Why I now believe that salvation can be lost.

[garee]

I did -
and you keep replying with complete doctrinal gobbledegook and waffle .

Yes when only one thing is needed to provide gobbledegook and waffle that some call tongues.

One verse (Acts 2:38) to them covers all . Make a noise fall backward to indicate that kind of spirit is finished.

 

[Noose]

Ephesians 4:30 - And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed unto/for the day of redemption.

This is awkward for OSAS/ES because it means if you grieve the Holy spirit you will be unsealed.
The statement also means the day of redemption is ahead and not now.

2 Tim 4:5But you, be sober in all things, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry. 6For I am already being poured out like a drink offering, and the time of my departure is at hand. 7I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. 8From now on the crown of righteousness is laid up for me, which the Lord, the righteous judge, will award to me on that day—and not only to me, but to all who crave His appearing.

 

[Noose]

May Noose and others who believe we have to labor to stay Saved have their eyes opened to these facts.

Thanks for your prayers but all that being taken out of context to teach something else.

Yes people are sealed and the gifts of God are irrevocable and salvation is free and all that staff- yet none of these means one needs to close their eyes, have that mental picture of Christ dying for your sins and confess the same with your mouth and you are home and dry because this is what is being taught as faith or belief in Christ.

Not even close, these are your own works - the reason i say works are a belief and beliefs are works.

 

[stonesoffire]

So what happens when disciples stop listening and stop following the Holy Spirit and therefore Jesus??

13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
Romans 8:

And why would disciples do this Waggles?

 

[stonesoffire]

So what happens when a fallen Christian does not repent?

and while a son or daughter of God is disobedient how can there be a confidence of salvation?

Mic 7:8 Rejoice not against me, O mine enemy: when I fall, I shall arise; when I sit in darkness, the LORD shall be a light unto me.


Mic 7:9 I will bear the indignation of the LORD, because I have sinned against him, until he plead my cause, and execute judgment for me: he will bring me forth to the light, and I shall behold his righteousness.


Mic 7:10 Then she that is mine enemy shall see it, and shame shall cover her which said unto me, Where is the LORD thy God? mine eyes shall behold her: now shall she be trodden down as the mire of the streets.

 

[Waggles]

And why would disciples do this Waggles?

Because they can and do.

 

[notuptome]

NO and very wrong.
unscriptural and not supported in the book of Acts and the epistles.

You are a religious zealot but it is very difficult to believe from what you post that you know the Lord.

Titus 3:5 clearly teaches that the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit is how we are saved. This is received the moment we call upon Christ for salvation.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Noose]

You are a religious zealot but it is very difficult to believe from what you post that you know the Lord.

Titus 3:5 clearly teaches that the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit is how we are saved. This is received the moment we call upon Christ for salvation.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Titus 3:5He saved us, not by the righteous deeds we had done, but according to His mercy, through the washing of new birth and renewal by the Holy Spirit.

Most people almost always don't know what this means. This has nothing to do with the idea that someone mentally pictures Jesus dying for their sin on the cross and then pronouncing something with their mouth. This is precisely the works that the scripture prohibits for works are a belief but faith in Christ is indeed a work- to love one another.

And this is a practical demonstration of who has faith in Christ:

Rev 14:
12Here is a call for the endurance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

13And I heard a voice from heaven telling me to write, “Blessed are the dead—those who die in the Lord from this moment on.”

“Yes,” says the Spirit, “they will rest from their labors, for their deeds will follow them.”

 

[mailmandan]

Ephesians 4:30 - And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed unto/for the day of redemption. This is awkward for OSAS/ES because it means if you grieve the Holy spirit you will be unsealed.

Pure eisegesis/reading one's own ideas into the text. Show us the word "unsealed" in the text. Who of us has not sometimes grieved the Holy Spirit? This is actually awkward for those in the NOSAS camp.

The statement also means the day of redemption is ahead and not now.

Believers are sealed unto/for the day of redemption and the Bible says nothing about being unsealed before that day. Also, in Ephesians 1:13-14, we read - In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory. Praise God!

 

[mailmandan]

And why would disciples do this Waggles?

John 8:31 - ..“If you continue in My word, then you are TRULY disciples of Mine. What about those who set out to be disciples of Christ, yet later become offended by Jesus, like these many disciples in John 6:60-66, who were offended by the words of Jesus, then withdrew and walked with Him no more? -- NOT TRULY His disciples. In verse 64, Jesus even said - But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him.

 

[PennEd]

Yes following Jesus words changes us into a new creation. I pray that he will help me everyday to change into the person he wants me to be, because on my own I couldn't change. And my self effort alone cannot change me. This is why he says- watch and pray you will resist temptation, the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak. It is very possible to fall back into our sinful lifestyles again and do wicked works again, because the devil roams around the world looking to tempt Christians. This is why we need to be sober minded and ALERT, always aware of the devils schemes. What I have realised recently is that what is most important is the quality of my relationship with Jesus. Not the number of good works I do. When we have a close relationship with Jesus we want to listen to his words, and they are not a burden when we want to obey him. So I have alot of baggage I need to work through with the help of God and it may be a process. So my focus is Just to be close to God in my struggles.

