Why do Dispensationalists teach Separation Theology?

[UnitedWithChrist]

It is anti Christian by necessity because it is anti- Christ by necessity. JESUS REMAINS A JEW.

WE, have been grafted into the JEWISH Messiah. Replacement theology is directly responsible for not only the Holocaust, but pogroms and Jewish persecution all through history.

The Jews ARE back in the Land. How does that compute with your doctrine?

The misunderstandings of those who committed atrocities is not a legitimate apologetic for your system. I could just as easy discount all of Christianity due to the activities of various Christians throughout time.

I don't believe that the occupation of Palestine by Jews is significant in terms of prophecy, and that it is only through the lenses of dispensationalism that it becomes significant.

 

[Adstar]

They don't believe in "replacement theology". That is a term coined by dispensationalists.

They believe that the Church is the fulfillment of the pattern that was established with Israel. And, this fulfillment is composed of both jews and Gentiles.

That is why I am coining the term "Separation Theology". Dispensationalists believe that there is a separation between Jew and Gentile, and God has separate plans for them.

I quoted verses that disprove this idea. Both are joined in Christ, and become one man (see Ephesians 2).

Does not replacement theology declare that God is finished with the Jews and that God is now working with gentiles and not with the Jews...

How can the church include Jews and Gentiles in the replacement theology stance when that stance says that God is now only dealing with the gentiles ???

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

Where does the Bible say that just before the return of Jesus Jewish sinners will embrace the Gospel message of Jesus on mass and be saved from the judgement to come???

Romans 11, as well as Revelation 1:7.

That would be my position on those verses.

This is a prophecy of Jesus’ return.

Zechariah 12
Daniel 7:13
Mark 14:62
Eze 1:4-28
Rev 14:14

He comes with anguish, wrath and judgment.

Ps 97:2
Zeph 1:15

They who pierced Him
Zech 12:10
John 19:34
John 19:37
John 20:25
John 20:27


Those who crucified him will recognize him as Messiah.

Some would claim that their wailing is due to dread of punishment, but my position is that it is one of repentance.

 

[PennEd]

They don't believe in "replacement theology". That is a term coined by dispensationalists.

They believe that the Church is the fulfillment of the pattern that was established with Israel. And, this fulfillment is composed of both jews and Gentiles.

That is why I am coining the term "Separation Theology". Dispensationalists believe that there is a separation between Jew and Gentile, and God has separate plans for them.

I quoted verses that disprove this idea. Both are joined in Christ, and become one man (see Ephesians 2).

In other words... Replacement Theology!

Very well explained here:

hat is replacement theology / supersessionism? Question: "What is replacement theology / supersessionism?"

Answer: Replacement theology (also known as supersessionism) essentially teaches that the church has replaced Israel in God’s plan. Adherents of replacement theology believe the Jews are no longer God’s chosen people, and God does not have specific future plans for the nation of Israel. Among the different views of the relationship between the church and Israel are the church has replaced Israel (replacement theology), the church is an expansion of Israel (covenant theology), or the church is completely different and distinct from Israel (dispensationalism/premillennialism).

Replacement theology teaches that the church is the replacement for Israel and that the many promises made to Israel in the Bible are fulfilled in the Christian church, not in Israel. The prophecies in Scripture concerning the blessing and restoration of Israel to the Promised Land are spiritualized or allegorized into promises of God’s blessing for the church. Major problems exist with this view, such as the continuing existence of the Jewish people throughout the centuries and especially with the revival of the modern state of Israel. If Israel has been condemned by God and there is no future for the Jewish nation, how do we explain the supernatural survival of the Jewish people over the past 2,000 years despite the many attempts to destroy them? How do we explain why and how Israel reappeared as a nation in the 20th century after not existing for 1,900 years?

