
Nope. Not made perfect by your work at the law. Not made righteous by your work at the law. Not saved or kept saved by your work at the law. Not sanctified by your work at the law. No fruit of righteousness produced by your work at the law.
So what IS produced by your work at the law?
Romans 7:6-9
6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
So sin, death and concupiscence are produced by your work at the law. Doesn't sound real good.
Wouldn't you rather have Wisdom, Salvation, Righteousness, Peace, Love, Faith, Sanctification, Redemption, and even more blessings than these?
Come to Christ and receive Rest from your work at the law.
Abide in Christ instead of turning away from him and continuing in your own work. Be the workmanship of God.
Choose either Judaism or Christianity.
Don't try to blend the two together. Isn't there something in the law that says you aren't supposed to blend things together? Something about garments?
Jeremiah 33:9 And it shall be to me a name of joy, a praise and an honour before all the nations of the earth, which shall hear all the good that I do unto them: and they shall fear and tremble for all the goodness and for all the prosperity that I procure unto it.
Oh. Fear and tremble when they find out all the goodness that God does (for them).
1 Corinthians 1:30-31
30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.
Vain? I guess I can't help but think that some people here are EXCEEDINGLY foolish. By their own admission!
Galatians 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
Nope. Not made perfect by your work at the law. Not made righteous by your work at the law. Not saved or kept saved by your work at the law. Not sanctified by your work at the law. No fruit of righteousness produced by your work at the law.
So what IS produced by your work at the law?
Romans 7:6-9
6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
So sin, death and concupiscence are produced by your work at the law. Doesn't sound real good.
Wouldn't you rather have Wisdom, Salvation, Righteousness, Peace, Love, Faith, Sanctification, Redemption, and even more blessings than these?
Come to Christ and receive Rest from your work at the law.
Abide in Christ instead of turning away from him and continuing in your own work. Be the workmanship of God.
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