Did Jesus ever tell us that we no longer need to keep the law of Moses?

[FollowtheShepherd]

I don't think Paul's gospel applied to demons.

Did you reply to the wrong post? What does Paul's gospel have to do with satan sinning? Im confused are you actually saying Paul's wrote his gospel before the garden of eden? lol I assume not just wrong post?

I asked

So do you think satan sinned in the garden?

You replied

He wanted to be God himself, even before God created Adam. So no, it was way before.

I replied

Well then there had to be some law or else there could be no sin...

 

[Guojing]

Did you reply to the wrong post? What does Paul's gospel have to do with satan sinning? Im confused are you actually saying Paul's wrote his gospel before the garden of eden? lol I assume not just wrong post?

I asked

So do you think satan sinned in the garden?

You replied

He wanted to be God himself, even before God created Adam. So no, it was way before.

I replied

Well then there had to be some law or else there could be no sin...

You are using my earlier point where I stated that there is no imputation of sin without the Law correct?

I am saying that doctrine only applied to human beings, not Satan.

Otherwise, even Satan himself could accept Jesus's death burial resurrection to be saved too, but we know that is not going to happen.

 

[FollowtheShepherd]

You are using my earlier point where I stated that there is no imputation of sin without the Law correct?

I am saying that doctrine only applied to human beings, not Satan.

Otherwise, even Satan himself could accept Jesus's death burial resurrection to be saved too, but we know that is not going to happen.

Im using common sense, the law tells us what righteousness and sin is, God says what is sin and what is not sin.

Yes the word shows satan wil not repent, but I have not found any explicit proof that satan could not possibly. Again the word says satan will not.

 

[Guojing]

Im using common sense, the law tells us what righteousness and sin is, God says what is sin and what is not sin.

Yes the word shows satan wil not repent, but I have not found any explicit proof that satan could not possibly. Again the word says satan will not.

So the Bible is written to explain to human beings, descendants of Adam, what went wrong and how we can get right with God once again.

That is to accept Jesus's work where he fulfilled the entire Law on our behalf and died so that thru us believing in his death and resurrection, we also fulfilled the entire Law thru the divine exchange.

None of these is available to Satan and his demons.

 

[FollowtheShepherd]

So the Bible is written to explain to human beings, descendants of Adam, what went wrong and how we can get right with God once again.

That is to accept Jesus's work where he fulfilled the entire Law on our behalf and died so that thru us believing in his death and resurrection, we also fulfilled the entire Law thru the divine exchange.

None of these is available to Satan and his demons.

OK you hav eled to conversation way off in a different direction...

This was my queston and you led it somewhere else post by post...

Is that a metaphor or did Paul literally die?

and

was it the law that caused death

or

sin that caused death?

 

[Guojing]

OK you hav eled to conversation way off in a different direction...

This was my queston and you led it somewhere else post by post...

Is that a metaphor or did Paul literally die?

and

was it the law that caused death

or

sin that caused death?

Already replied right?

Law came first, then sin, then death.

You then brought in Satan to the discussion which was not my intent 😇

 

[FollowtheShepherd]

Already replied right?

Law came first, then sin, then death.

You then brought in Satan to the discussion which was not my intent 😇

But that did not answer my questions, I will ask in a different manner, maybe I didn;t word it well IDK, here goes

Is it the law in itself that causes death or is it the breaking of the law (sin) that causes death?

(old questions are below*)

*Is that a metaphor or did Paul literally die? and was it the law that caused death or sin that caused death?

 

[Guojing]

But that did not answer my questions, I will ask in a different manner, maybe I didn;t word it well IDK, here goes

Is it the law in itself that causes death or is it the breaking of the law (sin) that causes death?

(old questions are below*)

*Is that a metaphor or did Paul literally die? and was it the law that caused death or sin that caused death?

The law itself does not cause death, it is holy just and good Romans 7:12

The problem is our flesh. With our flesh, it gets stirred up by the law, and hence sin is inevitable. Paul struggled with covetousness, which was one of the 10 commandments. He apparently kept everything else but that was the one that got him.

Once sin got him, death came.

Hope this is clear now.

 

[FollowtheShepherd]

The law itself does not cause death, it is holy just and good Romans 7:12

The problem is our flesh. With our flesh, it gets stirred up by the law, and hence sin is inevitable. Paul struggled with covetousness, which was one of the 12 commandments. He apparently kept everything else but that was the one that got him.

