Not By Works

[KJV1611]

In the KJV it sounds like regeneration and renewing are included in salvation. The NASB also makes it sound like regeneration and renewing are included in salvation. The thing I don't like that the NASB says is that part where it says " deeds which we have done in righteousness". In Isaiah 64:6 our righteousness is compared to " filthy rags"

The KJV doesn’t include regeneration and renewal with salvation but I can see why you say that. We all know that we are RENEWED through the reading the words of the Bible. And I won’t belabor this, I’m just bringing out what I see in the KJV.

I’m not trying to make this a KJV only thing, I’m only pointing out that the newer translations define salvation as the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit and that’s why there is so much difficulty in seeing what I’m saying about the verses in the KJV.

Most people don’t read the KJV on a regular basis so it’s harder for them to understand the language. But when one version says something that is completely different from another version, we have to go with the one that’s right rather than the one that’s easier to read.

 

[KJV1611]

Interesting .... definitely spiritual
Not sure if the renewing of our mind is regeneration

The spirit of Christ in the believer is A NEW CREATION. That spirit is not REGENERATED from something that was birthed in or had fell into DEGENERATION.

The new creation in us is brand new, we never had it before Christ, hence there is nothing to REGENERATE.

 

[KJV1611]

Umm. it seems to me that no salvation losers/worker is around the corner. Is this good news in this long traveled thread?

It could be that the incorruptible seed has fell on good ground. 👍

 

[CherieR]

The KJV doesn’t include regeneration and renewal with salvation but I can see why you say that. We all know that we are RENEWED through the reading the words of the Bible. And I won’t belabor this, I’m just bringing out what I see in the KJV.

I’m not trying to make this a KJV only thing, I’m only pointing out that the newer translations define salvation as the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit and that’s why there is so much difficulty in seeing what I’m saying about the verses in the KJV.

Most people don’t read the KJV on a regular basis so it’s harder for them to understand the language. But when one version says something that is completely different from another version, we have to go with the one that’s right rather than the one that’s easier to read.

I grew up on the KJV along side the NIV which I got later on. The KJV bible has been in my family for quite some time. My mom likes reading from it, my grandparents read from it, it was likely the bible my father read from. So the KJV bible has a sentimental value to me verses other versions. I do find the King James Version hard to read at times but also do like how it sounds at times especially in the Psalms. And also something about when the King James Bible says Thus saith the LORD, I like how that sounds.

 

[fredoheaven]

The argument is about semantics.

Romans 5:8 King James Version (KJV)
8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

The manifestation of God's love

Tit 3:4 (KJV) But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,

Tit 3:5 (KJV) Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Tit 3:6 (KJV) Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

The appearance of the kindness and love of God came by:

1. Saving us.
2. The washing of regeneration.
3. Renewing of the Holy Ghost.

All of these were shed on us abundantly though Jesus Christ and these things show us that the love of God has appeared.

That means that salvation and the washing of regeneration and the renewing of the Holy Ghost are not the same and I would argue that they don’t come at the same time based on what I’ve seen take place in my own life.

I was saved immediately, but the regeneration in my life took quite a while as did the renewing of my mind by the Holy Ghost.

I would place the importance of comma here to get the full meaning of the passage. I just read a guide to a proper comma and according to rule no. 3 Use commas to offset appositives from the rest of the sentence.

Appositives act as synonyms for a juxtaposed word or phrase. For example, "While running, I saw a mallard, a kind of duck." "A kind of duck" is the appositive, which gives more information about "a mallard."

https://www.businessinsider.com/a-guide-to-proper-comma-use-2013-9

So the phrase "washing of regeneration" give us the information about being saved. Regeneration, born again, re-birth are synonymously used in the terminology of the general word salvation. The appearance of kindness and love of God is through the personhood of Jesus Christ. The means is regeneration or the re-birth and this took place one time when we get saved. Renewing of the Holy Ghost simply means our dead spirit has become alive or born again.

 

[KJV1611]

I grew up on the KJV along side the NIV which I got later on. The KJV bible has been in my family for quite some time. My mom likes reading from it, my grandparents read from it, it was likely the bible my father read from. So the KJV bible has a sentimental value to me verses other versions. I do find the King James Version hard to read at times but also do like how it sounds at times especially in the Psalms. And also something about when the King James Bible says Thus saith the LORD, I like how that sounds.

