Not By Works

[VCO]

does anyone know of any once saved always saved / eternal security of the believer quotes from the early church fathers? good way to talk with catholics. they like those guys almost more than bible i feel sometimes.

Here is a site that has a few of those quotes from Early Church Fathers, such as:

Salvation by faith alone

1. Clement of Rome (?-110), "And we who through his will have been called in Christ Jesus are justified, not by ourselves, or through our wisdom or understanding or godliness, or the works that we have done in holiness of heart, but by faith, by which all men from the beginning have been justified by Almighty God, to whom be glory world without end. Amen." (First Clement, 32-33).

Justin Martyr (100-165), "For Abraham was declared by God to be righteous, not on account of circumcision, but on account of faith. For before he was circumcised the following statement was made regarding him: ‘Abraham believed God, and it was accounted unto him for righteousness.'" (Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho 92)

https://carm.org/early-church-fathers-salvation

You can find some JEWELS when you look through the quotes of very early Catholics, like:

St. John Cassian 360 - 435 : The thief who received the kingdom of heaven, though not as the reward of virtue, is a true witness to the fact that salvation . . . . .
The thief who received the kingdom of heaven, though not as the reward of virtue, is a true witness to the fact that salvation is ours through the grace and mercy of God.


Here is that site: http://www.orthodoxchurchquotes.com/tag/holy-fathers/

 

[UnderGrace]

Here is a site that has a few of those quotes from Early Church Fathers, such as:

Salvation by faith alone

1. Clement of Rome (?-110), "And we who through his will have been called in Christ Jesus are justified, not by ourselves, or through our wisdom or understanding or godliness, or the works that we have done in holiness of heart, but by faith, by which all men from the beginning have been justified by Almighty God, to whom be glory world without end. Amen." (First Clement, 32-33).

Justin Martyr (100-165), "For Abraham was declared by God to be righteous, not on account of circumcision, but on account of faith. For before he was circumcised the following statement was made regarding him: ‘Abraham believed God, and it was accounted unto him for righteousness.'" (Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho 92)

https://carm.org/early-church-fathers-salvation

You can find some JEWELS when you look through the quotes of very early Catholics, like:

St. John Cassian 360 - 435 : The thief who received the kingdom of heaven, though not as the reward of virtue, is a true witness to the fact that salvation . . . . .
The thief who received the kingdom of heaven, though not as the reward of virtue, is a true witness to the fact that salvation is ours through the grace and mercy of God.


Here is that site: http://www.orthodoxchurchquotes.com/tag/holy-fathers/

Yes, but not directly a statement on OSAS.

 

[Melach]

Here is a site that has a few of those quotes from Early Church Fathers, such as:

Salvation by faith alone

1. Clement of Rome (?-110), "And we who through his will have been called in Christ Jesus are justified, not by ourselves, or through our wisdom or understanding or godliness, or the works that we have done in holiness of heart, but by faith, by which all men from the beginning have been justified by Almighty God, to whom be glory world without end. Amen." (First Clement, 32-33).

Justin Martyr (100-165), "For Abraham was declared by God to be righteous, not on account of circumcision, but on account of faith. For before he was circumcised the following statement was made regarding him: ‘Abraham believed God, and it was accounted unto him for righteousness.'" (Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho 92)

https://carm.org/early-church-fathers-salvation

You can find some JEWELS when you look through the quotes of very early Catholics, like:

St. John Cassian 360 - 435 : The thief who received the kingdom of heaven, though not as the reward of virtue, is a true witness to the fact that salvation . . . . .
The thief who received the kingdom of heaven, though not as the reward of virtue, is a true witness to the fact that salvation is ours through the grace and mercy of God.


Here is that site: http://www.orthodoxchurchquotes.com/tag/holy-fathers/

thank you i appreciate this alot.

its fun how many early church agrees more with protestant doctrine than modern roman catholic. yet catholics talk more about early fathers

 

[VCO]

Yes, but not directly a statement on OSAS.

You should know better than to challenge me to PROVE OSAS, as taught by our forefathers.

Clement of Rome (AD 96)
And we, therefore…are not justified of ourselves or by our wisdom or insight or religious devotion or the holy deeds we have done from the heart, but by that faith by which almighty God has justified all men from the very beginning (ch. 32:4).

2 Timothy 1:9 (HCSB)
9 He has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace, which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began.