The view that Israel and the church are different is clearly taught in the New Testament. Biblically speaking, the church is distinct from Israel, and the terms church and Israel are never to be confused or used interchangeably. We are taught from Scripture that the church is an entirely new creation that came into being on the day of Pentecost and will continue until it is taken to heaven at the rapture (Ephesians 1:9–11; 1 Thessalonians 4:13–17). The church has no relationship to the curses and blessings for Israel. The covenants, promises, and warnings of the Mosaic Covenant were valid only for Israel. Israel has been temporarily set aside in God’s program during these past 2,000 years of dispersion (see Romans 11).

Contrary to replacement theology, dispensationalism teaches that, after the rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:13–18), God will restore Israel as the primary focus of His plan. The first event at this time is the tribulation (Revelation chapters 6–19). The world will be judged for rejecting Christ, while Israel is prepared through the trials of the great tribulation for the second coming of the Messiah. Then, when Christ does return to the earth at the end of the tribulation, Israel will be ready to receive Him. The remnant of Israel who survive the tribulation will be saved, and the Lord will establish His kingdom on this earth with Jerusalem as its capital. With Christ reigning as King, Israel will be the leading nation, and representatives from all nations will come to Jerusalem to honor and worship the King—Jesus Christ. The church will return with Christ and will reign with Him for a literal thousand years (Revelation 20:1–5).

Both the Old Testament and the New Testament support a premillennial/dispensational understanding of God’s plan for Israel. The strongest support for premillennialism is found in the clear teaching of Revelation 20:1–7, where it says six times that Christ’s kingdom will last 1,000 years. After the tribulation the Lord will return and establish His kingdom with the nation of Israel, Christ will reign over the whole earth, and Israel will be the leader of the nations. The church will reign with Him for a literal thousand years. The church has not replaced Israel in God's plan. While God may be focusing His attention primarily on the church in this dispensation of grace, God has not forgotten Israel and will one day restore Israel to His intended role as the nation He has chosen (Romans 11).

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

Does not replacement theology declare that God is finished with the Jews and that God is now working with gentiles and not with the Jews...

How can the church include Jews and Gentiles in the replacement theology stance when that stance says that God is now only dealing with the gentiles ???

There is always a remnant of Jews that are believers. See Romans 9-11. Replacement theology is a slanderous term because non-dispensationalists believe that the Church is the fulfillment of Israel, and is comprised of both Jews and Gentiles.

God isn't only dealing with Gentiles now anyways. Jewish believers would not appreciate that view. God is working with both Jews and Gentiles.

I believe there is a partial hardening of some individuals, though, and they will welcome Christ at his return. Additionally, they will be glorified and receive resurrection bodies just like other believers. If I understand dispensationalism correctly, most dispensationalists claim that they will not receive glorified bodies, but will enter into the Millennium in fleshly bodies.

By the way, I don't believe in this "postponement theory" of dispensationalism. They teach that the kingdom of God could have started at Christ's first advent, but because the Jews rejected him, there is a postponement period when Gentiles are allowed to come in.

In their theology, they actually believe the Jews could have accepted Jesus as Messiah, and then the atonement on the Cross would not have occurred. Jesus would have reigned as Messiah at that point in time.

But, because this didn't occur, there is an opportunity for Gentiles to be saved.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

OK..so I outlined questions in regards to this.

Which promise are you talking about?

You do not know the abrahamic covenant?
What was promised?

Off the top of my head
Land
A king
Peace
They would be a special nation

How much of this relates to the church?

Was it fulfilled at any point in the past?

It does not matter, it was an eternal covenant.

Was it conditional upon obedience?

No, god said i will, he did not say if you do this, i will, (he even put abraham in a deep sleep so abraham could not say a word) in non of god ds promises to abraham Issac and jacob was any conditions given, they were not gven until mosaic, but mosaic did not overtak the abrahamic, it was just a covenant given for them to enjoy what was rightly theirs, it even said if they disobay god will let enemies live in their land, yet even then f they tepent god will remember the covenant

Is it fulfilled in Christ, and does it apply to those who are spiritual descendants of Abraham?

Why has the church never lied in palestin in the peace god promised? Oh thats right, the covenant did not belong to them.