I grew up on the NIV and only moved to the KJV after I started seeing things that I knew were wrong and places where the NIV contradicted its own self.

My basic premise was that God is pure and incorruptible and since that’s true, his word must also match his attributes.

I’ll be the first to admit that reading the KJV was very difficult at first but the more I read it the easier it was to read.

Even with reading the KJV, I never grew a whole lot. My spiritual growth started when I started believing every word as it’s written. I stopped trying to make verses say what I THOUGHT they should say and let it say what it says and conform my thoughts to the scripture.

I had to basically relearn everything I was taught and start over with the scripture and rebuild my faith based on what the Bible actually says verses what I had been taught it said.

Since then I don’t care to read anyone else’s commentary on the Bible. God gave me everything I need right there in one book. Every once in a while I’ll look up a word in the dictionary but as much as possible, I let the Bible be my dictionary.

 

[KJV1611]

The argument is about semantics.

Romans 5:8 King James Version (KJV)
8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

The manifestation of God's love


I would place the importance of comma here to get the full meaning of the passage. I just read a guide to a proper comma and according to rule no. 3 Use commas to offset appositives from the rest of the sentence.

Appositives act as synonyms for a juxtaposed word or phrase. For example, "While running, I saw a mallard, a kind of duck." "A kind of duck" is the appositive, which gives more information about "a mallard."

https://www.businessinsider.com/a-guide-to-proper-comma-use-2013-9

So the phrase "washing of regeneration" give us the information about being saved. Regeneration, born again, re-birth are synonymously used in the terminology of the general word salvation. The appearance of kindness and love of God is through the personhood of Jesus Christ. The means is regeneration or the re-birth and this took place one time when we get saved. Renewing of the Holy Ghost simply means our dead spirit has become alive or born again.

Comas also separate several things in a list of things. 😊

 

[Macabeus]

Interesting .... definitely spiritual
Not sure if the renewing of our mind is regeneration

Interesting .... definitely spiritual
Not sure if the renewing of our mind is regeneration

Regeneration is instant upon faith

Renewing of the mind begins at regeneration and progresses throughout our life. It is both instant in one aspect and progressive In another, like sanctification.

At least that’s what I see in scripture. If someone corrects me on this or anything using scripture, I am open to whatever the scripture says

I would say the renewing of the mind is a catalyst for progressive sanctification. We are transformed as our minds are renewed

 

[CherieR]

I grew up on the NIV and only moved to the KJV after I started seeing things that I knew were wrong and places where the NIV contradicted its own self.

My basic premise was that God is pure and incorruptible and since that’s true, his word must also match his attributes.

I’ll be the first to admit that reading the KJV was very difficult at first but the more I read it the easier it was to read.

Even with reading the KJV, I never grew a whole lot. My spiritual growth started when I started believing every word as it’s written. I stopped trying to make verses say what I THOUGHT they should say and let it say what it says and conform my thoughts to the scripture.

I had to basically relearn everything I was taught and start over with the scripture and rebuild my faith based on what the Bible actually says verses what I had been taught it said.

Since then I don’t care to read anyone else’s commentary on the Bible. God gave me everything I need right there in one book. Every once in a while I’ll look up a word in the dictionary but as much as possible, I let the Bible be my dictionary.

You could say that while I was growing up, sometimes I was given "incentives" to read and memorize verses. As a young child, there was a person in the church who would give me I am thinking maybe a quarter when I would tell him a bible verse that I memorized. So if I memorized a verse, I would quote it to him. I don't remember having a NIV until I was given one in 2007.

 

[Macabeus]

In the KJV it sounds like regeneration and renewing are included in salvation. The NASB also makes it sound like regeneration and renewing are included in salvation. The thing I don't like that the NASB says is that part where it says " deeds which we have done in righteousness". In Isaiah 64:6 our righteousness is compared to " filthy rags"

You and the NAS are both right. We are saved by Gods mercy and grace, not by any work that we do. That would include regeneration

It says God saved us according to His mercy, not according to works that we have done. Works have NOTHING to do with regeneration. Regeneration is something God accomplishes all by Himself. We don’t help God in our spiritual rebirth any more than we help in our physical birth

John 3

 

[KJV1611]

Regeneration is instant upon faith

What part of you was regenerated instantly at the time of salvation? You are made up of body, soul and spirit, which one of those was instantly regenerated?

