Why do Dispensationalists teach Separation Theology?
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Have you read my many posts on how:
--1 Thessalonians 5:9-10 (v.10 esp) has the SAME TWO Grk words as in verse 6?
--so that, verse 10 is saying (in view of what v.6 just said), "[Who died for us] THAT whether we may WATCH OR whether we may SLEEP [<--SAME TWO WORDS as in verse 6! (and "sleep" here being DISTINCT from the "sleep" of the prev CHPT!)], we should live together WITH [G4862 - UNION-with] Him"
[this ^ (about "our Rapture") is set in contrast to the points being made in the Olivet Discourse and related passages which are in regard to His Second Coming to the earth--so that it is "post-tribbers" who wrongly threaten "the Church which is His body" of such "warnings" [i.e. MIS-APPLIED]... and perhaps those "pre-tribbers" who are not well-taught or who pick up such notions from "post-tribbers" [etc], who improperly apply the various passages...
(or, I guess I could ALSO mention, those who disregard Paul's epistles altogether as authoritative--I know some who do throw his writings under the bus, due to their not grasping these purposeful DISTINCTIONS )]
--1 Thessalonians 5:9-10 (v.10 esp) has the SAME TWO Grk words as in verse 6?
--so that, verse 10 is saying (in view of what v.6 just said), "[Who died for us] THAT whether we may WATCH OR whether we may SLEEP [<--SAME TWO WORDS as in verse 6! (and "sleep" here being DISTINCT from the "sleep" of the prev CHPT!)], we should live together WITH [G4862 - UNION-with] Him"
[this ^ (about "our Rapture") is set in contrast to the points being made in the Olivet Discourse and related passages which are in regard to His Second Coming to the earth--so that it is "post-tribbers" who wrongly threaten "the Church which is His body" of such "warnings" [i.e. MIS-APPLIED]... and perhaps those "pre-tribbers" who are not well-taught or who pick up such notions from "post-tribbers" [etc], who improperly apply the various passages...
(or, I guess I could ALSO mention, those who disregard Paul's epistles altogether as authoritative--I know some who do throw his writings under the bus, due to their not grasping these purposeful DISTINCTIONS )]
If you are saying that part of the criticisms I am leveling are due to poorly instructed disciples, I agree with that.
However, I think that's a pretty large number of individuals.
By the way, it doesn't help that the last time I visited a Calvary Chapel (which is very rare), one member who is into prophesy was having a "prophecy watch" meeting that evening. Mental images of playing "pin the tail on the antichrist" came to mind as he was making his announcement. I came from a background where the headquarters leadership was always making wild speculations on such things, so I have a definite distaste for it. It seems to me like time is better spent with studying salvation or something else rather than looking for Apache helicopters in Revelation, and trying to figure out whose name adds up to 666.
Also, I should mention I go to a church that is possibly dispensationalist but they rarely talk about it. They simply go through the Bible book by book, and that is fine with me
Jesus was the lamb slain before the foundation of the earth. This implies that it was foreordained that the Father would send the Son prior to the creation of mankind. Find the Scripture
Jesus was the lamb slain before the foundation of the earth. This implies that it was foreordained that the Father would send the Son prior to the creation of mankind. Find the Scripture
Please clarify what you mean by "it"... Do you refer to his comment? That he can't possibly be referring to "covenant theology" with what he is saying? He is saying he can [/will] provide quotes from the sources/authorities to which he refers. His discussion [/debate, of sorts] was with those holding CT, if I recall, so of course it made perfect sense in the context of the convo, for him to be referring to this precise thing, just as it says.
[so, I just wondered if the article you've provided is making such a point against "dispensationalists" as is often the case... ]
[so, I just wondered if the article you've provided is making such a point against "dispensationalists" as is often the case... ]
In view of the above comment (especially the bold ^ ), perhaps the readers of this thread might be interested in reading one authors take on the subject ("apocalyptic genre" so called):
Paul Martin Henebury - https://drreluctant.wordpress.com/2018/11/15/the-apocalyptic-wrong-turn-pt-1/
"The Apocalyptic (Wrong) Turn - Part 1" (there are, I think, 5 parts)
["literalizing everything"... really?? ("dispensationalism" doesn't interpret the Revelation in such a way, as is being suggested … though believing there IS "meaning" AT BACK of what is being expressed therein!)]