I doubt you have been attacked much by amillennials. They usually don't bother to discuss this topic with dispensationalists due to their nastiness. I have been warned not to bring this topic up by others, because of the amount of vitriole it generates.

Lol, dude, there are a few well known ones who have been banned for their behavior,

Once again, they state i am unsaved because i teach duel covenent theology, which is a lie, while some who hold to dispnsational thinking do, most do not, even scofield rejected dual covenant theology

Instead of attacking i think you need to start listening

However, I can't have intelligent conversations on this forum without mentioning it in some conversations.

You can not have an intelligent conversation if all you do is bash people, first you need to learn what they believe.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

In other words... Replacement Theology!

Very well explained here:

hat is replacement theology / supersessionism? Question: "What is replacement theology / supersessionism?"

Answer: Replacement theology (also known as supersessionism) essentially teaches that the church has replaced Israel in God’s plan. Adherents of replacement theology believe the Jews are no longer God’s chosen people, and God does not have specific future plans for the nation of Israel. Among the different views of the relationship between the church and Israel are the church has replaced Israel (replacement theology), the church is an expansion of Israel (covenant theology), or the church is completely different and distinct from Israel (dispensationalism/premillennialism).

Replacement theology teaches that the church is the replacement for Israel and that the many promises made to Israel in the Bible are fulfilled in the Christian church, not in Israel. The prophecies in Scripture concerning the blessing and restoration of Israel to the Promised Land are spiritualized or allegorized into promises of God’s blessing for the church. Major problems exist with this view, such as the continuing existence of the Jewish people throughout the centuries and especially with the revival of the modern state of Israel. If Israel has been condemned by God and there is no future for the Jewish nation, how do we explain the supernatural survival of the Jewish people over the past 2,000 years despite the many attempts to destroy them? How do we explain why and how Israel reappeared as a nation in the 20th century after not existing for 1,900 years?

The view that Israel and the church are different is clearly taught in the New Testament. Biblically speaking, the church is distinct from Israel, and the terms church and Israel are never to be confused or used interchangeably. We are taught from Scripture that the church is an entirely new creation that came into being on the day of Pentecost and will continue until it is taken to heaven at the rapture (Ephesians 1:9–11; 1 Thessalonians 4:13–17). The church has no relationship to the curses and blessings for Israel. The covenants, promises, and warnings of the Mosaic Covenant were valid only for Israel. Israel has been temporarily set aside in God’s program during these past 2,000 years of dispersion (see Romans 11).

Contrary to replacement theology, dispensationalism teaches that, after the rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:13–18), God will restore Israel as the primary focus of His plan. The first event at this time is the tribulation (Revelation chapters 6–19). The world will be judged for rejecting Christ, while Israel is prepared through the trials of the great tribulation for the second coming of the Messiah. Then, when Christ does return to the earth at the end of the tribulation, Israel will be ready to receive Him. The remnant of Israel who survive the tribulation will be saved, and the Lord will establish His kingdom on this earth with Jerusalem as its capital. With Christ reigning as King, Israel will be the leading nation, and representatives from all nations will come to Jerusalem to honor and worship the King—Jesus Christ. The church will return with Christ and will reign with Him for a literal thousand years (Revelation 20:1–5).

Both the Old Testament and the New Testament support a premillennial/dispensational understanding of God’s plan for Israel. The strongest support for premillennialism is found in the clear teaching of Revelation 20:1–7, where it says six times that Christ’s kingdom will last 1,000 years. After the tribulation the Lord will return and establish His kingdom with the nation of Israel, Christ will reign over the whole earth, and Israel will be the leader of the nations. The church will reign with Him for a literal thousand years. The church has not replaced Israel in God's plan. While God may be focusing His attention primarily on the church in this dispensation of grace, God has not forgotten Israel and will one day restore Israel to His intended role as the nation He has chosen (Romans 11).

My point is that "replacement theology" is a term that is coined by dispensationalists as propaganda. The reality is that non-dispensationalists believe in "fulfillment theology"...that Israel was the pattern, and the Church and Christ are the fulfillment. The Church is composed of Jews and Gentiles.

