Galatian Conundrums

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

RickStudies

Active member
Sep 10, 2019
782
222
43
Got a verse that says that?

13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

There it is, Romans 1. There is other scripture as well, not going to bother right now. I wasn`t criticizing the 12, they failed because Israel failed to unite behind them. Therefore the reconciling of the world came by their fall instead of by their rise as prophecied.

That`s why Israel rejected Yeshua. Israel was looking for a warrier Messiah. So Israel still waits for her promise to be fulfillled. And it will be which is why there will another another age on this earth after this one ends.
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
10,923
2,118
113
Keep in mind that Matthew 24:14[/26:13] is what will be being preached IN/DURING the [future] tribulation period [7-yrs / 70th-Wk]...

Matthew 24:14 -

"And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed [/preached] in the whole earth, for a testimony to all the nations; and then the end will come."


[I believe "the least of these My brethren" (Matt25:40) are the believing remnant of Israel (having come to faith WITHIN the trib yrs [FOLLOWING our Rapture/Departure]) and are who are the ones bringing this particular message during this particular time-frame (same as "the WISE [of Israel]" in Dan12:1-4,10; and the Matt22:8-14 passage [re: the INVITATION to the FEAST (i.e. earthly MK age)]; and the Rev19:9 verse [distinct from v.7]; and other related passages...)]
 

RickStudies

Active member
Sep 10, 2019
782
222
43
Keep in mind that Matthew 24:14[/26:13] is what will be being preached IN/DURING the [future] tribulation period [7-yrs / 70th-Wk]...

Matthew 24:14 -

"And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed [/preached] in the whole earth, for a testimony to all the nations; and then the end will come."


[I believe "the least of these My brethren" (Matt25:40) are the believing remnant of Israel (having come to faith WITHIN the trib yrs [FOLLOWING our Rapture/Departure]) and are who are the ones bringing this particular message during this particular time-frame (same as "the WISE [of Israel]" in Dan12:1-4,10; and the Matt22:8-14 passage [re: the INVITATION to the FEAST (i.e. earthly MK age)]; and the Rev19:9 verse [distinct from v.7]; and other related passages...)]
How does this fit in? Jesus has to be physically present for Israel to convert. They have to see Him before they will believe it.

8 In that day shall the Lord defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the Lord before them.

9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

11 In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.

12 And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart;

13 The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart;

14 All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart.
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
10,923
2,118
113
^ no, I don't see that in the passage you present.

I believe those who would wait till THAT point in time will have waited TOO LATE (so to speak).

I believe Matthew 23:39's wording shows that BEFORE He returns, that they must "SAY"... "Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord" (when they "shall say" this, then they "shall see"... and my thought is that they, like Paul [who I believe is the "type"], will "see" Him [DURING the trib] before He visibly appears at His "return" to the earth, as in, "SUDDENLY there shined round about him A LIGHT FROM HEAVEN" [Acts 9:3]), and THIS is what I believe Hebrews 9:28 is speaking of (that is, that it is NOT talking about EITHER "our Rapture/Departure [IN THE AIR]," NOR "His Second Coming to the earth ['RETURN']," but of those in the trib [the believing remnant of Israel, and those who will heed the Word of God thru them and the particular message they are to convey during that time frame (the "INITATION TO" the FEAST/promised and prophesied EARTHLY MK/the kingdom OF THE heavenS [on the earth])])


[Hosea 5:15-6:3; Daniel 12:1-4,10; Romans 11:15(25); Ezekiel 37:12-13,20-23; Isaiah 26:16-21; Micah 5:3 (distinct from v.2); John 6:39 (distinct from v.40); etc--ALL re: Israel's "future"; see also Daniel 12:12's "BLESSED" along with about 10 "BLESSED" passages (in gospels & NT) re: their entrance into the MK age]
 

RickStudies

Active member
Sep 10, 2019
782
222
43
^ no, I don't see that in the passage you present.

I believe those who would wait till THAT point in time will have waited TOO LATE (so to speak).

