Why I now believe that salvation can be lost.

[Noose]

The Holy Spirit becomes grieved, but the text says nothing about the believer being unsealed by the Holy Spirit. Children at times can grieve their parents, but that doesn't mean their parents disown them.

We know what happens when the Holy spirit is grieved.
If we deny Him, He denies us.

2 Tim 2:12if we endure, we will also reign with Him; if we deny Him, He will also deny us;

1 Timothy 5:8
If anyone does not provide for his own, and especially his own household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.

Again, works of love are the real deal.

 

[Lightskin]

Yes, i work out my own salvation in fear and trembling believing that i will indeed rest from my works and my deeds will follow me.

Rev 14:
12Here is a call for the endurance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.
13And I heard a voice from heaven telling me to write, “Blessed are the dead—those who die in the Lord from this moment on.”
“Yes,” says the Spirit, “they will rest from their labors, for their deeds will follow them.”

What about you? What are you going to rest from?

I put my full rest in Jesus Christ as per His words found in Matthew 11:28-30

 

[Noose]

I put my full rest in Jesus Christ as per His words found in Matthew 11:28-30

You can only rest from work and not some thoughts or ideas. Your Father is working to this day, you also need to work, not the works of law but love.

 

[Lightskin]

You can only rest from work and not some thoughts or ideas. Your Father is working to this day, you also need to work, not the works of law but love.

Having faith in Jesus Christ is what God commands. Jesus IS our rest.

 

[PennEd]

We know what happens when the Holy spirit is grieved.
If we deny Him, He denies us.

2 Tim 2:12if we endure, we will also reign with Him; if we deny Him, He will also deny us;

1 Timothy 5:8
If anyone does not provide for his own, and especially his own household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.

Again, works of love are the real deal.

Several times now you have used 2Timothy 5 to promote your works Gospel.

Tell us why you don’t finish the phrase with verse 13?

Ya know, where it says even if we are faithless He REMAINS faithful.

 

[edwinrad]

Several times now you have used 2Timothy 5 to promote your works Gospel.

Tell us why you don’t finish the phrase with verse 13?

Ya know, where it says even if we are faithless He REMAINS faithful.

Several times now you have used 2Timothy 5 to promote your works Gospel.

Tell us why you don’t finish the phrase with verse 13?

Ya know, where it says even if we are faithless He REMAINS faithful.

Several times now you have used 2Timothy 5 to promote your works Gospel.

Tell us why you don’t finish the phrase with verse 13?

Ya know, where it says even if we are faithless He REMAINS faithful.

Several times now you have used 2Timothy 5 to promote your works Gospel.

Tell us why you don’t finish the phrase with verse 13?

Ya know, where it says even if we are faithless He REMAINS faithful.

 

[Noose]

Several times now you have used 2Timothy 5 to promote your works Gospel.

Tell us why you don’t finish the phrase with verse 13?

Ya know, where it says even if we are faithless He REMAINS faithful.

2 Tim 2:
11Here is a trustworthy saying:

If we died with him,
we will also live with him;
12if we endure,
we will also reign with him.
If we disown him,
he will also disown us;
13if we are faithless,
he remains faithful,
for he cannot disown himself.
14Keep reminding God’s people of these things. Warn them before God against quarreling about words; it is of no value, and only ruins those who listen. 15Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth. 16Avoid godless chatter, because those who indulge in it will become more and more ungodly. 17Their teaching will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, 18who have departed from the truth. They say that the resurrection has already taken place, and they destroy the faith of some. 19Nevertheless, God’s solid foundation stands firm, sealed with this inscription: “The Lord knows those who are his,” and, “Everyone who confesses the name of the Lord must turn away from wickedness.”

Vs 13.
God never breaks a covenant because He is always faithful. This is not a new thing, we see this throughout the OT. This doesn't cancel Vs 12 which says if we disown Him, He will disown us.

Reading a little further, we see practical example of two people who have fallen from truth (faith) and are causing others to also fall from faith in Christ by what they teach.

You are claiming that once a person has faith in Christ, they are already saved eternally but from the above passage, we see people can indeed fall from faith - does this mean they have lost salvation?

We are also urged to 'do our best' (vs 15). This phrase and all its variants means 'work towards'.

 

[Noose]

Having faith in Jesus Christ is what God commands. Jesus IS our rest.

True, but having faith in Christ has nothing to do with mental pictures of Christ on the cross for our sins and then murmuring the same, having faith in Christ/ believing in Christ means loving others.

 

[Whispered]

Thanks for your prayers but all that being taken out of context to teach something else.

Yes people are sealed and the gifts of God are irrevocable and salvation is free and all that staff- yet none of these means one needs to close their eyes, have that mental picture of Christ dying for your sins and confess the same with your mouth and you are home and dry because this is what is being taught as faith or belief in Christ.

