Galatian Conundrums

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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#21
All good comments and I wouldn`t bother splitting hairs with anyone who believes in just one gospel. There are however two different groups of churches. The difference between the two is law keeping. The circumcision continued to keep the law and the uncircumcision practiced the liberty given to Gentiles in Acts 15. This is all in the Bible.

Any thoughts?
The law never saved anyone.

It is not part of any gospel. Be it jew or gentile

There is one gospel, christ
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#22
Thx. The Bible says there is one everlasting Gospel so I`m not interested in splitting hairs. I mentioned the two gospels simply to try to help point out that there are two groups of churches.

I do believe King James is a pretty good translation though.
Why do you think this passage says their are two groups. The bible says there is one body, not two, united in him
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
37,957
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#23
There are however two different groups of churches. The difference between the two is law keeping. The circumcision continued to keep the law
Galatians 2:11-13
But when Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned. For before certain men came from James, he was eating with the Gentiles; but when they came he drew back and separated himself, fearing the circumcision party. And the rest of the Jews acted hypocritically along with him, so that even Barnabas was led astray by their hypocrisy.

Peter seems to have acted differently when he wasn't experiencing peer pressure from certain hypocrites
 
7

7seasrekeyed

Guest
#24
All good comments and I wouldn`t bother splitting hairs with anyone who believes in just one gospel. There are however two different groups of churches. The difference between the two is law keeping. The circumcision continued to keep the law and the uncircumcision practiced the liberty given to Gentiles in Acts 15. This is all in the Bible.

Any thoughts?
law keeping is not the gospel so not sure what it is you are trying to make a point on?

yes I know the history...but law keeping would consist of far more than circumcision

so what are you saying?
 

RickStudies

Active member
Sep 10, 2019
782
222
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#25
law keeping is not the gospel so not sure what it is you are trying to make a point on?

yes I know the history...but law keeping would consist of far more than circumcision

so what are you saying?
I`m saying that Jesus taught law keeping. His disciples taught law keeping. And what the Bible calls the circumcision were Jewish law keepers.

The uncircumcision group is the one that didn`t keep the Law.
 
7

7seasrekeyed

Guest
#26
Galatians 2:11-13
But when Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned. For before certain men came from James, he was eating with the Gentiles; but when they came he drew back and separated himself, fearing the circumcision party. And the rest of the Jews acted hypocritically along with him, so that even Barnabas was led astray by their hypocrisy.

Peter seems to have acted differently when he wasn't experiencing peer pressure from certain hypocrites
I think Peter operated out of fear from time to time

there was also the denial incident...fear

and fear of the ire of other Jewish leaders

comforting to know that in spite of his weakness in that area, Jesus sought him out, forgave him personally and committed so much to him
 
7

7seasrekeyed

Guest
#27
I`m saying that Jesus taught law keeping. His disciples taught law keeping. And what the Bible calls the circumcision were Jewish law keepers.

The uncircumcision group is the one that didn`t keep the Law.
umm...I think you are throwing us off with the expression 'law keeping', understand there are people that come here and actually do consider keeping the OT law necessary...salvation to them seems to consist of law + Jesus = salvation

when you say keep the law, I think most here think you mean ALL of it but aren't you only actually referencing circumcision?

circumcision was actually a covenant God made with Moses and not a law
 
Jul 23, 2018
12,199
2,775
113
#28
I think Peter operated out of fear from time to time

there was also the denial incident...fear

and fear of the ire of other Jewish leaders

comforting to know that in spite of his weakness in that area, Jesus sought him out, forgave him personally and committed so much to him
The pauline only people preach there are 2 gospels.
We had such an individual in oir mens bible study class.

A bible,ironically, debunks the "2 gospel" baloney
 
7

7seasrekeyed

Guest
#29
The pauline only people preach there are 2 gospels.
We had such an individual in oir mens bible study class.

A bible,ironically, debunks the "2 gospel" baloney

well that's news for me

I have become accustomed to the reverse...people who are Jewish Roots or similar, who want nothing to do with Paul

been quite a few of those folks here over time and prob some still around

go figure
 

RickStudies

Active member
Sep 10, 2019
782
222
43
#30
umm...I think you are throwing us off with the expression 'law keeping', understand there are people that come here and actually do consider keeping the OT law necessary...salvation to them seems to consist of law + Jesus = salvation

when you say keep the law, I think most here think you mean ALL of it but aren't you only actually referencing circumcision?

circumcision was actually a covenant God made with Moses and not a law
Sorry about that. It was a hasty post.