Revelation 17:8 (HCSB)
8 The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up from the abyss and go to destruction. Those who live on the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast that was, and is not, and will be present ⌊again⌋.

Without love faith can indeed exist, but can be of no avail” (De Trin. XV 18, 32).


Sounds like my kind of CHRISTIAN. I have always taught since I was Born Again, "Our Godly LOVE produces our Obedience."


Justin Martyr (AD 100-165)
Those who are found not living as he taught should know that they are not really Christians, even if his teachings are on their lips, for he said that not those who merely profess but those who also do the works will be saved (cf. Matt. 13:42, 43; 7:15,16,19)” (The First Apology of Justin, ch.16).

For Abraham was declared by God to be righteous, not on account of circumcision, but on account of faith (Dialogue with Trypho, ch. XCII).

Irenaeus (AD 130-200)
But to the righteous and holy, and those who have kept his commandments and have remained in his love…he will by his grace give life incorrupt, and will clothe them with eternal glory (ch.10:1).

No one, indeed while placed out of reach of our Lord’s benefits, has power to procure for himself the means of salvation. So the more we receive His grace, the more we should love Him (Against Heresies, Bk. IV, ch. XIII).

Tertullian (AD 160-223)
We make petition, then, that He supply us with the substance of His will and the capacity to do it–so that we may be saved both in the heaven and on earth (On Prayer, part III, ch. IV).

Theophilus (approx. AD 180)
To those who by patient continuance in well-doing seek immortality, He will give eternal life everlasting life” (Theophilus to Autolycus,

Lactantius (AD 240-320)
Labors that are endured and overcome all the way up until death, cannot fail to obtain a reward….And this reward can be nothing else but immortality (The Divine Institutes, Bk. III, ch. XII).

Ambrose (AD 340-397)
God chose that man should seek salvation by faith rather than by works, lest anyone should glory in his deeds and thereby incur sin (In Ps. 43 Enarr. 14).



THEY may not have used the WORDS Once Saved Always Saved, BUT they Certainly taught Eternal Security IN CHRIST.

Revelation 3:19-20 (HCSB)
19 As many as I love, I rebuke and discipline. So be committed and repent.
20 Listen! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and have dinner with him, and he with Me.


NO AND'S, IF'S, OR MAYBE'S.

John 10:27-28 (HCSB)
27 My sheep hear My voice, I know them, and they follow Me.
28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish—ever! No one will snatch them out of My hand.


It is not eternal life if you can lose it.

NO AND'S, IF'S, OR MAYBE'S.


Salvation is like a Fried Egg, "Can you unfry an egg? Then, after being saved, you cannot undo it."

 

[Heyjude]

I agree that only God knows our "works" anyway. There is a scene in the Godfather (or one the Godfather films, I cannot remember which one) where the "Godfather" is standing in Church all dressed respectively looking pious and humble next to the Priest, while he is at the font of a Baptism. Any onlooker would think he was doing "works" ( or the appearance of).

But outside, he had arranged for the shooting of his brother by another Gangster......

So yes, "works" might look good on the outside, but no one knows a man. God only knows. For who can say what "works" really are anyhow based on this? An apple might look good on the outside but it can be rotten to the core. Who knows? God knows.

 

[UnderGrace]

You should know better than to challenge me to PROVE OSAS, as taught by our forefathers.

Clement of Rome (AD 96)
And we, therefore…are not justified of ourselves or by our wisdom or insight or religious devotion or the holy deeds we have done from the heart, but by that faith by which almighty God has justified all men from the very beginning (ch. 32:4).

2 Timothy 1:9 (HCSB)
9 He has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace, which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began.

Revelation 17:8 (HCSB)
8 The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up from the abyss and go to destruction. Those who live on the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast that was, and is not, and will be present ⌊again⌋.

Without love faith can indeed exist, but can be of no avail” (De Trin. XV 18, 32).


Sounds like my kind of CHRISTIAN. I have always taught since I was Born Again, "Our Godly LOVE produces our Obedience."


Justin Martyr (AD 100-165)
Those who are found not living as he taught should know that they are not really Christians, even if his teachings are on their lips, for he said that not those who merely profess but those who also do the works will be saved (cf. Matt. 13:42, 43; 7:15,16,19)” (The First Apology of Justin, ch.16).

For Abraham was declared by God to be righteous, not on account of circumcision, but on account of faith (Dialogue with Trypho, ch. XCII).