Paul Martin Henebury - https://drreluctant.wordpress.com/2018/11/15/the-apocalyptic-wrong-turn-pt-1/
"The Apocalyptic (Wrong) Turn - Part 1" (there are, I think, 5 parts)
["literalizing everything"... really??
("dispensationalism" doesn't interpret the Revelation in such a way, as is being suggested … though believing there IS "meaning" AT BACK of what is being expressed therein!)]^ EDIT: actually, here is the article on that Subject that I had intended to post instead of the above:
https://drreluctant.wordpress.com/2017/12/28/apocalyptic-fixation/
"Apocalyptic Fixation" - Paul Martin Henebury
[quoting from article]
"If you have been keeping abreast of evangelical treatments of the books of Daniel, Ezekiel, and Zechariah, or the Olivet Discourse or Book of Revelation you will have run into the term “Apocalyptic literature.” It’s the favorite go-to for anyone who wants to stop the mouths of the prophets while sounding scholarly.
"I realize that opening line is a bit testy, but I write it as one who has spent some time studying the major works on Apocalyptic – all written by critical liberal scholars – and have read the almost threadbare regurgitations of conservatives who are content to use this scholarship to support their reading of the Bible while retaining traditional beliefs."
[more at link]
https://drreluctant.wordpress.com/2017/12/28/apocalyptic-fixation/
"Apocalyptic Fixation" - Paul Martin Henebury
[quoting from article]
"If you have been keeping abreast of evangelical treatments of the books of Daniel, Ezekiel, and Zechariah, or the Olivet Discourse or Book of Revelation you will have run into the term “Apocalyptic literature.” It’s the favorite go-to for anyone who wants to stop the mouths of the prophets while sounding scholarly.
"I realize that opening line is a bit testy, but I write it as one who has spent some time studying the major works on Apocalyptic – all written by critical liberal scholars – and have read the almost threadbare regurgitations of conservatives who are content to use this scholarship to support their reading of the Bible while retaining traditional beliefs."
[more at link]
Amen, great verse! Did you read the one where Jesus is a wooden door? I thought He was the son of God! But He is actually a wooden door, and a lamb and a lion at the same time....... Seriously dude. How sad is this "selective wooden literalism".
You dont even understand what you're saying. You hyper-dispies always do this, yet you dont realize that people lived in the time of Jesus and heard those words and cherished them. You have no concept of audience relevancy, no concept of historical christianity, no concept of church history, and because of that you think posting that verse makes me say "OH LOOK, thats a hard saying, sheesh, looks like Jesus was just running off his mouth talking nonsense until Paul came along and told us the real truth, what Jesus said was just to Israel for a few minues (and maybe again in "the tribulation" where jews magically know which books of the bible apply to them)"
YOu spiritualize the Bible more than anyone, few examples: the fake "church ages" in Revelation, the made up "two gospels" (probably the most heinous error one could make) so lets not talk about spiritualizing, lets put that to REST
This concept of Christianity is SO FOREIGN to 100% of Church history, that you need to cut down on the arrogance there bro, let me handle that I got a leg to stand on!
Here me go, debunking hyper-dispies simply, not only does the Bible teach of "THE" (singular, one, IN THA GREEK) GOSPEL, but what you guys call "the Gospel" is just a snippet of 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 and you then conclude Jesus' teachings and other Apostle's teachings is "another Gospel, for another time"
If you HONESTLY BELIEVE, all there is to the Gospel is 1 Corintihans 15:1-4, you are really REALLY robbing people.
Mark 1:1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;
Thats the beginning of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, right there. Looks like the Bible has more to say than 1 Cor 15:1-4.