Once sin got him, death came.

Hope this is clear now.

Yes, thank you. I maybe didn;t word the question right before.

I agree exceot for one point I don;t think it's the law that makes us want to sin, I think it's satan's influence and men's corrupt hearts.

Matthew 4:1-4, " 1 Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil. 2 And after fasting forty days and forty nights, he was hungry. 3 And the tempter came and said to him, “If you are the Son of God, command these stones to become loaves of bread.” 4 But he answered, “It is written, “‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that comes from the mouth of God.’”

James 1:12-18, " 12 Blessed [is] the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him. 13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: 14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. 15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. 16 Do not err, my beloved brethren. 17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. 18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures."

But if we have God's spirit we can overcome (probably not every sginle time) and we can love His ways and walk in them:

Ezekiel 36:26-27, " 26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do [them].

 

[Guojing]

Yes, thank you. I maybe didn;t word the question right before.

I agree exceot for one point I don;t think it's the law that makes us want to sin, I think it's satan's influence and men's corrupt hearts.

Matthew 4:1-4, " 1 Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil. 2 And after fasting forty days and forty nights, he was hungry. 3 And the tempter came and said to him, “If you are the Son of God, command these stones to become loaves of bread.” 4 But he answered, “It is written, “‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that comes from the mouth of God.’”

James 1:12-18, " 12 Blessed [is] the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him. 13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: 14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. 15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. 16 Do not err, my beloved brethren. 17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. 18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures."

But if we have God's spirit we can overcome (probably not every sginle time) and we can love His ways and walk in them:

Ezekiel 36:26-27, " 26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do [them].

As I have stated, Gentile Church should get our doctrine from Paul, not James. James was writing to the 12 tribes of Israel,

What Paul stated was

For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. Romans 7:9

I think the English construction of that verse makes it clear that

1. when the law came,
2. sin revived,
3. and then he died.

 

[FollowtheShepherd]

As I have stated, Gentile Church should get our doctrine from Paul, not James. James was writing to the 12 tribes of Israel,

What Paul stated was

For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. Romans 7:9

I think the English construction of that verse makes it clear that

1. when the law came,
2. sin revived,
3. and then he died.

But Jesus told the 12 to go to gentiles, so I listen to Him:

Matthew 28:19-20, “Therefore, as you go, disciple all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to obey all that I have commanded you. And remember, I am with you each and every day until the end of the age.”

“nations” is word #G1484 ἔθνος ethnos (eth'-nos) n., 1. a race (as of the same habit), i.e. a tribe., 2. (specially) a foreign (non-Jewish) one, Gentiles., 3. (usually, by implication) pagan., [probably from G1486], KJV: Gentile, heathen, nation, people, Root(s): G1486

Also Peter says he was sent to gentiles, this is confirmed by Jesus in Mat 28 and by the Spirit in Acts 10

Acts 15:6-7, “So the apostles and the elders met to consider this statement. After a lengthy debate, Peter stood up and said to them, “Brothers, you know that in the early days God chose me to be the one among you through whom the Gentiles would hear the message of the gospel and believe."

But Paul says different the Jesus and Peter; Paul says Peter and the 12 is to Jews

Galatians 2:7-9, “In fact, they saw that I had been entrusted with the gospel for the uncircumcised, just as Peter had been entrusted with the gospel for the circumcised. For the one who worked through Peter by making him an apostle to the circumcised also worked through me by sending me to the Gentiles. 9 and when James and Cephas and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given to me, they gave the right hand of fellowship to Barnabas and me, that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised.”

but even though Jesus said Himself the 12 were sent to gentiles, it's ok because paul says "1Timothy 2:7, "...I am telling you the truth. I am not lying.""

1Timothy 2:7, "For this reason I was appointed to be an announcer, an apostle, and a faithful and true teacher of the gentiles. I am telling you the truth. I am not lying."

 

[FollowtheShepherd]

I think the English construction of that verse makes it clear that

1. when the law came,
2. sin revived,
3. and then he died.

So according to Paul is the law death or not?

Romans 7:12-14, “So that the Law truly is holy, and the command holy, and righteous, and good. Therefore, has that which is good become death to me? Let it not be! But the sin, that sin might be manifest, was working death in me through what is good, so that sin through the command might become an exceedingly great sinner. For we know that the Law is Spiritual, but I am fleshly, sold under sin."