Irenaeus (AD 130-200)
But to the righteous and holy, and those who have kept his commandments and have remained in his love…he will by his grace give life incorrupt, and will clothe them with eternal glory (ch.10:1).

No one, indeed while placed out of reach of our Lord’s benefits, has power to procure for himself the means of salvation. So the more we receive His grace, the more we should love Him (Against Heresies, Bk. IV, ch. XIII).

Tertullian (AD 160-223)
We make petition, then, that He supply us with the substance of His will and the capacity to do it–so that we may be saved both in the heaven and on earth (On Prayer, part III, ch. IV).

Theophilus (approx. AD 180)
To those who by patient continuance in well-doing seek immortality, He will give eternal life everlasting life” (Theophilus to Autolycus,

Lactantius (AD 240-320)
Labors that are endured and overcome all the way up until death, cannot fail to obtain a reward….And this reward can be nothing else but immortality (The Divine Institutes, Bk. III, ch. XII).

Ambrose (AD 340-397)
God chose that man should seek salvation by faith rather than by works, lest anyone should glory in his deeds and thereby incur sin (In Ps. 43 Enarr. 14).



THEY may not have used the WORDS Once Saved Always Saved, BUT they Certainly taught Eternal Security IN CHRIST.

Revelation 3:19-20 (HCSB)
19 As many as I love, I rebuke and discipline. So be committed and repent.
20 Listen! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and have dinner with him, and he with Me.


NO AND'S, IF'S, OR MAYBE'S.

John 10:27-28 (HCSB)
27 My sheep hear My voice, I know them, and they follow Me.
28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish—ever! No one will snatch them out of My hand.


It is not eternal life if you can lose it.

NO AND'S, IF'S, OR MAYBE'S.


Salvation is like a Fried Egg, "Can you unfry an egg? Then, after being saved, you cannot undo it."

Not one of these men made a statement that salvation was secure and if you read their writings most do not even have the gospel right even though they use all the right words.

 

[Hevosmies358]

Not one of these men made a statement that salvation was secure and if you read their writings most do not even have the gospel right even though they use all the right words.

YOOO

The early church didnt have the Gospel right? I beg to differ, its more likely that people TODAY dont have the Gospel right. End times APOSTASY is what the Bible teaches.
And we see it in the Joel Osteen's and Joseph Prince's of the world.

I'll take what the early church fathers has to say (who died for the faith many of them, and gave their entire lives to serve God) over any of the LOSERS that are on the pulpits and TV screens today who have gone through no kind of tribulations or troubles and are just living HIGH OFF THE HOG and have never been in the trenches. Cowards, losers, hirilings. My homies been through more than any of those fakers we got today.

Show some respect to the people who preserved the Bible for you!

 

[UnderGrace]

YOOO

The early church didnt have the Gospel right? I beg to differ, its more likely that people TODAY dont have the Gospel right. End times APOSTASY is what the Bible teaches.
And we see it in the Joel Osteen's and Joseph Prince's of the world.

That is not what I said at all ... are you feeling alright?

 

[Hevosmies358]

That is not what I said at all ... are you feeling alright?

You just said it:

if you read their writings most do not even have the gospel right

Clearly you're not alright. Ya gone off the deep end.

Most everyone is heretical in some teachings not everyone has everything right, but to not even have the gospel right means they werent even saved. Yet we owe a lot to these men and they SURELY were saved.

 

[oldethennew]

Hevosmies,

I see that you have mis-understood UG!

 

[dcontroversal]

I agree that only God knows our "works" anyway. There is a scene in the Godfather (or one the Godfather films, I cannot remember which one) where the "Godfather" is standing in Church all dressed respectively looking pious and humble next to the Priest, while he is at the font of a Baptism. Any onlooker would think he was doing "works" ( or the appearance of).

But outside, he had arranged for the shooting of his brother by another Gangster......

So yes, "works" might look good on the outside, but no one knows a man. God only knows. For who can say what "works" really are anyhow based on this? An apple might look good on the outside but it can be rotten to the core. Who knows? God knows.

Amen and as we have said 500 times......Faith alone is what saves a man, after initial faith and eternal salvation-->ANY work, fruit etc. is the result of CHRIST as the ROOT producing IT IN US as a living sacrifice and as a VINE we but bear it........