I would re-coin their theology as "Separation Theology" and point to the fact that they don't understand union with Christ. That's the source of their issues.

 

[UnderGrace]

My point is that "replacement theology" is a term that is coined by dispensationalists as propaganda. The reality is that non-dispensationalists believe in "fulfillment theology"...that Israel was the pattern, and the Church and Christ are the fulfillment. The Church is composed of Jews and Gentiles.

I would re-coin their theology as "Separation Theology" and point to the fact that they don't understand union with Christ. That's the source of their issues.

An emotionally laden term to stifle dialogue and understanding as always like "greasy grace" and the many others....

 

[PennEd]

My point is that "replacement theology" is a term that is coined by dispensationalists as propaganda. The reality is that non-dispensationalists believe in "fulfillment theology"...that Israel was the pattern, and the Church and Christ are the fulfillment. The Church is composed of Jews and Gentiles.

I would re-coin their theology as "Separation Theology" and point to the fact that they don't understand union with Christ. That's the source of their issues.

I mean... you can label it whatever you like... It's STILL replacement theology. And relies on many private interpretations using allegory. Something we are specifically told not to do.

 

[PennEd]

An emotionally laden term to stifle dialogue and understanding as always like "greasy grace" and the many others....

Dialog away! OSAS is considered by some as a derogatory term for eternal security, but it doesn't bother me at all. because I know it's true.

That old adage of "truth hurts" applies with the .replacement theologists.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

You do not know the abrahamic covenant?
What was promised?

Off the top of my head
Land
A king
Peace
They would be a special nation

How much of this relates to the church?




It does not matter, it was an eternal covenant.


No, god said i will, he did not say if you do this, i will, (he even put abraham in a deep sleep so abraham could not say a word) in non of god ds promises to abraham Issac and jacob was any conditions given, they were not gven until mosaic, but mosaic did not overtak the abrahamic, it was just a covenant given for them to enjoy what was rightly theirs, it even said if they disobay god will let enemies live in their land, yet even then f they tepent god will remember the covenant



Why has the church never livd in palestin in the eace god promised? Oh thats right, the covenant did not belong to them.




Lol, dude, there are a fe well known ones who have been banned for their behavior,

Once again, they state i am unsaved because i teach duel covenent theology, which is a lie, whil some who hold to dispnsational thinking do, most do not, even scofi ld rejected dual covenant theology

Instead of attacking i think you need to start listening


You can not have an intelligent conversation if all you do is bash people, first you beed to learn what they believe.

Concerning the land promises, I have already mentioned them. Abraham and his descendants are given not only the land of Palestine, but the entire world according to Romans 4.

Because of union with Christ, believers become heirs to these promises.

I can see by your explanations that you can't clearly enunciate all the promises made to Abraham.

The kingship promise is fulfilled in Jesus, who is David's descendant. It terminates with him. But, this isn't part of the Abrahamic covenant. It is part of the Davidic Covenant.

Again, I suggest that you ask yourselves these questions:

1. What is the promise under examination?
2. Was the promise unconditional, or did it depend on performance?
3. Was it fulfilled at some point in the past in ancient Israel?
4. Was it fulfilled in Jesus and the Church?

Identify the verses where the promise is made for me first. Otherwise, we are working with a nebulous claim to a promise.

If you guys can't identify a specific promise, I can't answer your question.

 

[kaylagrl]

The misunderstandings of those who committed atrocities is not a legitimate apologetic for your system. I could just as easy discount all of Christianity due to the activities of various Christians throughout time.

I don't believe that the occupation of Palestine by Jews is significant in terms of prophecy, and that it is only through the lenses of dispensationalism that it becomes significant.

What do you mean by this comment plz?

 

[azamzimtoti]

It is anti Christian by necessity because it is anti- Christ by necessity. JESUS REMAINS A JEW.

How can it be anti-Christian when the scriptures said the new nation would be comprised of REAL Jews and Gentiles:

(1 Pet 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should show forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light)

Lets not forget that the physical nation was once called "a peculiar people" - not any longer, this is replacement by God not man.

