Did Jesus ever tell us that we no longer need to keep the law of Moses?
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Because it testifies of Him, John 5:39, and it condemns everyone under it, John 5:45, Galatians 3:19, Galatians 3:22, Romans 11:32, Romans 7:13, etc.
Therefore it testifies of the necessity of Him and the sufficiency of Him, the law itself being wholly insufficient, Romans 8:3, Galatians 3:21, Matthew 5:20, Romans 3:21, Philippians 3:9 etc
Therefore it testifies of the necessity of Him and the sufficiency of Him, the law itself being wholly insufficient, Romans 8:3, Galatians 3:21, Matthew 5:20, Romans 3:21, Philippians 3:9 etc
Romans 9:30-32
30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
This may require more discernment than legalists and judaizers are capable of, but I'm going to ask anyway;
Which are the ones here in Romans 9 that keep the commandments of God, those who have attained to Righteousness or those who have not? Those who work at keeping the 10 commandments or those who have faith in Christ?
See, its an either/or thing. Not sure the carnal mind can grasp it. Not sure if it even wants to.
Galatians 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
This may require more discernment than legalists and judaizers are capable of, but I'm going to ask anyway;
Which are the ones here in Romans 9 that keep the commandments of God, those who have attained to Righteousness or those who have not? Those who work at keeping the 10 commandments or those who have faith in Christ?
See, its an either/or thing. Not sure the carnal mind can grasp it. Not sure if it even wants to.
Galatians 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
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hmm...Something just came to mind that may or may not help some folks see what we mean. I know Hebrew words aren't exactly the same as their Greek counterparts, but let's consider the following two passages:
Nehemiah 10:29 [Berean]
hereby join with their noble brothers and commit themselves with a sworn oath to follow the Law of God given through His servant Moses and to carefully obey all the commandments, ordinances/judgments, and statutes of the LORD our Lord.
So The FULL Law to follow has:
- Commandments
- Statutes
- Ordinances/Judgments
----
...now let's read what Paul said...
Colossians 2:14
Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
So Paul says Christ - the Son of the Almighty; the living God in the flesh, Himself - blotted out the Ordinances/judgments. He removed them, not anyone else. So just following basic reasoning from what we're reading...
After Christ, The FULL Law to follow has:
- Commandments
- Statutes
- Ordinances/Judgments
----
Even if we don't know what ordinances/judgments specifically are right now, from these two passages isn't it reasonable to consider that something like ^above^ could've happened to The Law, based on the fewest assumptions?
Matthew 5:18-19
18 For, omein, truly I say to you, until Shomayim and haaretz pass away, not one yod, not one tag (ornamental flourish), will pass from the Torah until everything is accomplished.
19 Therefore, whoever annuls one of the least of these mitzvot (divine commandments given by Hashem to Moshe Rebbenu) and so teaches Bnei Adam, shall be called katon (least) in the Malchut HaShomayim; but whoever practices and teaches them, this one will be called gadol (great) in the Malchut HaShomayim.
Would you say that ordinances and judgements are part of Torah???
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The Lord said in Matthew 5, regarding the law you are talking about (the 10 commandments);
Be Perfect as your Father in Heaven is Perfect.
You want to place yourself under that law then that is fine. But perfection is its requirement.
Not, try really hard and do your best. Perfection. Otherwise, the law is condemnation and death.
2 Corinthians 3:7-9
7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
The problem with the legalists and Judaizers position is that they TRY to separate the law into sections in order to place themselves (and everyone else) under the 10 commandments.
2 Corinthians 3 should end that. If they could just understand scripture.
Hint for you; It is NOT the ministration of Condemnation and Death that is written on our hearts when we come to Christ. It is Gods Law that is written on our hearts.
It is the Ministration of Righteousness that is written on our hearts when we come to Christ.
Be Perfect as your Father in Heaven is Perfect.
You want to place yourself under that law then that is fine. But perfection is its requirement.
Not, try really hard and do your best. Perfection. Otherwise, the law is condemnation and death.
2 Corinthians 3:7-9
7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
The problem with the legalists and Judaizers position is that they TRY to separate the law into sections in order to place themselves (and everyone else) under the 10 commandments.
2 Corinthians 3 should end that. If they could just understand scripture.
Hint for you; It is NOT the ministration of Condemnation and Death that is written on our hearts when we come to Christ. It is Gods Law that is written on our hearts.
It is the Ministration of Righteousness that is written on our hearts when we come to Christ.
I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I make much of my ministry in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches. If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either. Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. Romans 11:13-22
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SO that you will know you CAN'T do it and that you need Supernatural Help.
Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
Mark 10:20-21
20 And he answered and said unto him, Master, all these have I observed from my youth.
21 Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.
Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
Mark 10:20-21
20 And he answered and said unto him, Master, all these have I observed from my youth.
21 Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.