It is ALL CHRIST or it is fraudulent/fake!

 

[dcontroversal]

That is not what I said at all ... are you feeling alright?

I understood what you meant.....and just to point out the modern application of what you are saying.....many salvation losers that have come thru here have stated that they have eternal life, but that it can be forfeit or lost in some form or fashion or that we MUST maintain it or it is losable etc.....Fran was one such person.....she would argue that she had eternal life, but that SHE had to maintain it........

MANY religions use the right verbiage, but in actual doctrine deny the truth of eternal security.

 

[UnderGrace]

You just said it:


Clearly you're not alright. Ya gone off the deep end.

Most everyone is heretical in some teachings not everyone has everything right, but to not even have the gospel right means they werent even saved. Yet we owe a lot to these men and they SURELY were saved.

Thank you, very kind

 

[dcontroversal]

Thank you, very kind

HAHAHHA I go off the deep end about once or twice a week

 

[UnderGrace]

HAHAHHA I go off the deep end about once or twice a week

Well then I am in good company!!

I will take it as high praise!

Amen

 

[VCO]

Here is an old classic hymn that we sang it in Church today with and upbeat Tempo. I really liked it:

 

[ArtsieSteph]

I wonder why human nature fights so hard to make ourselves think that our works are going to be what saves us.... Pride maybe? Control?

 

[Melach]

I wonder why human nature fights so hard to make ourselves think that our works are going to be what saves us.... Pride maybe? Control?

bible verses and logic.

there are many verses that teach works salvation when you read for example matthew 25 sheep and goats. so people focus in on that one verses and run with it.

logic is another one where people see someone who claims to believe in Jesus but he/she lives in terrible sinful condition but used to live righteous, then they say surely that person cant go to heaven. because galatians 5:19-21 says this people dont go.
they could say that maybe that person was never saved to begin with like john says, but because they lived righteous for some time people make asumption he/she was saved.

many buddhist monks and unbelievers live on surface righteous life, they dont fornicate, adultery, steal, lie, etc. but still not saved.

i can answer because i come from works salvation background-

when you confront people about salvation being a free gift, eternal life, never perish, incorruptible seed. you get the logic answer like: "if i give you a car as a gift, but you dont take care of that car it will rust". so thats it. i dont think this debate will go away this side of heaven.

 

[dcontroversal]

bible verses and logic.

there are many verses that teach works salvation when you read for example matthew 25 sheep and goats. so people focus in on that one verses and run with it.

logic is another one where people see someone who claims to believe in Jesus but he/she lives in terrible sinful condition but used to live righteous, then they say surely that person cant go to heaven. because galatians 5:19-21 says this people dont go.
they could say that maybe that person was never saved to begin with like john says, but because they lived righteous for some time people make asumption he/she was saved.

many buddhist monks and unbelievers live on surface righteous life, they dont fornicate, adultery, steal, lie, etc. but still not saved.

i can answer because i come from works salvation background-

when you confront people about salvation being a free gift, eternal life, never perish, incorruptible seed. you get the logic answer like: "if i give you a car as a gift, but you dont take care of that car it will rust". so thats it. i dont think this debate will go away this side of heaven.

Just to make a correction..there are no verses in context that teach a works based salvation.......and many forget that under the OLD covenant both life, blessings and being placed in the land were conditional upon obedience to a set of rules, regulations and laws....These same LAWS were by design given to prove that NO MAN can keep the LAW of GOD and in essence to PROVE the guilt of the entire world before man.....

MANY totally disregard the fact that the words of JESUS MUST be interpreted in light of the fact that he was born, lived and died UNDER the LAW which RATIFIED the NEW COVENANT of GRACE.......

 

[Melach]

Just to make a correction..there are no verses in context that teach a works based salvation.......and many forget that under the OLD covenant both life, blessings and being placed in the land were conditional upon obedience to a set of rules, regulations and laws....These same LAWS were by design given to prove that NO MAN can keep the LAW of GOD and in essence to PROVE the guilt of the entire world before man.....

MANY totally disregard the fact that the words of JESUS MUST be interpreted in light of the fact that he was born, lived and died UNDER the LAW which RATIFIED the NEW COVENANT of GRACE.......

i agree. but sheep and goats transcend all covenants cause its talking about end of days when Jesus returns.

me i believe its about the millennium but its just my view. last judgment isnt when Jesus returns. only at gwt.