Replacement theology is directly responsible for not only the Holocaust, but pogroms and Jewish persecution all through history.

No it wasn't, "replacement theology" is a pejorative term invented by dispensationalists aimed at it's critics.

The Jews ARE back in the Land. How does that compute with your doctrine?

They aren't Jews, Paul and Isaiah states who the Jews are.

(Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh)

(Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God)

It's dispensationalists who promote replacement theology by claiming that those who are claiming to be Jews will replace the blood bought body/nation of Christ comprised of all believers from all nations.

I've no doubt the charge of anti-antisemitism will be leveled as well while forgetting what Isaiah and Jesus said:

(Isa 65:15 And ye shall leave your name for a curse unto my chosen: for the Lord GOD shall slay thee, and call his servants by another name)

(Mat 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.)

(Mat 8:11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.)

(Mat 8:12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.)

(Gal 4:30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.)

 

[7seasrekeyed]

you would likely find that Premillennial Dispensationalists are the most nasty, in terms of insults

let's see now....says this and then waits for the insults..which will actually be Dispensationalists taking the above as the actual insult

In fact, one premillennial dispensationalist on this forum told me I was accursed for my position on this issue

why don't you just address that particular individual instead of declaring a jihad on every Dispensationalist?

Galatians 3:28-29 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise.

I would suggest that applies to those who are saved NOW and does not support replacement theology. Gentiles...non Jews...are GRAFTED in

Well, this isn't true. There is only one people of God, Jews and Gentiles together. God doesn't have a separate plan for Jews, and a separate plan for Gentiles.

of course He doesn't. Jesus is as much the Messiah to Gentiles as He is of the Jews. however, it is a bad misunderstanding to insist that means there is no timing in God's plan or unfolding of that same plan

Romans 4:13 13 For the promise to Abraham and his offspring that he would be heir of the world did not come through the law but through the righteousness of faith.

a literal translation meaning the actual whole world would be the least interpretation of that particular verse

the most widely accepted interpretation would mean the heir refers to faith, as Abraham's righteousness was faith. note, this promise was made BEFORE the law and therefore illustrates the actual means to salvation through FAITH...meaning all who accept Christ

again, this does not negate God's promises to Israel. we know that it is actually Christ who inherits the world and not Abraham

the expression 'the world' most often refers to Gentiles

As I have studied the doctrine of union in Christ heavily, I believe that dispensationalism is abhorrent to God due to this artificial separation of God's people.

actually it would appear that your post indicates the actual separation. the use of the word abhorrent is further insult to your opening statements. you may have strong views, that does not create an abhorrent objection on the part of God to those who do not see things as you do. that is ridiculous and sorry, but God is not on your side in the fashion you seem to indicate you believe that He may be

In fact, I think union with Christ is a sorely neglected topic in the Church, and this neglect has contributed to dispensational doctrine.

The sad thing is that within the USA, dispensationalism is the norm because it is taught by sects that have been heavily involved in evangelizing.

however you describe yourself as an Evangelical in your bio

interestingly, we are joined with Christ when we belong to Him. you would not be a Calvinist by any chance would you?

are position in Christ...that is our righteousness IN Him, is of course a central theme and I believe you do not see it as presented in scripture by the very wording in which you express 'union with Christ'...which Calvin believed was the most important them in the NT


NOTE: it seems I will never be disappointed in the various and sundry ways scripture, actually simple to understand for the most part, will be taken to mean other than what it plainly states

this does sound like Calvins teaching though

 

[Melach]

OK..so I outlined questions in regards to this.

Which promise are you talking about?

Was it fulfilled at any point in the past?

Was it conditional upon obedience?

Is it fulfilled in Christ, and does it apply to those who are spiritual descendants of Abraham?

I doubt you have been attacked much by amillennials. They usually don't bother to discuss this topic with dispensationalists due to their nastiness. I have been warned not to bring this topic up by others, because of the amount of vitriole it generates.