2 Corinthians 3:7-8, “But if the administering of death in letters, engraved on stones, was esteemed, so that the children of Yisra’yl were unable to look steadily at the face of Mosheh because of the esteem of his face, which was passing away, how much more esteemed shall the administering of the Spirit not be?”

Jesus saus:

Revelation 22:14-15, " 14 Blessed [are] they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. 15 For without [are] dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

 

[FollowtheShepherd]

Matthew 7:24-27, " 24 “Everyone then who hears these words of mine and does them will be like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25 And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house, but it did not fall, because it had been founded on the rock. 26 And everyone who hears these words of mine and does not do them will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. 27 And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell, and great was the fall of it.”

 

[PS]

I doubt I ever said anything about learning obedience but frankly there is no doubt that you could learn about it from the law.

What I always say is this: the law is good for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction. (2nd Timothy 3)

It`s scripture and when you disagree with me on this you disagree with the Bible.

Timothy is saying it is profitable to study scripture. You take that to mean the law, I disagree, I do not think there is any profit in studying Jewish law. The prophets, yes.

 

[Guojing]

So according to Paul is the law death or not?

Romans 7:12-14, “So that the Law truly is holy, and the command holy, and righteous, and good. Therefore, has that which is good become death to me? Let it not be! But the sin, that sin might be manifest, was working death in me through what is good, so that sin through the command might become an exceedingly great sinner. For we know that the Law is Spiritual, but I am fleshly, sold under sin."

Already stated, you need to consider the role our flesh plays in this, unless you are denying you have that flesh?

The law itself does not cause death, it is holy just and good Romans 7:12

The problem is our flesh. With our flesh, it gets stirred up by the law, and hence sin is inevitable. Paul struggled with covetousness, which was one of the 10 commandments. He apparently kept everything else but that was the one that got him.

Once sin got him, death came.

 

[TMS]

Read the whole chapter.
Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

We are not gentiles. If we are part of the family of God we are spiritual Jews.
Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: 10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

 

[SimpleGardner]

Hello SG,
It is just the basic common sense of it all that seems to elude them. We are all sinners, there must be law. Repent, there must be law. Be righteous, there must be law. Do not kill, there must be law. Obey, there must be law. Against some things there is no law, so there must be law. Knowing good from evil, there must be law.
But because they can not get rid of the law out right, the next step is to make following the law itself bad. Follow the law you are trying to be justified. Following the law you are working towards salvation, Following the law means you have not been saved. Following the law means you are not lead by the spirit. Following the law means you have to follow them all.
It all goes on and on and is nothing but sad.

Follow the law you must follow them all. What is the opposite of that? Follow no law. It is like they disannul the life and death of Jesus completely. There is never a bit about repentance and remission of sin yet when Jesus came out of the wilderness

Matthew 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, REPENT for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Without the law, what is repentance for?

Forgive us our trespasses? Without law how do you trespass?

It is so basic, I can't believe there is an argument.

God is the lawgiver is He not? If you abrogate the law are you not doing the same to God?

Why is obediance to the law so scarry? Why do some believe it can't be done?

I know it all comes back to that doctrine of death OSAS somehow but I don't know how. If you do please let me know. The only thing I can think of is they are "already" perfect and so can't sin so the law can't be valid anymore. I feel funny writing it because it makes no sense to me. I know Satan hated Gods law. Maybe my answer could be found in that. I don't know.

Hey DeighAnn,

Let me address your last thought first. I have read confessions from most if not all of them where they admit to sinning almost multiple times daily. Without the morally regenerative work of the Holy Spirit a man may wish to be good and right and just, but "Holiness" is a gift that we receive. The receipt of that gift is transformative from within. David would say;

Psa 51:10-13 NIV
(10) Create in me a pure heart, O God, and renew a steadfast spirit within me.
(11) Do not cast me from your presence or take your Holy Spirit from me.
(12) Restore to me the joy of your salvation and grant me a willing spirit, to sustain me.
(13) Then I will teach transgressors your ways, and sinners will turn back to you.

It is obvious that David was quite aware that he needed this anointing to be "right" with his Creator. This anointing had made it possible for David to fellowship with God through obedience to his commandments.

Yahshua knew that His disciples would need The Holy Spirit to proceed and admonished them;


Luk 24:49 KJV (49) And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.