Not even close, these are your own works - the reason i say works are a belief and beliefs are works.

I know what you say. However, you are wrong. Beliefs are not works and works are not beliefs.
You are following a faith you conceived because it fits you. It is not the faith Christ died to instill.
You are adamant in following your path. So be it.

 

[edwinrad]

I put my full rest in Jesus Christ as per His words found in Matthew 11:28-30

2 Tim 2:
11Here is a trustworthy saying:

If we died with him,
we will also live with him;
12if we endure,
we will also reign with him.
If we disown him,
he will also disown us;
13if we are faithless,
he remains faithful,
for he cannot disown himself.
14Keep reminding God’s people of these things. Warn them before God against quarreling about words; it is of no value, and only ruins those who listen. 15Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth. 16Avoid godless chatter, because those who indulge in it will become more and more ungodly. 17Their teaching will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, 18who have departed from the truth. They say that the resurrection has already taken place, and they destroy the faith of some. 19Nevertheless, God’s solid foundation stands firm, sealed with this inscription: “The Lord knows those who are his,” and, “Everyone who confesses the name of the Lord must turn away from wickedness.”

Vs 13.
God never breaks a covenant because He is always faithful. This is not a new thing, we see this throughout the OT. This doesn't cancel Vs 12 which says if we disown Him, He will disown us.

Reading a little further, we see practical example of two people who have fallen from truth (faith) and are causing others to also fall from faith in Christ by what they teach.

You are claiming that once a person has faith in Christ, they are already saved eternally but from the above passage, we see people can indeed fall from faith - does this mean they have lost salvation?

We are also urged to 'do our best' (vs 15). This phrase and all its variants means 'work towards'.

Biblically, those who deny Christ are typically non-Christians. We see this in a number of passages (Mt. 10:33; 2 Tim. 3:5; Titus 1:16; 2 Pet. 2:1; 1 Jn. 2:22-23; Jude 1:4). It’s possible that these were professing Christians, but they were not true Christians. Similarly, in this passage, Paul uses the aorist tense in Greek, which connotes an accomplished act in the past. Therefore, Paul could simply be describing those who never accepted Christ in the first place. Look at the soils of the heart in Matt. 13 and Mark 4.
The very next verse is eternal security.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

So what happens when a fallen Christian does not repent?

and while a son or daughter of God is disobedient how can there be a confidence of salvation?

John 6:38 - Jesus died to pay for the sins of all that God gave him and he will not lose even one of those that he died for. After he washed away our sins, God says that he looks upon those that he died for as holy and with out blame (Eph 1:4,5), so, yes, they still have eternal life even if they do not repent.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Biblically, those who deny Christ are typically non-Christians. We see this in a number of passages (Mt. 10:33; 2 Tim. 3:5; Titus 1:16; 2 Pet. 2:1; 1 Jn. 2:22-23; Jude 1:4). It’s possible that these were professing Christians, but they were not true Christians. Similarly, in this passage, Paul uses the aorist tense in Greek, which connotes an accomplished act in the past. Therefore, Paul could simply be describing those who never accepted Christ in the first place. Look at the soils of the heart in Matt. 13 and Mark 4.
The very next verse is eternal security.

I will list your name among those born again children of God who do not understand just how depraved a child of God can be according to his nature which we all still carry with us though we have been born again.

 

[Noose]

I know what you say. However, you are wrong. Beliefs are not works and works are not beliefs.
You are following a faith you conceived because it fits you. It is not the faith Christ died to instill.
You are adamant in following your path. So be it.

Work is a belief. This is easy to demonstrate.

Q.What works, does a person need to do to remember to keep the Sabbath Holy?
A. Abstain from all works

Q.Then why is it a work of the law?
A. Because it is a belief

Therefore works are their underlying beliefs and not necessarily what is physically done.

The opposite is also true.

Faith in Christ/Belief in Christ is a work. It is not the mental picture of Christ on the cross for the sake of your sin but love for others.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Ephesians 4:30 - And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed unto/for the day of redemption.

This is awkward for OSAS/ES because it means if you grieve the Holy spirit you will be unsealed.
The statement also means the day of redemption is ahead and not now.

2 Tim 4:5But you, be sober in all things, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry. 6For I am already being poured out like a drink offering, and the time of my departure is at hand. 7I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. 8From now on the crown of righteousness is laid up for me, which the Lord, the righteous judge, will award to me on that day—and not only to me, but to all who crave His appearing.

Sorry, a child of God noes not become "unsealed".