I believe Matthew 23:39's wording shows that BEFORE He returns, that they must "SAY"... "Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord" (when they "shall say" this, then they "shall see"... and my thought is that they, like Paul [who I believe is the "type"], will "see" Him [DURING the trib] before He visibly appears at His "return" to the earth, as in, "SUDDENLY there shined round about him A LIGHT FROM HEAVEN" [Acts 9:3]), and THIS is what I believe Hebrews 9:28 is speaking of (that is, that it is NOT talking about EITHER "our Rapture/Departure [IN THE AIR]," NOR "His Second Coming to the earth ['RETURN']," but of those in the trib [the believing remnant of Israel, and those who will heed the Word of God thru them and the particular message they are to convey during that time frame (the "INITATION TO" the FEAST/promised and prophesied EARTHLY MK/the kingdom OF THE heavenS [on the earth])])


[Hosea 5:15-6:3; Daniel 12:1-4,10; Romans 11:15(25); Ezekiel 37:12-13,20-23; Isaiah 26:16-21; Micah 5:3 (distinct from v.2); John 6:39 (distinct from v.40); etc--ALL re: Israel's "future"; see also Daniel 12:12's "BLESSED" along with about 10 "BLESSED" passages (in gospels & NT) re: their entrance into the MK age][/QUOTE


They will ready to Bless Him because He will rescue them from the genecide that is about to kill them all.
 

FollowtheShepherd

Well-known member
Sep 15, 2019
794
312
63
LOL, nice way to move the goal posts... Easy to be right when you change your stance half way through...

13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

There it is, Romans 1. There is other scripture as well, not going to bother right now. I wasn`t criticizing the 12, they failed because Israel failed to unite behind them. Therefore the reconciling of the world came by their fall instead of by their rise as prophecied.

That`s why Israel rejected Yeshua. Israel was looking for a warrier Messiah. So Israel still waits for her promise to be fulfillled. And it will be which is why there will another another age on this earth after this one ends.
Let the record show:

Not at all, the gospel of Paul fulfilled this. The 12 couldn`t get the job done. Erasing Paul is the only way your belief system can work.
Got a verse that says that?

or did you just make that up? Because their names are on the foundations of the kingdom

Revelation 21:14, "And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb."

Seems to me they did their job.

Peter was martyred in Rome about 66 AD, during the persecution under Emperor Nero.Crucified, upside down at his request, because he did not feel he was worthy to die in the same manner as the Messiah.

Andrew went to the "Mand of the Man-Eaters," in what is in modern times Russia. Christians there he was the first to bring the gospel to their land. He also preached in Asia Minor, modern-day Turkey, and in Greece, where he is said to have been crucified.

Thomas was probably most active in the area east of Syria. Tradition has him preaching as far east as India, where the ancient Marthoma Christians revere him as their founder. They claim that he died there when pierced through with the spears of four soldiers.

Philip possibly had a powerful ministry in Carthage in North Africa and then in Asia Minor, where he converted the wife of a Roman proconsul. In retaliation the proconsul had Philip arrested and cruelly put to death.

Matthew the tax collector and writer of a Gospel, ministered in Persia and Ethiopia. Some of the oldest reports say he was not martyred, while others say he was stabbed to death in Ethiopia.

Bartholomew had widespread missionary travels attributed to him by tradition: to India with Thomas, back to Armenia, and also to Ethiopia and Southern Arabia. There are various accounts of how he met his death as a martyr for the gospel.

James the son of Alpheus, is one of at least three James referred to in the New Testament. There is some confusion as to which is which, but this James is reckoned to have ministered in Syria. The Jewish historian Josephus reported that he was stoned and then clubbed to death.

Simon the Zealot so the story goes, ministered in Persia and was killed after refusing to sacrifice to the sun god.

Matthais was the apostle chosen to replace Judas. Tradition sends him to Syria with Andrew and to death by burning.

John is the only one of the company generally thought to have died a natural death from old age. He was the leader of the church in the Ephesus area and is said to have taken care of Mary the mother of Jesus in his home. During Domitian's persecution in the middle 90's, he was exiled to the island of Patmos. There he is credited with writing the last book of the New Testament--the Revelation.
Seems to me they did their job.

Peter was martyred in Rome about 66 AD, during the persecution under Emperor Nero.Crucified, upside down at his request, because he did not feel he was worthy to die in the same manner as the Messiah.

Andrew went to the "Mand of the Man-Eaters," in what is in modern times Russia. Christians there he was the first to bring the gospel to their land. He also preached in Asia Minor, modern-day Turkey, and in Greece, where he is said to have been crucified.

Thomas was probably most active in the area east of Syria. Tradition has him preaching as far east as India, where the ancient Marthoma Christians revere him as their founder. They claim that he died there when pierced through with the spears of four soldiers.

Philip possibly had a powerful ministry in Carthage in North Africa and then in Asia Minor, where he converted the wife of a Roman proconsul. In retaliation the proconsul had Philip arrested and cruelly put to death.