I wont even waste my time arguing with hyper-dispies, its literally a waste, you simply are deceived and thats it, teaching multiple plans of salvation in different time periods, two (maybe even more who knows) gospels, discredit much of the NT as being only to "israel". Now that this fake belief system has been debunked my job here is done.
Dont let these guys rob you of the GLORIOUS teachings of our Lord Jesus Christ as recorded in the Gospels!
I let you have the last word Guojing. Enjoy it! Im done with you. In fact, your next post will be to "Israel" only. not to "the Church"
You dont even understand what you're saying. You hyper-dispies always do this, yet you dont realize that people lived in the time of Jesus and heard those words and cherished them. You have no concept of audience relevancy, no concept of historical christianity, no concept of church history, and because of that you think posting that verse makes me say "OH LOOK, thats a hard saying, sheesh, looks like Jesus was just running off his mouth talking nonsense until Paul came along and told us the real truth, what Jesus said was just to Israel for a few minues (and maybe again in "the tribulation" where jews magically know which books of the bible apply to them)"
YOu spiritualize the Bible more than anyone, few examples: the fake "church ages" in Revelation, the made up "two gospels" (probably the most heinous error one could make) so lets not talk about spiritualizing, lets put that to REST
This concept of Christianity is SO FOREIGN to 100% of Church history, that you need to cut down on the arrogance there bro, let me handle that I got a leg to stand on!
Here me go, debunking hyper-dispies simply, not only does the Bible teach of "THE" (singular, one, IN THA GREEK) GOSPEL, but what you guys call "the Gospel" is just a snippet of 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 and you then conclude Jesus' teachings and other Apostle's teachings is "another Gospel, for another time"
If you HONESTLY BELIEVE, all there is to the Gospel is 1 Corintihans 15:1-4, you are really REALLY robbing people.
Mark 1:1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;
Thats the beginning of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, right there. Looks like the Bible has more to say than 1 Cor 15:1-4.
I wont even waste my time arguing with hyper-dispies, its literally a waste, you simply are deceived and thats it, teaching multiple plans of salvation in different time periods, two (maybe even more who knows) gospels, discredit much of the NT as being only to "israel". Now that this fake belief system has been debunked my job here is done.
Dont let these guys rob you of the GLORIOUS teachings of our Lord Jesus Christ as recorded in the Gospels!
I let you have the last word Guojing. Enjoy it! Im done with you. In fact, your next post will be to "Israel" only. not to "the Church"
Amen, great verse! Did you read the one where Jesus is a wooden door? I thought He was the son of God! But He is actually a wooden door, and a lamb and a lion at the same time....... Seriously dude. How sad is this "selective wooden literalism".
You dont even understand what you're saying. You hyper-dispies always do this, yet you dont realize that people lived in the time of Jesus and heard those words and cherished them. You have no concept of audience relevancy, no concept of historical christianity, no concept of church history, and because of that you think posting that verse makes me say "OH LOOK, thats a hard saying, sheesh, looks like Jesus was just running off his mouth talking nonsense until Paul came along and told us the real truth, what Jesus said was just to Israel for a few minues (and maybe again in "the tribulation" where jews magically know which books of the bible apply to them)"
YOu spiritualize the Bible more than anyone, few examples: the fake "church ages" in Revelation, the made up "two gospels" (probably the most heinous error one could make) so lets not talk about spiritualizing, lets put that to REST
This concept of Christianity is SO FOREIGN to 100% of Church history, that you need to cut down on the arrogance there bro, let me handle that I got a leg to stand on!
Here me go, debunking hyper-dispies simply, not only does the Bible teach of "THE" (singular, one, IN THA GREEK) GOSPEL, but what you guys call "the Gospel" is just a snippet of 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 and you then conclude Jesus' teachings and other Apostle's teachings is "another Gospel, for another time"
If you HONESTLY BELIEVE, all there is to the Gospel is 1 Corintihans 15:1-4, you are really REALLY robbing people.