Joh 14:26 NIV (26) But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

They waited for their Pentecost, for "Power from on High", "For the Teacher of all things". This very thing is the dynamic that changes it all! Without it we are all "carnal" men trying to bring forward "spiritual" things.

The following verses indicate that without the anointing of the Holy Spirit all of Yahshau's, and Paul's and Gods words are foolishness to us. Carnal men will make of them what they will and when men anointed with the Holy Spirit speak, the carnal men hear foolishness.

1Co 2:11-14 NIV

(11) For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.
(12) We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us.
(13) This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words.
(14) The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Have you ever looked at the word "Christ"?


G5547
Χριστός
Christos
Thayer Definition:
Christ = “anointed”
1) Christ was the Messiah, the Son of God
2) anointed


Christ literally means "anointed"

There was Jesus and then there was Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ means Jesus the "anointed one". I prefer to refer to Jesus as Yahshua, so it would be Yahshua Christ.

To become part of the "body of Christ" we must "tarry" for the "anointing" of the Holy Spirit. "If" we have the Spirit of God, as Paul repeatedly qualifies many of his comments we become part of the "body of the anointed ones" We become "Christ", or "anointed". Without this anointing the thoughts of God and the ways of God, and the commands of God are all academic and mean very little as they are perceived and known and desirable only through the "anointing".

Wow, I have written too much and I have only addressed the last point. Sorry if I wrote too much.

SG

 

[eternally-gratefull]

That does not make the law bad, that makes sin bad, sin = death

I never said the law was bad, it is good, in fact its perfect, when taken in context.

It has been leading people to God and has been doing that for 4000 some years.

James 1:12-18, " 12 Blessed is the man who remains steadfast under trial, for when he has stood the test he will receive the crown of life, which God has promised to those who love him. 13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God,” for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one. 14 But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. 15 Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death. 16 Do not be deceived, my beloved brothers. 17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights with whom there is no variation or shadow due to change. 18 Of his own will he brought us forth by the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

John 8:34-36, " 34 Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who practices sin is a slave to sin. 35 The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son remains forever. 36 So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed."

Why does sin cause death? What is the curse?

You seem fixated on death and curses, Im fixate on life and blessings;

The law brings a curse to anyone who does not fulfill it, thats why paul said anyone who is under law is under a cursed, because cursed is the one who does not obey every word.

That would be on me

I am focused on life and blessing

Jesus told us how.. the law of love, and the spirit and life.

Deuteronomy 28:1-2, " 1 “And if you faithfully obey the voice of the LORD your God, being careful to do all his commandments that I command you today, the LORD your God will set you high above all the nations of the earth. 2 And all these blessings shall come upon you and overtake you, if you obey the voice of the LORD your God.

Yes, and how did the ones who obeyed carry out that obedience?

Jesus gave you the answer,, love.

But thats only one selected verse look at tall the verses around it! James is not saying "If we keep the whole law yet stumble in one point we are guilty of the whole law" therefore reject or shun or whatever the law, he is saying to obey it! Literally the next thing he says


James 2:8-13, " 8 If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing well. 9 But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10 For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become accountable for all of it. 11 For he who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” If you do not commit adultery but do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak and so act as those who are to be judged under the law of liberty. 13 For judgment is without mercy to one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment.

Yes, one sin your done

Moses he got that from moses, when he said cursed is the one who does not confirm every word of this law by doing them

And if there was a question, paul repeated that in Galatians three

The law is not our guide, it is our condemnation

Love and being christlike is our guide,

 

[eternally-gratefull]

No mostly likely if they currently believe that no, unless they are about to have a real fast change!

It also brigs blessing according to the same chapter you are quoting.

Well of course

It is more blessed to give than receive, when we are not loving we are taking, when we are loving we are obedient, and blessed.

 

[FollowtheShepherd]

Already stated, you need to consider the role our flesh plays in this, unless you are denying you have that flesh?

The law itself does not cause death, it is holy just and good Romans 7:12

The problem is our flesh. With our flesh, it gets stirred up by the law, and hence sin is inevitable. Paul struggled with covetousness, which was one of the 10 commandments. He apparently kept everything else but that was the one that got him.

Once sin got him, death came.

Right on, thats why I quoted James before I think he explains it in a clear non-philosophical no nonsense way:

James 1:12-18, "13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: 14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed."