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Other: He was a righteous man in an ungodly city. He may have been looking forward for the Messiah to come but I don't know either way as to if he knew about the Messiah coming.
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Hevosmies358
Guest
Carnal Christian even though I hesitate to even answer CARNAL. We don't know much about his life to begin with.
2Pe 2:7 And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:
2Pe 2:8 (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds
We see that Lot wasnt happy with all the wickedness going on in SodomCity. Not much is said about Lot. Me personally I woulda SMACKED HIM for what he offered to the mob at Sodom!
Despite this: Peter calls Lot just. and says he had a righteous soul and I cant argue with that!
My theory is: Perhaps Lot panicked and offered them because he figured "we gotta give em something and I cant be out here sacrificing angels". I dont know what it was like, and I have to believe what the Bible teaches. Im no saint myself i come from the mean streets.
I've always said this too: Righteousness is RELATIVE to your environment. And im not talking about the IMPUTED kind, which we know is PERFECT. Im talking about actual, doing right here.
If you have done some time, you know in the underworld people respect certain crimes, and some they dont. They have their own twisted moral code. Such is the case in the regular world sometimes too, if you grow up surrounded with ABSOLUTE WICKEDNESS and are half-way decent, you could say you "stand out" from the crowd!
2Pe 2:7 And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:
2Pe 2:8 (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds
We see that Lot wasnt happy with all the wickedness going on in SodomCity. Not much is said about Lot. Me personally I woulda SMACKED HIM for what he offered to the mob at Sodom!
Despite this: Peter calls Lot just. and says he had a righteous soul and I cant argue with that!
My theory is: Perhaps Lot panicked and offered them because he figured "we gotta give em something and I cant be out here sacrificing angels". I dont know what it was like, and I have to believe what the Bible teaches. Im no saint myself i come from the mean streets.
I've always said this too: Righteousness is RELATIVE to your environment. And im not talking about the IMPUTED kind, which we know is PERFECT. Im talking about actual, doing right here.
If you have done some time, you know in the underworld people respect certain crimes, and some they dont. They have their own twisted moral code. Such is the case in the regular world sometimes too, if you grow up surrounded with ABSOLUTE WICKEDNESS and are half-way decent, you could say you "stand out" from the crowd!
Lot was included as one of those that God gave to Jesus to die for, John 6:38, and will live an everlasting life in heaven.
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eternally-gratefull
Guest
The post following yours shows (i believe) he was a believer, 2 peter 2, which was a verse i wanted someone to share, by the fact his desires caused him distress
If you look at his life, i would not say he was very righteous in his deeds would you agree?
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eternally-gratefull
Guest
He cant, i just offered the option since people think a believer can some how become and unbeliever and lose salvation
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7seasrekeyed
Guest
well he was not a Christian to begin with, so.....?
God considered Lot righteous or He would not have sent angels to remove him and his family from the city
this was done in response to his uncle Abraham pleading with God if the city could be spared if even 10 righteous men were to be found in it
however, it would seem that not even that many were to be found
God considered Lot righteous or He would not have sent angels to remove him and his family from the city
this was done in response to his uncle Abraham pleading with God if the city could be spared if even 10 righteous men were to be found in it
however, it would seem that not even that many were to be found
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eternally-gratefull
Guest
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7seasrekeyed
Guest
I will add we need to look at what made Lot righteous in order to understand his rescue and maybe that is what you are getting at?
maybe?
maybe?
I really do not get the whole "carnal Christian" thing. Jesus says you are with Him or against Him, He never gave a third option. I think this term "carnal Christian" is really just trying to soften up a term for a false convert really. To give one who doesn't know Him a deceptive peace that can never last. I say this as a former false convert, I liked the idea of Jesus, I repeated the prayer and was even dunked under water, but did not know Him. I know I probably sound judgemental, or maybe even arrogant, but it terrifies me to think how many are just like me sitting in church, they think they are saved but do not know Him. Once you KNOW Him, once you are in Him you are changed forever, not just for a week or two, forever. You can KNOW God then kind of "unknow" Him. That's what I must testify as truth because I know firsthand that we can think we're saved and not be. I just want to warn others for their sakes and even more for His glory. We serve a real life God that changes us in real life and walks with us, oh I praise our Lord!!!