Matthew the tax collector and writer of a Gospel, ministered in Persia and Ethiopia. Some of the oldest reports say he was not martyred, while others say he was stabbed to death in Ethiopia.

Bartholomew had widespread missionary travels attributed to him by tradition: to India with Thomas, back to Armenia, and also to Ethiopia and Southern Arabia. There are various accounts of how he met his death as a martyr for the gospel.

James the son of Alpheus, is one of at least three James referred to in the New Testament. There is some confusion as to which is which, but this James is reckoned to have ministered in Syria. The Jewish historian Josephus reported that he was stoned and then clubbed to death.

Simon the Zealot so the story goes, ministered in Persia and was killed after refusing to sacrifice to the sun god.

Matthais was the apostle chosen to replace Judas. Tradition sends him to Syria with Andrew and to death by burning.

John is the only one of the company generally thought to have died a natural death from old age. He was the leader of the church in the Ephesus area and is said to have taken care of Mary the mother of Jesus in his home. During Domitian's persecution in the middle 90's, he was exiled to the island of Patmos. There he is credited with writing the last book of the New Testament--the Revelation.
 
Jan 12, 2019
7,497
1,399
113
LOL, nice way to move the goal posts... Easy to be right when you change your stance half way through...



Let the record show:





Seems to me they did their job.

Peter was martyred in Rome about 66 AD, during the persecution under Emperor Nero.Crucified, upside down at his request, because he did not feel he was worthy to die in the same manner as the Messiah.

Andrew went to the "Mand of the Man-Eaters," in what is in modern times Russia. Christians there he was the first to bring the gospel to their land. He also preached in Asia Minor, modern-day Turkey, and in Greece, where he is said to have been crucified.

Thomas was probably most active in the area east of Syria. Tradition has him preaching as far east as India, where the ancient Marthoma Christians revere him as their founder. They claim that he died there when pierced through with the spears of four soldiers.

Philip possibly had a powerful ministry in Carthage in North Africa and then in Asia Minor, where he converted the wife of a Roman proconsul. In retaliation the proconsul had Philip arrested and cruelly put to death.

Matthew the tax collector and writer of a Gospel, ministered in Persia and Ethiopia. Some of the oldest reports say he was not martyred, while others say he was stabbed to death in Ethiopia.

Bartholomew had widespread missionary travels attributed to him by tradition: to India with Thomas, back to Armenia, and also to Ethiopia and Southern Arabia. There are various accounts of how he met his death as a martyr for the gospel.

James the son of Alpheus, is one of at least three James referred to in the New Testament. There is some confusion as to which is which, but this James is reckoned to have ministered in Syria. The Jewish historian Josephus reported that he was stoned and then clubbed to death.

Simon the Zealot so the story goes, ministered in Persia and was killed after refusing to sacrifice to the sun god.

Matthais was the apostle chosen to replace Judas. Tradition sends him to Syria with Andrew and to death by burning.

John is the only one of the company generally thought to have died a natural death from old age. He was the leader of the church in the Ephesus area and is said to have taken care of Mary the mother of Jesus in his home. During Domitian's persecution in the middle 90's, he was exiled to the island of Patmos. There he is credited with writing the last book of the New Testament--the Revelation.
If the 12 got the job done, Jesus would have returned to Earth for his 2nd coming already and be ruling from Jerusalem. Matt 24:14.

In fact, when Peter preached his first sermon at Pentecost to the Jews, he did quote Joel's point about the Tribulation (Acts 2:20), that was mentioned by Jesus in Matt 24.

But his timing was off because he was not aware that God would interrupt the Kingdom program, and usher in the grace dispensation by saving Saul in Acts 9.
 

FollowtheShepherd

Well-known member
Sep 15, 2019
794
312
63
If the 12 got the job done, Jesus would have returned to Earth for his 2nd coming already and be ruling from Jerusalem. Matt 24:14.

In fact, when Peter preached his first sermon at Pentecost to the Jews, he did quote Joel's point about the Tribulation (Acts 2:20), that was mentioned by Jesus in Matt 24.

But his timing was off because he was not aware that God would interrupt the Kingdom program, and usher in the grace dispensation by saving Saul in Acts 9.
Wow. So please don't take me as being rude, we have gone back and forth yes, but at least we are dwelling on the word.

So you really don't believe if the 12 didn't convert every single human they were a failure? You really think Jesus expected the 12 to carry the message to every human? Or was the "great commission" for the disciples to make disciples so more and more people could carry the message?

Because you started by saying they never went to gentiles, and Peter only went to cornelius, when show history that thay all went to gentiles you chaged you story.
 