However, I can't have intelligent conversations on this forum without mentioning it in some conversations.

wanna hear a joke? amillennial prophecy conference.

nothing to talk about. there is no prophecy lol. they do believe Jesus is coming back soon. views of antichrist being a real person in the future vary, some say its past some say its future.

can you tell me bro are you a calvinist? the way you type makes me think you are. way i mean is big words and scholarly sounding.

 

[7seasrekeyed]

What do you mean by this comment plz?

hit the nail right there IMO

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

I mean... you can label it whatever you like... It's STILL replacement theology. And relies on many private interpretations using allegory. Something we are specifically told not to do.

Wrong.

Scripture is organic. It began with the Fall and proceeds to a culmination in the New Heavens and the New Earth.

Additionally, you are using the word "allegory" in a deceptive manner. Allegory was used by some including Origen to interpret Scripture. Recognizing shadows and types from the OT is not allegory.

By the way, John MacArthur claimed there are no allegories in Scripture. He is wrong on this. Galatians 4 uses the allegory of Hagar and Sarah.

Non-

wanna hear a joke? amillennial prophecy conference.

nothing to talk about. there is no prophecy lol. they do believe Jesus is coming back soon. views of antichrist being a real person in the future vary, some say its past some say its future.

can you tell me bro are you a calvinist? the way you type makes me think you are. way i mean is big words and scholarly sounding.

I don't like the word Calvinist. I'm a monergist, though. I believe God is sovereign over all things. I am definitely in tune with the Reformation.

Pretty funny joke

I used to belong to a group that was similar to dispensationalists in their obsession with prophecy. One of their favorite games was "pin the tail on the Anti-Christ". I can't remember all the potential candidates, but I remember that Franz Josef Strauss was one..then he died...and Ronald Wilson Reagan (6 letters each name) was one..then he died...yada yada yada.

No more of that nonsense

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

What do you mean by this comment plz?

I don't hold the position that the occupation of Palestine by Jewish individuals can be used to infer that the events of Matthew 24 are being fulfilled like many dispensationalists claim.

Especially since a "generation" is 40 years and Palestine has been occupied by Jews since 1948.

Some dispensationalists claim that the events of Matthew 24 would be fulfilled within one generation of 1948....it's already gone past that.

Please note that I have no issue with the nation of Israel or Jews.

Those who are born again are brothers in Christ.

My main issue with dispensationalism is a claim that Jew and Gentile are separate. They are one in Christ, as Ephesians 2, Galatians 3 says.

Dispensationalism fundamentally denies this unity.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

I mean... you can label it whatever you like... It's STILL replacement theology. And relies on many private interpretations using allegory. Something we are specifically told not to do.

Wrong.

Scripture is organic. It began with the Fall and proceeds to a culmination in the New Heavens and the New Earth.

Additionally, you are using the word "allegory" in a deceptive manner. Allegory was used by some including Origen to interpret Scripture. Recognizing shadows and types from the OT is not allegory.

By the way, John MacArthur claimed there are no allegories in Scripture. He is wrong on this. Galatians 4 uses the allegory of Hagar and Sarah.

Non-dispensationalist theology doesn't depend on allegories, but even if it did, Paul himself recognized an allegory in the OT.

However, I will simply state that a dispensationalist will violate his own rules when it suits his purpose, in order to maintain his theology. I've seen them do it.

And, regarding John MacArthur, I like him for some things and have his study bible, but I know that he's a dispensationalist and I filter his interpretations to avoid his dispensationalist views.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

Dialog away! OSAS is considered by some as a derogatory term for eternal security, but it doesn't bother me at all. because I know it's true.

That old adage of "truth hurts" applies with the .replacement theologists.

I don't agree with Once Saved Always Saved but I do believe in eternal security.

OSAS does have a negative connotation because it doesn't acknowledge that the believer is united with Christ, and this union produces fruit. Some view OSAS as claiming that believers don't necessarily bear fruit. I wouldn't hold that view. All believers bear some fruit, no matter how small....30, 60, 100 fold.