Mark 1:1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;
Thats the beginning of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, right there. Looks like the Bible has more to say than 1 Cor 15:1-4.
I wont even waste my time arguing with hyper-dispies, its literally a waste, you simply are deceived and thats it, teaching multiple plans of salvation in different time periods, two (maybe even more who knows) gospels, discredit much of the NT as being only to "israel". Now that this fake belief system has been debunked my job here is done.
Dont let these guys rob you of the GLORIOUS teachings of our Lord Jesus Christ as recorded in the Gospels!
I let you have the last word Guojing. Enjoy it! Im done with you. In fact, your next post will be to "Israel" only. not to "the Church"
You dont even understand what you're saying. You hyper-dispies always do this, yet you dont realize that people lived in the time of Jesus and heard those words and cherished them. You have no concept of audience relevancy, no concept of historical christianity, no concept of church history, and because of that you think posting that verse makes me say "OH LOOK, thats a hard saying, sheesh, looks like Jesus was just running off his mouth talking nonsense until Paul came along and told us the real truth, what Jesus said was just to Israel for a few minues (and maybe again in "the tribulation" where jews magically know which books of the bible apply to them)"
YOu spiritualize the Bible more than anyone, few examples: the fake "church ages" in Revelation, the made up "two gospels" (probably the most heinous error one could make) so lets not talk about spiritualizing, lets put that to REST
This concept of Christianity is SO FOREIGN to 100% of Church history, that you need to cut down on the arrogance there bro, let me handle that I got a leg to stand on!
Here me go, debunking hyper-dispies simply, not only does the Bible teach of "THE" (singular, one, IN THA GREEK) GOSPEL, but what you guys call "the Gospel" is just a snippet of 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 and you then conclude Jesus' teachings and other Apostle's teachings is "another Gospel, for another time"
If you HONESTLY BELIEVE, all there is to the Gospel is 1 Corintihans 15:1-4, you are really REALLY robbing people.
Mark 1:1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;
Thats the beginning of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, right there. Looks like the Bible has more to say than 1 Cor 15:1-4.
I wont even waste my time arguing with hyper-dispies, its literally a waste, you simply are deceived and thats it, teaching multiple plans of salvation in different time periods, two (maybe even more who knows) gospels, discredit much of the NT as being only to "israel". Now that this fake belief system has been debunked my job here is done.
Dont let these guys rob you of the GLORIOUS teachings of our Lord Jesus Christ as recorded in the Gospels!
I let you have the last word Guojing. Enjoy it! Im done with you. In fact, your next post will be to "Israel" only. not to "the Church"
You utter all these remarks without even answering the question.
Looking at the list at the bottom of the article, I agree with about 19 statements from the covenant theology side.
Stuff I disagree with is things like Church starting before pentecost. Reason: Jesus said "i WILL build my church" future-tense, on this rock! So it wasnt done yet.
Second is the one that says the Holy Spirit indwelt believers in all times and cannot be withdrawn. Reason: When you read the OT you see God's spirit go in and out of people and people say things like "Take not thy Spirit from me" and God sending evil spirits on people and things like that. So CLEARLY it was not the same kind of indwelling as we have today. IN MY OPINION!
Stuff I disagree with is things like Church starting before pentecost. Reason: Jesus said "i WILL build my church" future-tense, on this rock! So it wasnt done yet.
Second is the one that says the Holy Spirit indwelt believers in all times and cannot be withdrawn. Reason: When you read the OT you see God's spirit go in and out of people and people say things like "Take not thy Spirit from me" and God sending evil spirits on people and things like that. So CLEARLY it was not the same kind of indwelling as we have today. IN MY OPINION!
"I WILL continue to build my church" present- tense
Flesh is flesh regardless of time periods.
The first recored person that received grace was Abel. He is the first recorded martyr who blood to this day cries out.
"Take not thy Spirit from me" only showed the value of the intimacy of the power of God that men have in these bodies of death
2 Corinthians 4:7But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.
It was not as if the Spirit was taken and lost and Christ had to be crucified over and over.