Not too good.
I was trying to be Perfect before God as God is Perfect.
The Lord DOES say to do that. So when all the workers toot their little horns I like to remind them of that.
It shouldn't be funny but the workers pretty much condemn their own selves and don't even know it.
It was pretty awesome coming to Christ and being delivered from the law that I was under. Going from Death into Life.
I was trying to be Perfect before God as God is Perfect.
The Lord DOES say to do that. So when all the workers toot their little horns I like to remind them of that.
It shouldn't be funny but the workers pretty much condemn their own selves and don't even know it.
It was pretty awesome coming to Christ and being delivered from the law that I was under. Going from Death into Life.
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Sorry Grandpa, but I think there are two different conversations going on this thread and I got mixed up which one. I think the posts are asking about the Law so people are just posting replies on it, not because they are banging on about the Law or anything. (Actually feels odd calling you Grandpa as that was my Dads name and I am burying him tomorrow ....he died and I miss him.)
Anyhows, in answer to your question, yes Jesus fulfilled the law.
But I think there are two points of view being asked here on here that collide with one another (the thread questions I mean not anyone's view of the Law!)
For instance, if one was looking at the Law from a personal point of view, you could say something like, "if you don't speed in your car anyway you are not bothered about getting any speeding tickets". You agree that it is not a good idea to speed in the first place you are not going to do it. That is why some people do not pay attention to the Law so much as they are not in fear of it nor do they worry about it. Even if we broke a Law by mistake, Jesus fulfilled the law and the sacrifice by saving grace. But some people fear the Law and go on about the Law all the time as they skirt around the edge of it, or try and get near the boundaries of it. Some folk even put their head right up and look over the line of it, to see how they can get away with it. People try to avoid tax for instance or “get around it” so they skirt the law as they are thinking of ways to get around it. I think some on this thread are trying to point out that there are some who try and make out they are justified by keeping the Law because they are always pointing to it saying "look at me and my good works, I keep the law, see how righteous I am!". These are not justified in any way as they are self righteous.
In the same way, most people don't have to be worried or even consider the law of "thou shalt not murder" as they wouldn't even dream of doing such a thing. Even before in times of old, King David repented of his time with Bathsheba/Uriah but he got forgiveness from God even so.
In another point of view, from a wider perspective, is that there are those who try and get around the law in whatever way possible (park where they like, ignore traffic codes, speed, or even murder/'steal all the time) and are just worried about the penalty of the law. It seems a matter for the heart and the mind and even an idea to “break the law” starts in the heart. You cannot murder or steal from someone unless you get the idea in your heart first. For instance, my Dad (Grandpa) was overpaid money back to him from a supermarket once twice. He gave the money back in cash as he said "its dishonest to keep it". The supermarket manager said to him, "well not many people would do that Sir" but my Dad said "well its not right to keep it". He couldn't do something that went against his conscience or his heart. He always taught me among other things, always listen to your conscience. (The heart). Some are hard hearted and do no such thing.
But if you don't even do these things in the first place (and Jesus didn't) then these laws do not apply to you anyhow. Jesus didn't keep pointing at himself saying "look and me look at me I never break the Law" . He walked the life of perfection by example.
So on the matter of the Law, I think this thread has two different conversations going on. If you don't break the law anyway it doesn't matter. If you have it in your heart that these things are morally wrong, it wouldn't occur to you to even do so or even spend time thinking about it. Loving your neighbour means you cannot steal from him, murder him etc and loving God surely would want to make you follow his righteousness. This is the fulfillment. Being a living stone/example as Jesus was. In other words, loving God, loving your brother, loving your neighbour all fulfill the Law.
Two commandments that Jesus did give are below. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
Matt 22.
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second [is] like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
or
1 John
20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?
21 And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.
Anyhows, in answer to your question, yes Jesus fulfilled the law.
But I think there are two points of view being asked here on here that collide with one another (the thread questions I mean not anyone's view of the Law!)
For instance, if one was looking at the Law from a personal point of view, you could say something like, "if you don't speed in your car anyway you are not bothered about getting any speeding tickets". You agree that it is not a good idea to speed in the first place you are not going to do it. That is why some people do not pay attention to the Law so much as they are not in fear of it nor do they worry about it. Even if we broke a Law by mistake, Jesus fulfilled the law and the sacrifice by saving grace. But some people fear the Law and go on about the Law all the time as they skirt around the edge of it, or try and get near the boundaries of it. Some folk even put their head right up and look over the line of it, to see how they can get away with it. People try to avoid tax for instance or “get around it” so they skirt the law as they are thinking of ways to get around it. I think some on this thread are trying to point out that there are some who try and make out they are justified by keeping the Law because they are always pointing to it saying "look at me and my good works, I keep the law, see how righteous I am!". These are not justified in any way as they are self righteous.