Jan 12, 2019
7,497
1,399
113
Wow. So please don't take me as being rude, we have gone back and forth yes, but at least we are dwelling on the word.

So you really don't believe if the 12 didn't convert every single human they were a failure? You really think Jesus expected the 12 to carry the message to every human? Or was the "great commission" for the disciples to make disciples so more and more people could carry the message?

Because you started by saying they never went to gentiles, and Peter only went to cornelius, when show history that thay all went to gentiles you chaged you story.
No I am not saying they have to reach everyone. I am saying if they succeeded, the Jewish nation would accept their Messiah and Jesus would have came back already. This was what Peter offered the Jews in Acts 3:20.

And I did not change my story, Gentiles were originally not in the picture. If the nation accepted Jesus, then all the prophecies that I have quoted to you before in Zechariah, Micah and Isaiah would have been fulfilled and only after Jesus returned physically to set up his Kingdom, then will the Gentiles be reached by the Jews. Of course, now we know that timetable has now been changed by the grace of God.

But no worries in the future, Revelations speak of 144,000 Jewish evangelists, together with the 2 witnesses of what I believe to be Elijah and Moses coming back, will be preaching the Gospel of the Kingdom once again to all the unbelieving Jews. They will do a far better job more than the 12 could do. It will be full of signs and wonders, which the Jews must have before they will believe.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
37,957
13,615
113
Gentiles were originally not in the picture.
John 4

I am saying if they succeeded, the Jewish nation would accept their Messiah and Jesus would have came back already.
Luke 4:14-30
apparently Jesus failed, too??

Matthew 10:17, 24:9, Luke 12:11, 21:12 etc
the Jews rejection of Christ was a total surprise and failure??
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
If the 12 got the job done, Jesus would have returned to Earth for his 2nd coming already and be ruling from Jerusalem. Matt 24:14.

In fact, when Peter preached his first sermon at Pentecost to the Jews, he did quote Joel's point about the Tribulation (Acts 2:20), that was mentioned by Jesus in Matt 24.

But his timing was off because he was not aware that God would interrupt the Kingdom program, and usher in the grace dispensation by saving Saul in Acts 9.
Where do you come up with this stuff?

Just asking..Do you make it up?
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
Gentiles have to follow Jesus by listening to Paul. Jesus said he was sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel
So gentiles do not have to listen to James, The book of Hebrews, John, Peter, All fine men of God who wrote much of the NT?

Just asking because this is what it appears you are saying
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
Not at all, the gospel of Paul fulfilled this. The 12 couldn`t get the job done. Erasing Paul is the only way your belief system can work.
What??

the 12 (what 12 by the way?) could not get it done?

lol. seems they did pretty good in my view.

But they also had their mission in the begining And that mission was In judea

Remember, this is where Jesus said it would start, then it would spread out, and continues to spread till this day
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
Even if you were right it wouldn`t make a difference. Prior to the ruling in Acts 15 a Gentile had to become a sojourner keeping the law in order to hook up with Peter and the gang. A sojourning Gentile is considered the same as native born in the law of Moses.
Acts 10
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
You understood the context of the discussion?

It’s about whether the 12 fulfilled the great commission.
what 12? Judas was a non believing traitor, And Steven was killed

And the great commission is being fulfilled as we speak, its not done yet, So how could they have fulfilled it even if it was 12?
 
Jan 12, 2019
7,497
1,399
113
what 12? Judas was a non believing traitor, And Steven was killed

And the great commission is being fulfilled as we speak, its not done yet, So how could they have fulfilled it even if it was 12?
Okay so my point was that the gc has not been fulfilled since Israel rejected their messiah and it will not be fulfilled until the events in revelation take place.

In the meantime, Gentiles are entering into the body of Christ thru the grace dispensation. The gc has been postponed for this purpose as Paul explained in romans 9 to 11.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
Okay so my point was that the gc has not been fulfilled since Israel rejected their messiah and it will not be fulfilled until the events in revelation take place.

In the meantime, Gentiles are entering into the body of Christ thru the grace dispensation. The gc has been postponed for this purpose as Paul explained in romans 9 to 11.
GC?

People will always be saved by grace Jews and gentiles are saved by grace today as they have since the beginning of time

Ad they will forever more.
 
Jan 12, 2019
7,497
1,399
113
GC?

People will always be saved by grace Jews and gentiles are saved by grace today as they have since the beginning of time

Ad they will forever more.
That is where we will agree to disagree here. We have debated this issue many times in other threads already so no point restarting it again. 😇