By law keeping I mean the Mosaic Law and the Oral Law which was the Jewish equilivant of the Early chuch fathers in Catholicism.
Circumcision is the term used in the New Testament to descibe the Jewish branch of the early church which included the 12 disciples.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
61,149
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#31
I`m saying that Jesus taught law keeping. His disciples taught law keeping. And what the Bible calls the circumcision were Jewish law keepers.

The uncircumcision group is the one that didn`t keep the Law.
Acts 15:5 Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, “The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to keep the law of Moses.”

6 The apostles and elders met to consider this question. 7 After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: “Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. 8 God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. 9 He did not discriminate between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. 10 Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear? 11 No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.”

Not even the circumcised could bear the weight of the law, and they certainly did not, and do not, keep it.
 

RickStudies

Active member
Sep 10, 2019
782
222
43
#32
The pauline only people preach there are 2 gospels.
We had such an individual in oir mens bible study class.

A bible,ironically, debunks the "2 gospel" baloney
In spite of the existence of Paul only Christians the Bible does make a distinction between the gospel taught to the circumcision and the teachings of Paul to the Gentiles.

It is the very thing that got Paul in trouble, in court and afterward on his way to Rome as a prisoner.
 

RickStudies

Active member
Sep 10, 2019
782
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#33
Acts 15:5 Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, “The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to keep the law of Moses.”

6 The apostles and elders met to consider this question. 7 After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: “Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. 8 God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. 9 He did not discriminate between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. 10 Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear? 11 No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.”

Not even the circumcised could bear the weight of the law, and they certainly did not, and do not, keep it.
Try Acts 21.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
61,149
30,296
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#34
Acts 21
On to Jerusalem
21 After we had torn ourselves away from them, we put out to sea and sailed straight to Kos. The next day we went to Rhodes and from there to Patara. 2 We found a ship crossing over to Phoenicia, went on board and set sail. 3 After sighting Cyprus and passing to the south of it, we sailed on to Syria. We landed at Tyre, where our ship was to unload its cargo. 4 We sought out the disciples there and stayed with them seven days. Through the Spirit they urged Paul not to go on to Jerusalem. 5 When it was time to leave, we left and continued on our way. All of them, including wives and children, accompanied us out of the city, and there on the beach we knelt to pray. 6 After saying goodbye to each other, we went aboard the ship, and they returned home.


7 We continued our voyage from Tyre and landed at Ptolemais, where we greeted the brothers and sisters and stayed with them for a day. 8 Leaving the next day, we reached Caesarea and stayed at the house of Philip the evangelist, one of the Seven. 9 He had four unmarried daughters who prophesied.

10 After we had been there a number of days, a prophet named Agabus came down from Judea. 11 Coming over to us, he took Paul’s belt, tied his own hands and feet with it and said, “The Holy Spirit says, ‘In this way the Jewish leaders in Jerusalem will bind the owner of this belt and will hand him over to the Gentiles.’”

12 When we heard this, we and the people there pleaded with Paul not to go up to Jerusalem. 13 Then Paul answered, “Why are you weeping and breaking my heart? I am ready not only to be bound, but also to die in Jerusalem for the name of the Lord Jesus.” 14 When he would not be dissuaded, we gave up and said, “The Lord’s will be done.”

15 After this, we started on our way up to Jerusalem. 16 Some of the disciples from Caesarea accompanied us and brought us to the home of Mnason, where we were to stay. He was a man from Cyprus and one of the early disciples.

Paul’s Arrival at Jerusalem
17 When we arrived at Jerusalem, the brothers and sisters received us warmly. 18 The next day Paul and the rest of us went to see James, and all the elders were present. 19 Paul greeted them and reported in detail what God had done among the Gentiles through his ministry.


20 When they heard this, they praised God. Then they said to Paul: “You see, brother, how many thousands of Jews have believed, and all of them are zealous for the law. 21 They have been informed that you teach all the Jews who live among the Gentiles to turn away from Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children or live according to our customs. 22 What shall we do? They will certainly hear that you have come, 23 so do what we tell you. There are four men with us who have made a vow. 24 Take these men, join in their purification rites and pay their expenses, so that they can have their heads shaved. Then everyone will know there is no truth in these reports about you, but that you yourself are living in obedience to the law. 25 As for the Gentile believers, we have written to them our decision that they should abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality.”