The same Holy Spirit worked in them as it does with us on this side of the first century reformation. They received the end of their salvation from the beginning just as we do.
Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls. Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.1 Peter 1:11
Flesh is flesh regardless of time periods.
The first recored person that received grace was Abel. He is the first recorded martyr who blood to this day cries out.
"Take not thy Spirit from me" only showed the value of the intimacy of the power of God that men have in these bodies of death
2 Corinthians 4:7But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.
It was not as if the Spirit was taken and lost and Christ had to be crucified over and over.
The same Holy Spirit worked in them as it does with us on this side of the first century reformation. They received the end of their salvation from the beginning just as we do.
Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls. Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.1 Peter 1:11
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My view of incidences like Saul is that he was unconverted but God used him to rule over Israel and anointed him with the Spirit in that role. I don’t think he was a true believer. Same thing with some priests who behaved wickedly.
One could be unconverted and possess the Spirit in this sense only.
Regarding Pentecost my position is that Israel was the “pattern” for the Church but I as not the Church itself. The Church was the fulfillment. Some compare it to the scaffolding around the building as it was being erected.
Ligon is a Presbyterian and he believes in paedobaptist Covenant Theology though. He believes that the Mosaic Covenant and the New Covenant are essentially the same covenant under different administrations.
I think 1689 Federalism is a more accurate view. They hold the position that the Mosaic Covenant was typological of the New Covenant. 1689 Federalists are represented by many Reformed Baptists but not all.
I think Ligan’s points are mostly accurate and are the same criticisms I would level. However, there are some issues I would be closer to a dispensationalist.
I think I mention that I attend a church that may be dispensationalist but it doesn’t affect their teaching much.
One could be unconverted and possess the Spirit in this sense only.
Regarding Pentecost my position is that Israel was the “pattern” for the Church but I as not the Church itself. The Church was the fulfillment. Some compare it to the scaffolding around the building as it was being erected.
Ligon is a Presbyterian and he believes in paedobaptist Covenant Theology though. He believes that the Mosaic Covenant and the New Covenant are essentially the same covenant under different administrations.
I think 1689 Federalism is a more accurate view. They hold the position that the Mosaic Covenant was typological of the New Covenant. 1689 Federalists are represented by many Reformed Baptists but not all.
I think Ligan’s points are mostly accurate and are the same criticisms I would level. However, there are some issues I would be closer to a dispensationalist.
I think I mention that I attend a church that may be dispensationalist but it doesn’t affect their teaching much.
Sounds like a saved man to me:
1 Samuel 10:6-9 [NIV]
The Spirit of the Lord will come powerfully upon you, and you will prophesy with them; and you will be changed into a different person. Once these signs are fulfilled, do whatever your hand finds to do, for God is with you.
“Go down ahead of me to Gilgal. I will surely come down to you to sacrifice burnt offerings and fellowship offerings, but you must wait seven days until I come to you and tell you what you are to do.”
As Saul turned to leave Samuel, God changed Saul’s heart, and all these signs were fulfilled that day.
1 Samuel 10:6-9 [NIV]
The Spirit of the Lord will come powerfully upon you, and you will prophesy with them; and you will be changed into a different person. Once these signs are fulfilled, do whatever your hand finds to do, for God is with you.
“Go down ahead of me to Gilgal. I will surely come down to you to sacrifice burnt offerings and fellowship offerings, but you must wait seven days until I come to you and tell you what you are to do.”
As Saul turned to leave Samuel, God changed Saul’s heart, and all these signs were fulfilled that day.
After the rapture some may repent but when the Lord returns to the valley of Megiddo all who worshiped the beast or obeyed the anti Christ till the end will be utterly destroyed. Yes every knee shall bow but the Lord will have already sepperated the sheep from the goats. All of the goats will be destroyed.
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My point was: I agree on some points with both covenant theology and dispensationalism.