In the same way, most people don't have to be worried or even consider the law of "thou shalt not murder" as they wouldn't even dream of doing such a thing. Even before in times of old, King David repented of his time with Bathsheba/Uriah but he got forgiveness from God even so.
In another point of view, from a wider perspective, is that there are those who try and get around the law in whatever way possible (park where they like, ignore traffic codes, speed, or even murder/'steal all the time) and are just worried about the penalty of the law. It seems a matter for the heart and the mind and even an idea to “break the law” starts in the heart. You cannot murder or steal from someone unless you get the idea in your heart first. For instance, my Dad (Grandpa) was overpaid money back to him from a supermarket once twice. He gave the money back in cash as he said "its dishonest to keep it". The supermarket manager said to him, "well not many people would do that Sir" but my Dad said "well its not right to keep it". He couldn't do something that went against his conscience or his heart. He always taught me among other things, always listen to your conscience. (The heart). Some are hard hearted and do no such thing.
But if you don't even do these things in the first place (and Jesus didn't) then these laws do not apply to you anyhow. Jesus didn't keep pointing at himself saying "look and me look at me I never break the Law" . He walked the life of perfection by example.
So on the matter of the Law, I think this thread has two different conversations going on. If you don't break the law anyway it doesn't matter. If you have it in your heart that these things are morally wrong, it wouldn't occur to you to even do so or even spend time thinking about it. Loving your neighbour means you cannot steal from him, murder him etc and loving God surely would want to make you follow his righteousness. This is the fulfillment. Being a living stone/example as Jesus was. In other words, loving God, loving your brother, loving your neighbour all fulfill the Law.
Two commandments that Jesus did give are below. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
Matt 22.
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second [is] like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
or
1 John
20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?
21 And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.
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hey @Heyjude, no one in the Bible ever talked about the Law as though there's 3 parts and you can delete 1 or 2 of them.
no one, ever.
God speaks of the whole law as one law.
Moses speaks of the whole law as one law.
Jesus speaks of the whole law as one law.
Paul speaks of the whole law as one law.
the council in Jerusalem speaks of the whole law as one law.
James speaks of the whole law as one law.
you speak of the law as parts you can selectively ignore.
that's not scriptural. not even in the least. it is however, very common these days.
you said you trust Jesus before anyone else. well, He said 'not one jot' -- so maybe you ought to do some thinking about that.
righteousness does not change. the believer is not under law, but grace: not because even a single dot of the law is removed, but because the believer has died with Christ, and is hidden in Christ, and the law, which is the power of sin, has no jurisdiction whatsoever over the dead.
you'll have plenty of people giving you thumbs up in this thread, and telling you how nice you are and how much they like what you say, tho, if you want to continue in hypocrisy. there are number of people regularly posting who claim to be under the law, and claim to be keeping it, all the while ignoring 2/3 of it ((let's just stick with the 2/3 number until we can get a more accurate estimate)). they love to have more converts.
i hope you enjoy your time with us either way
no one, ever.
God speaks of the whole law as one law.
Moses speaks of the whole law as one law.
Jesus speaks of the whole law as one law.
Paul speaks of the whole law as one law.
the council in Jerusalem speaks of the whole law as one law.
James speaks of the whole law as one law.
you speak of the law as parts you can selectively ignore.
that's not scriptural. not even in the least. it is however, very common these days.
you said you trust Jesus before anyone else. well, He said 'not one jot' -- so maybe you ought to do some thinking about that.
righteousness does not change. the believer is not under law, but grace: not because even a single dot of the law is removed, but because the believer has died with Christ, and is hidden in Christ, and the law, which is the power of sin, has no jurisdiction whatsoever over the dead.
you'll have plenty of people giving you thumbs up in this thread, and telling you how nice you are and how much they like what you say, tho, if you want to continue in hypocrisy. there are number of people regularly posting who claim to be under the law, and claim to be keeping it, all the while ignoring 2/3 of it ((let's just stick with the 2/3 number until we can get a more accurate estimate)). they love to have more converts.
i hope you enjoy your time with us either way
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What would your advice be Grandpa, when children have a hard time of it and don't know what to say to their peers? There is a lot of AAs in England (they are called Angry Atheist's) in England as they are sort of shaking their fist at the sky and spitting in the face of anyone who mentions the G word. For instance, a 16 year old who is told " I suppose you think you are perfect do you" or even a teacher that says "so you think you are ABOVE the law do you!". Peter Hitchins wrote a book on these folk. (Brother of Christopher Hitchens) called Rage at God. He was an ex marxist turned Christian and I guess he had a hard time from his brother but is one of those who wasn't too proud and vain to realise the truth. I haven't read it, but it is worrying when he says that Britain has no Christianity left and stuff. What do children do to deal with these questions and hassle?