 

[Noose]

Biblically, those who deny Christ are typically non-Christians. We see this in a number of passages (Mt. 10:33; 2 Tim. 3:5; Titus 1:16; 2 Pet. 2:1; 1 Jn. 2:22-23; Jude 1:4). It’s possible that these were professing Christians, but they were not true Christians. Similarly, in this passage, Paul uses the aorist tense in Greek, which connotes an accomplished act in the past. Therefore, Paul could simply be describing those who never accepted Christ in the first place. Look at the soils of the heart in Matt. 13 and Mark 4.
The very next verse is eternal security.

2 Tim 2:17Their teaching will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, 18who have departed from the truth. They say that the resurrection has already taken place, and they destroy the faith of some. 19Nevertheless, God’s solid foundation stands firm, sealed with this inscription: “The Lord knows those who are his,” and, “Everyone who confesses the name of the Lord must turn away from wickedness.”

It clearly says they have departed from faith and with their teachings, they continue to destroy other peoples faith.

Fact; A person can only depart from faith if they were in the faith to begin with. And a persons faith can only be destroyed if they had faith to begin with.

Try something else, this one is not working for you.

 

[Noose]

Sorry, a child of God noes not become "unsealed".

Yes they can.

2 Pet 2:20If indeed they have escaped the corruption of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ,e only to be entangled and overcome by it again, their final condition is worse than it was at first. 21It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness than to have known it and then to turn away from the holy commandment passed on to them. 22Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,”f and, “A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud.”

 

[edwinrad]

I will list your name among those born again children of God who do not understand just how depraved a child of God can be according to his nature which we all still carry with us though we have been born again.

The believer will have a sin nature till he or she dies. But the NEW born again spirit man has God's seed and is sinless(1John 3;9, 5:18) and the flesh lusts against the spirit, and the spirit against the flesh(Galatians 5;17).

Paul said, For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Now if I do that I would not, it is...NO MORE I...that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me(Romans 7;19,20). Had the man in incest not left that relationship God would have taken him HOME prematurely(1Cor. 5:5) just like He did with believers getting drunk at communion(1Cor. 11:30-32).

 

[ForestGreenCook]

The believer will have a sin nature till he or she dies. But the NEW born again spirit man has God's seed and is sinless(1John 3;9, 5:18) and the flesh lusts against the spirit, and the spirit against the flesh(Galatians 5;17).

Paul said, For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Now if I do that I would not, it is...NO MORE I...that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me(Romans 7;19,20). Had the man in incest not left that relationship God would have taken him HOME prematurely(1Cor. 5:5) just like He did with believers getting drunk at communion(1Cor. 11:30-32).

Yes, those that Jesus died for are holy and without blame as far as their eternal salvation is concerned they are sinless, however, during their sojourning here on earth they do at times yield their bodies over to lusting after the things of this world, just as the apostle Paul said that he did in Romans 7. I may be missing the point you are trying to make, if so, let me know.

 

[Noose]

The believer will have a sin nature till he or she dies. But the NEW born again spirit man has God's seed and is sinless(1John 3;9, 5:18) and the flesh lusts against the spirit, and the spirit against the flesh(Galatians 5;17).

Paul said, For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Now if I do that I would not, it is...NO MORE I...that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me(Romans 7;19,20). Had the man in incest not left that relationship God would have taken him HOME prematurely(1Cor. 5:5) just like He did with believers getting drunk at communion(1Cor. 11:30-32).

All these are correct and they are correct because they are viewed from God's lenses.

There's nothing new to God/ He declares the end from the beginning meaning He knows the end meaning the end and the beginning are just the same, they are one to Him. It is like a loop with start and end points joining in one place.

Those that stand saved in the end, He has them at the beginning- it doesn't mean these people do not travel through time and space and experience the loop in a journey that is actually taking them back in the beginning which to them is the end.

Do not come here thinking like God; every believer has to persevere and overcome the temptations in this world and their flesh. Even though God helps them, they have to will to overcome satans arrows. The bible is no short of encouragement but also warnings. If God does everything for us then there's absolutely no need for the warnings or even encouragement.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

The believer will have a sin nature till he or she dies. But the NEW born again spirit man has God's seed and is sinless(1John 3;9, 5:18) and the flesh lusts against the spirit, and the spirit against the flesh(Galatians 5;17).

Paul said, For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Now if I do that I would not, it is...NO MORE I...that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me(Romans 7;19,20). Had the man in incest not left that relationship God would have taken him HOME prematurely(1Cor. 5:5) just like He did with believers getting drunk at communion(1Cor. 11:30-32).

I believe that a Christian that is born again, can deny Christ. Every time commit a sin, we are denying Christ, but, nevertheless, we never lose our eternal inheritance. I my not be reading you right, if so, I apologize.