Thats why I cant really lock myself into one of these. I believe we should just take the Bible for what it says as SIMPLY as possible and go from there, no matter where it leads us
Thats the key in my opinion is SIMPLICITY, SIMPLE, because the Bible is written to simple people, not theologians and scholars PROOF:
1 Corinthians 1
For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written:
“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;
the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.”
Where is the wise person? Where is the teacher of the law? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. Jews demand signs and Greeks look for wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. For the foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than human strength.
Brothers and sisters, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth. But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong.
Now if I was FORCED to choose one or the other, I would choose dispensationalism because ATLEAST it holds to things SEEN in the Bible, whereas covenant theology is based on MADE UP covenants that are nowhere mentioned in the Bible. They draw parallels and typology, which is fine, but dispensationalists are more CAREFUL with it, and usually make these connections only when the NEW TESTAMENT Apostles make these connections.
(May I say btw, DISPENSATIONALISM and HYPER-DISPENSATIONALISM are different. Hyper-dispies some of them go so far as to deny water baptism and say the only parts of the Bible that are applicable to church is the epistles of Paul, however these are a small small group within dispensationalism)
Thats why I cant really lock myself into one of these. I believe we should just take the Bible for what it says as SIMPLY as possible and go from there, no matter where it leads us
Thats the key in my opinion is SIMPLICITY, SIMPLE, because the Bible is written to simple people, not theologians and scholars PROOF:
1 Corinthians 1
For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written:
“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;
the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.”
Where is the wise person? Where is the teacher of the law? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. Jews demand signs and Greeks look for wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. For the foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than human strength.
Brothers and sisters, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth. But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong.
Now if I was FORCED to choose one or the other, I would choose dispensationalism because ATLEAST it holds to things SEEN in the Bible, whereas covenant theology is based on MADE UP covenants that are nowhere mentioned in the Bible. They draw parallels and typology, which is fine, but dispensationalists are more CAREFUL with it, and usually make these connections only when the NEW TESTAMENT Apostles make these connections.
(May I say btw, DISPENSATIONALISM and HYPER-DISPENSATIONALISM are different. Hyper-dispies some of them go so far as to deny water baptism and say the only parts of the Bible that are applicable to church is the epistles of Paul, however these are a small small group within dispensationalism)
Wait, how would a non dispensationalist like you understand that particular teaching from Jesus?
You utter all these remarks without even answering the question.
You utter all these remarks without even answering the question.
BTW @Guojing I read back my post to you and I have to say man to man I AM SORRY. I spoke too harshly and made too many ASSUMPTIONS about things you did not even SAY (atleast yet
) and I got too arrogant and SNAPPY, VERY unChristlike and stupid behavior on my part. AND FOR THAT I apologize and repent in front of GOD and YOU and all the rest of the folks who had to witness that, I come from the mean streets and I got a SHORT FUSE, its no excuse though! Now sometimes such posts are WARRANTED such as when someone is preaching torah for salvation and things, but you didnt deserve that. HOPE you can still answer my question ^above there, how do you see that verse you posted?One more thing: Can you atleast come meet me midway and agree that SOME of Jesus' teachings are for today? I mean ALL Scripture is profitable, not just Paul's epistles! It says that in Paul's epistles too @ 2 Timothy 3:16.
I come meet you there too and agree that OBVIOUSLY not everything Jesus said in His earthly ministry applies to the Church, SUCH AS: Obeying all that the Pharisees tell you to do since they are sitting in Moses' seat and "go and give a sacrifice" AND SO ON!
Tell me how do you understand it then? I understand it as: Its better for you to lose an arm rather than be cast into hell with both arms, thats how scary hell is. And if you're tempted to sin you're better off cutting your arm off or eye than engaging in sin. Shows you how much God hates sin!
BTW @Guojing I read back my post to you and I have to say man to man I AM SORRY. I spoke too harshly and made too many ASSUMPTIONS about things you did not even SAY (atleast yet) and I got too arrogant and SNAPPY, VERY unChristlike and stupid behavior on my part. AND FOR THAT I apologize and repent in front of GOD and YOU and all the rest of the folks who had to witness that, I come from the mean streets and I got a SHORT FUSE, its no excuse though! Now sometimes such posts are WARRANTED such as when someone is preaching torah for salvation and things, but you didnt deserve that. HOPE you can still answer my question ^above there, how do you see that verse you posted?