 

[Macabeus]

What part of you was regenerated instantly at the time of salvation? You are made up of body, soul and spirit, which one of those was instantly regenerated?

Everything but body was regenerated. The body will be redeemed at the resurrection

That’s why the Spirit is said to be the pledge of our inheritance.

The redemption of the body is in the act of glorification, which is the completion of God’s work He began in us. Phil 1:6

 

[KJV1611]

You could say that while I was growing up, sometimes I was given "incentives" to read and memorize verses. As a young child, there was a person in the church who would give me I am thinking maybe a quarter when I would tell him a bible verse that I memorized. So if I memorized a verse, I would quote it to him. I don't remember having a NIV until I was given one in 2007.

Well one thing we can probably agree on is that the KJV are much more eloquent and beautiful than any other version. The language of the KJV is beautifully poetic in sound.

 

[KJV1611]

Everything but body was regenerated. The body will be redeemed at the resurrection

You think mighty highly of yourself Mac... I still see myself as wicked sinner that needs the grace of God everyday of my life.

 

[Macabeus]

You think mighty highly of yourself Mac... I still see myself as wicked sinner that needs the grace of God everyday of my life.

It is not thinking highly of myself. The way you describe yourself , that you need the grace of God every day, The same can be said of ANY regenerate person. Of course we need the grace of God every day. But you don’t go far enough. We need the grace of God EVERY MOMENT

That’s why we have an advocate with the Father, a High Priest seated in the heavenlies interceding for us. And our life is already there, hidden in Him

That’s why we are KEPT by the power of God. Salvation is a work of God, from first to last.

 

[Macabeus]

The spirit of Christ in the believer is A NEW CREATION. That spirit is not REGENERATED from something that was birthed in or had fell into DEGENERATION.

The new creation in us is brand new, we never had it before Christ, hence there is nothing to REGENERATE.

The new creation is the result of regeneration. Like a baby is the result of conception and birth.

The Drawing is conception and regeneration is the birth. All performed by God.

Once we are born, the process of growth begins. But regeneration itself is instant

 

[KJV1611]

It is not thinking highly of myself. The way you describe yourself , that you need the grace of God every day, The same can be said of ANY regenerate person. Of course we need the grace of God every day. But you don’t go far enough. We need the grace of God EVERY MOMENT

That’s why we have an advocate with the Father, a High Priest seated in the heavenlies interceding for us. And our life is already there, hidden in Him

That’s why we are KEPT by the power of God. Salvation is a work of God, from first to last.

Well now your agreeing with me. You said that your spirit and soul regeneration is the same thing as salvation but now you’re saying that regeneration is a process... and I agree, it is a process and it starts by the washing of regeneration, the washing of the word of God which takes years and is never fully completed.

 

[KJV1611]

The new creation is the result of regeneration. Like a baby is the result of conception and birth.

The Drawing is conception and regeneration is the birth. All performed by God.

Once we are born, the process of growth begins. But regeneration itself is instant

What part of NEW creation do you not understand lol. NEW is a new creation, not an upgrade of an old creation. Your old man was crucified with Christ. He’s dead, he’s not coming back.

The new man in you is not an upgrade of that old man, it’s a new man - Christ in us the hope of glory.

 

[Macabeus]

Well now your agreeing with me. You said that your spirit and soul regeneration is the same thing as salvation but now you’re saying that regeneration is a process... and I agree, it is a process and it starts by the washing of regeneration, the washing of the word of God which takes years and is never fully completed.

I did NOT say regeneration is a process.

1. Drawing to Jesus MAY BE a process.

2. Progressive Sanctification is a process

3. Growth is a process

4. Preservation is a processs

But regeneration, justification, and adoption happen INSTANTLY when a person believes

Do you believe justification is a process. I hope not. Regeneration is no more a process than justification. Neither are processes

 

[Macabeus]

What part of NEW creation do you not understand lol. NEW is a new creation, not an upgrade of an old creation. Your old man was crucified with Christ. He’s dead, he’s not coming back.

The new man in you is not an upgrade of that old man, it’s a new man - Christ in us the hope of glory.

When did I deny this? How is talking about a new birth talking about an upgrade? Confused 🤷‍♂️