26 The next day Paul took the men and purified himself along with them. Then he went to the temple to give notice of the date when the days of purification would end and the offering would be made for each of them.

Paul Arrested
27 When the seven days were nearly over, some Jews from the province of Asia saw Paul at the temple. They stirred up the whole crowd and seized him, 28 shouting, “Fellow Israelites, help us! This is the man who teaches everyone everywhere against our people and our law and this place. And besides, he has brought Greeks into the temple and defiled this holy place.” 29 (They had previously seen Trophimus the Ephesian in the city with Paul and assumed that Paul had brought him into the temple.)


30 The whole city was aroused, and the people came running from all directions. Seizing Paul, they dragged him from the temple, and immediately the gates were shut. 31 While they were trying to kill him, news reached the commander of the Roman troops that the whole city of Jerusalem was in an uproar. 32 He at once took some officers and soldiers and ran down to the crowd. When the rioters saw the commander and his soldiers, they stopped beating Paul.

33 The commander came up and arrested him and ordered him to be bound with two chains. Then he asked who he was and what he had done. 34 Some in the crowd shouted one thing and some another, and since the commander could not get at the truth because of the uproar, he ordered that Paul be taken into the barracks. 35 When Paul reached the steps, the violence of the mob was so great he had to be carried by the soldiers. 36 The crowd that followed kept shouting, “Get rid of him!”

Paul Speaks to the Crowd
37 As the soldiers were about to take Paul into the barracks, he asked the commander, “May I say something to you?”


“Do you speak Greek?” he replied. 38 “Aren’t you the Egyptian who started a revolt and led four thousand terrorists out into the wilderness some time ago?”

39 Paul answered, “I am a Jew, from Tarsus in Cilicia, a citizen of no ordinary city. Please let me speak to the people.”

40 After receiving the commander’s permission, Paul stood on the steps and motioned to the crowd. When they were all silent, he said to them in Aramaic:

Please isolate a verse.
 

RickStudies

Active member
Sep 10, 2019
782
222
43
#35
Acts 21
On to Jerusalem
21 After we had torn ourselves away from them, we put out to sea and sailed straight to Kos. The next day we went to Rhodes and from there to Patara. 2 We found a ship crossing over to Phoenicia, went on board and set sail. 3 After sighting Cyprus and passing to the south of it, we sailed on to Syria. We landed at Tyre, where our ship was to unload its cargo. 4 We sought out the disciples there and stayed with them seven days. Through the Spirit they urged Paul not to go on to Jerusalem. 5 When it was time to leave, we left and continued on our way. All of them, including wives and children, accompanied us out of the city, and there on the beach we knelt to pray. 6 After saying goodbye to each other, we went aboard the ship, and they returned home.


7 We continued our voyage from Tyre and landed at Ptolemais, where we greeted the brothers and sisters and stayed with them for a day. 8 Leaving the next day, we reached Caesarea and stayed at the house of Philip the evangelist, one of the Seven. 9 He had four unmarried daughters who prophesied.

10 After we had been there a number of days, a prophet named Agabus came down from Judea. 11 Coming over to us, he took Paul’s belt, tied his own hands and feet with it and said, “The Holy Spirit says, ‘In this way the Jewish leaders in Jerusalem will bind the owner of this belt and will hand him over to the Gentiles.’”

12 When we heard this, we and the people there pleaded with Paul not to go up to Jerusalem. 13 Then Paul answered, “Why are you weeping and breaking my heart? I am ready not only to be bound, but also to die in Jerusalem for the name of the Lord Jesus.” 14 When he would not be dissuaded, we gave up and said, “The Lord’s will be done.”

15 After this, we started on our way up to Jerusalem. 16 Some of the disciples from Caesarea accompanied us and brought us to the home of Mnason, where we were to stay. He was a man from Cyprus and one of the early disciples.

Paul’s Arrival at Jerusalem
17 When we arrived at Jerusalem, the brothers and sisters received us warmly. 18 The next day Paul and the rest of us went to see James, and all the elders were present. 19 Paul greeted them and reported in detail what God had done among the Gentiles through his ministry.