One more thing: Can you atleast come meet me midway and agree that SOME of Jesus' teachings are for today? I mean ALL Scripture is profitable, not just Paul's epistles! It says that in Paul's epistles too @ 2 Timothy 3:16.
I come meet you there too and agree that OBVIOUSLY not everything Jesus said in His earthly ministry applies to the Church, SUCH AS: Obeying all that the Pharisees tell you to do since they are sitting in Moses' seat and "go and give a sacrifice" AND SO ON!
BTW @Guojing I read back my post to you and I have to say man to man I AM SORRY. I spoke too harshly and made too many ASSUMPTIONS about things you did not even SAY (atleast yet
) and I got too arrogant and SNAPPY, VERY unChristlike and stupid behavior on my part. AND FOR THAT I apologize and repent in front of GOD and YOU and all the rest of the folks who had to witness that, I come from the mean streets and I got a SHORT FUSE, its no excuse though! Now sometimes such posts are WARRANTED such as when someone is preaching torah for salvation and things, but you didnt deserve that. HOPE you can still answer my question ^above there, how do you see that verse you posted?One more thing: Can you atleast come meet me midway and agree that SOME of Jesus' teachings are for today? I mean ALL Scripture is profitable, not just Paul's epistles! It says that in Paul's epistles too @ 2 Timothy 3:16.
I come meet you there too and agree that OBVIOUSLY not everything Jesus said in His earthly ministry applies to the Church, SUCH AS: Obeying all that the Pharisees tell you to do since they are sitting in Moses' seat and "go and give a sacrifice" AND SO ON!
---------------------------------------------------- Are there two gospels? -------------------------------------------------------
All those gathered at the Feast of Pentecost knew what Jesus was preaching before he ascended to heaven. lets go over the similarities of Paul and Peter.
Peter Acts 2:21 “And it shall come to pass that whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.' Paul says this very thing in Rom.10
Paul says this is the gospel he preached 1 Cor.15:1-4. This is what Peter explained on Pentecost, which is the same subject, Jesus’ Death and resurrection.
Acts 2:22-24 "Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a Man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves also know- "Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you have taken by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death; "whom God raised up, having loosed the pains of death, because it was not possible that He should be held by it.
Acts 2:32-33 "This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses. "Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear.”
The Holy Spirit bore witness to the truth and made them witnesses of the truth.
Acts 2:38 Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.”
In other words you have walked away from Jesus, whom God gave as Messiah. Change your mind, turn toward him and be baptized to show that you are now committed and genuinely believe and you will be born again, by receiving the Spirit of God.
Acts 4:2 being greatly disturbed that they taught the people and preached in Jesus the resurrection from the dead.”
Acts 4:33 And with great power the apostles gave witness to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus. And great grace was upon them all.”
If one studies what Peter says later we find him agreeing with Paul and he even says this of Paul
2 Peter 3:15-18 “and account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation-- as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you,
as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures. You therefore, beloved, since you know this beforehand, beware lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked; but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory both now and forever. Amen.”
What is the error of the wicked that Peter would be referring to? He tells us it will have one fall from their own steadfastness. His answer is to grow in the grace and knowledge of the Lord, not keep the law as the Judaizers/ legalists were insisting.
When people get into the points of minutia before they see the bigger picture they will ALWAYS miss the point.
God presented Jesus to his people of the covenant first. Acts 3:26 "To you first, God, having raised up His Servant Jesus, sent Him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from your iniquities."
Rom 1:16 “For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek.”
There is only one gospel, not two and if one insists there are two, one of them is false. If they do not hold to the gospel that Paul preached, which is what Peter preached for both the Jews and non Jews (Gentiles) then they have accepted another gospel and will be judged for disseminating it to others.