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7seasrekeyed
Guest
Perhaps I'm being pedantic, but Lot was not a "Christian" per se. He was referred to by Peter as a "righteous" man. The term "Christian" was given to followers of Christ after His ascension. Lot, because he was called righteous, COULD be considered like Abel, Noah, Abraham, Job, David, Elijah, Joshua, Moses, Gideon, Deborah, Hezekiah, Esther, Daniel, etc.
Granted, Lot lived as a "carnal Christian" would have lived (as referred to by Paul).
Granted, Lot lived as a "carnal Christian" would have lived (as referred to by Paul).
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eternally-gratefull
Guest
Yes, another point, which shows his adoption as gods son
What was lots response to the command to leave the city, why do you think he had that response? Anyone can answer, this is another point i wanted to see.
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eternally-gratefull
Guest
I want to look at all points, even the bad points, what kind of moral person was lot personally (not just spiritually)
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7seasrekeyed
Guest
interesting discussion requiring some work between the ears
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eternally-gratefull
Guest
You did not answer the question.I really do not get the whole "carnal Christian" thing. Jesus says you are with Him or against Him, He never gave a third option. I think this term "carnal Christian" is really just trying to soften up a term for a false convert really. To give one who doesn't know Him a deceptive peace that can never last. I say this as a former false convert, I liked the idea of Jesus, I repeated the prayer and was even dunked under water, but did not know Him. I know I probably sound judgemental, or maybe even arrogant, but it terrifies me to think how many are just like me sitting in church, they think they are saved but do not know Him. Once you KNOW Him, once you are in Him you are changed forever, not just for a week or two, forever. You can KNOW God then kind of "unknow" Him. That's what I must testify as truth because I know firsthand that we can think we're saved and not be. I just want to warn others for their sakes and even more for His glory. We serve a real life God that changes us in real life and walks with us, oh I praise our Lord!!!
But by this answer i assume you consider lot a false believer and not really saved?
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eternally-gratefull
Guest
Hmm, thanks,, yes you are correct. But that is the jist of my discussion, are their carnal believers, and what do they look like, and as 7 asked, what made them believers.or non believers.Perhaps I'm being pedantic, but Lot was not a "Christian" per se. He was referred to by Peter as a "righteous" man. The term "Christian" was given to followers of Christ after His ascension. Lot, because he was called righteous, COULD be considered like Abel, Noah, Abraham, Job, David, Elijah, Joshua, Moses, Gideon, Deborah, Hezekiah, Esther, Daniel, etc.
Granted, Lot lived as a "carnal Christian" would have lived (as referred to by Paul).
Ie, what was different between him and abraham a man called the father of faith
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7seasrekeyed
Guest
well I just reread the account again in Gen 19 and it seems Lot was reluctant because he asked the angels to spare a certain city that was near Sodom...Zoar...so Lot went there
and then we have this:
29 And it came to pass, when God destroyed the cities of the plain, that God remembered Abraham, and sent Lot out of the midst of the overthrow, when he overthrew the cities in the which Lot dwelt.
30 And Lot went up out of Zoar, and dwelt in the mountain, and his two daughters with him; for he feared to dwell in Zoar: and he dwelt in a cave, he and his two daughters.
so the destruction put fear into Lot and he left Zoar as well
but in v. 29 it states God basically did a favor for Abraham by having Lot 'rescued'
sounds like intercessory prayer on behalf of one person for a person...and I guess someone might consider if that was comparable to Christ taking our place?
let's face it. God sends His wrath on all unrepentant sinners at some point and will again in the future
Lot seems to look like a believer who has a foot in each camp (as the expression goes)
so much to consider