20 When they heard this, they praised God. Then they said to Paul: “You see, brother, how many thousands of Jews have believed, and all of them are zealous for the law. 21 They have been informed that you teach all the Jews who live among the Gentiles to turn away from Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children or live according to our customs. 22 What shall we do? They will certainly hear that you have come, 23 so do what we tell you. There are four men with us who have made a vow. 24 Take these men, join in their purification rites and pay their expenses, so that they can have their heads shaved. Then everyone will know there is no truth in these reports about you, but that you yourself are living in obedience to the law. 25 As for the Gentile believers, we have written to them our decision that they should abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality.”

26 The next day Paul took the men and purified himself along with them. Then he went to the temple to give notice of the date when the days of purification would end and the offering would be made for each of them.

Paul Arrested
27 When the seven days were nearly over, some Jews from the province of Asia saw Paul at the temple. They stirred up the whole crowd and seized him, 28 shouting, “Fellow Israelites, help us! This is the man who teaches everyone everywhere against our people and our law and this place. And besides, he has brought Greeks into the temple and defiled this holy place.” 29 (They had previously seen Trophimus the Ephesian in the city with Paul and assumed that Paul had brought him into the temple.)


30 The whole city was aroused, and the people came running from all directions. Seizing Paul, they dragged him from the temple, and immediately the gates were shut. 31 While they were trying to kill him, news reached the commander of the Roman troops that the whole city of Jerusalem was in an uproar. 32 He at once took some officers and soldiers and ran down to the crowd. When the rioters saw the commander and his soldiers, they stopped beating Paul.

33 The commander came up and arrested him and ordered him to be bound with two chains. Then he asked who he was and what he had done. 34 Some in the crowd shouted one thing and some another, and since the commander could not get at the truth because of the uproar, he ordered that Paul be taken into the barracks. 35 When Paul reached the steps, the violence of the mob was so great he had to be carried by the soldiers. 36 The crowd that followed kept shouting, “Get rid of him!”

Paul Speaks to the Crowd
37 As the soldiers were about to take Paul into the barracks, he asked the commander, “May I say something to you?”


“Do you speak Greek?” he replied. 38 “Aren’t you the Egyptian who started a revolt and led four thousand terrorists out into the wilderness some time ago?”

39 Paul answered, “I am a Jew, from Tarsus in Cilicia, a citizen of no ordinary city. Please let me speak to the people.”

40 After receiving the commander’s permission, Paul stood on the steps and motioned to the crowd. When they were all silent, he said to them in Aramaic:

Please isolate a verse.
In verse 26 Paul takes an expensive vow that he keeps the Mosaic law. Verse 18 indicates that he is making this vow to assure the Apostle James and the other elders (which most likely means other disciples were in the room) to assure them that he is keeping the Law of Moses.

This is at the end of Pauls work as a Missionary right before he is sent to Rome as a prisoner.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
61,149
30,296
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#36
In verse 26 Paul takes an expensive vow that he keeps the Mosaic law. Verse 18 indicates that he is making this vow to assure the Apostle James and the other elders (which most likely means other disciples were in the room) to assure them that he is keeping the Law of Moses.

This is at the end of Pauls work as a Missionary right before he is sent to Rome as a prisoner.
Purifying himself to meet one requirement of the law is not keeping the whole of the law.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
61,149
30,296
113
#38
How do you reconcile Acts 21 verse 24 with Acts 15:10? Also, since the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD, nobody has been able to keep the whole of the law. Some slice and dice it and claim they do, but the law is referred to as a whole, not something to be sliced and diced.
 

RickStudies

Active member
Sep 10, 2019
782
222
43
#39
How do you reconcile Acts 21 verse 24 with Acts 15:10? Also, since the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD, nobody has been able to keep the whole of the law. Some slice and dice it and claim they do, but the law is referred to as a whole, not something to be sliced and diced.
There isn`t a problem with Acts 15. In Acts 15 the Gentiles are released from keeping the Law by the elders. Most Jewish believers continued keeping the Law which is why there are 2 different groups mentioned in the New Testament.
Paul had to keep the Law because he had to maintain himself among both. There is some debate whether he did or not when he was with Gentiles. Some Jews belonged to his churches and they had a choice.
 

RickStudies

Active member
Sep 10, 2019
782
222
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#40
The same situation exists today. There are 350,000 Messianic Jews. They keep Moses law and believe in Jesus.

Mind you, you must distinguish between real Messianic Jews and the Hebrew Roots cult. Hebrew Roots are almost all Gentiles.