The reason I believe that a believer can fall away it is stated in the bible and also It has directly happened to me through "my experience". I have had many times i have fallen into sin and I went back to my sinful lifestyle. This lifestyle was alcohol abusing- drunkenness.

I would do well for a while and then I would get all these temptations to drink and i gave into them and I became very sinful inside and with my behavior.

So I cannot believe while in my sin, I would go to heaven.

When I don't drink. I can see I want to Obey God more. I also see an improvement with my spiritual life and my mental health is alot better. I also got attacked by satan when I opened the door to sin.

The reason I drank was because of SIN yes but it has also been because of my mental health issues caused from things that happened to me in life. I was self medicating to try and forget my mental illnesses. They are social anxiety and panic attacks/low self esteem and I used to have depression. I got low self esteem from being bullied about my appearance growing up due to a jaw deformity, which is now fixed.

So according to OSAS a person like me was always "NEVER SAVED TO BEGIN WITH" .

So this is why I cannot follow such a belief like that. Because someone like me wouldn't ever go to heaven if that was true.

So with what I now believe is that I was saved to begin with when I fell away and I now have a "chance" of entering heaven.

So anyone struggling with the same issues that I have been dealing with know that you may "turn away" and were born again and you can come back to God, he will forgive you and hear your cries for help. But we must obey the words of God to have a changed life and spirit. And yes we Obey because we want to. It's a choice to love God, just like it's choice with every other decision we have in life.

I have also seen that living a sinful lifestyle "Not obeying God". Made me hate God and I also saw my bitterness towards God when I was doing things against what he commands. My heart went HARD like a rock and also I developed a distorted view of God as well when I entered back into my old lifestyle- previous to being born again.

So can you be born again more than once. I believe you can, because when you fall away you become spiritually dead again- I have seen this in my life.

So the reason i have these beliefs is not because I am self righteousness, it's because I have had "self" struggles.

So rather than directing comments at others, I will show my experience.
And we all have different ones.

And the reason people turn from conditional security is because they believe it's all about condemnation, because you keep failing to OBEY GOD. I have realised it's not self effort but effort in a our relationship with God. And that is spending time with him every day. Listening to his words and talking to him. If you fail and continue failing, you need to look back at the Situation and examine it, what thoughts have I thought today- were they in accordance with Gods word, was I meditating on worldly things. If we make mistakes we just need to repent and say sorry and God will forgive us. There is now no condemnation for those who walk after after the spirit and NOT THE FLESH. So we have to turn away from FLESH then we have no condemnation.

God bless youxxx
Hope you are well, will be praying for you.

Didn’t have to read beyond your 1st sentence. Jesus changes us into a NEW creation. Not us following the Word. That is a pure works doctrine. Why do you keep taking the credit for saving us away from Jesus?

 

[garee]

Ephesians 4:30 - And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed unto/for the day of redemption.

This is awkward for OSAS/ES because it means if you grieve the Holy spirit you will be unsealed.
The statement also means the day of redemption is ahead and not now.

2 Tim 4:5But you, be sober in all things, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry. 6For I am already being poured out like a drink offering, and the time of my departure is at hand. 7I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. 8From now on the crown of righteousness is laid up for me, which the Lord, the righteous judge, will award to me on that day—and not only to me, but to all who crave His appearing.

It mean don't grive the Holy Spirit. But rather work to do what it commands .

 

[Lightskin]

So what happens when a fallen Christian does not repent?

and while a son or daughter of God is disobedient how can there be a confidence of salvation?

Because while we were still sinners, God Gave His Son for us. That’s how.

 

[Lightskin]

Eternal life is eternal.
A claim that one has eternal life is a claim, doesn't mean they have it.

You’re a perfect example of this.

 

[Melach]

Yes following Jesus words changes us into a new creation. I pray that he will help me everyday to change into the person he wants me to be, because on my own I couldn't change. And my self effort alone cannot change me. This is why he says- watch and pray you will resist temptation, the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak. It is very possible to fall back into our sinful lifestyles again and do wicked works again, because the devil roams around the world looking to tempt Christians. This is why we need to be sober minded and ALERT, always aware of the devils schemes. What I have realised recently is that what is most important is the quality of my relationship with Jesus. Not the number of good works I do. When we have a close relationship with Jesus we want to listen to his words, and they are not a burden when we want to obey him. So I have alot of baggage I need to work through with the help of God and it may be a process. So my focus is Just to be close to God in my struggles.

The reason I believe that a believer can fall away it is stated in the bible and also It has directly happened to me through "my experience". I have had many times i have fallen into sin and I went back to my sinful lifestyle. This lifestyle was alcohol abusing- drunkenness.

I would do well for a while and then I would get all these temptations to drink and i gave into them and I became very sinful inside and with my behavior.

So I cannot believe while in my sin, I would go to heaven.

When I don't drink. I can see I want to Obey God more. I also see an improvement with my spiritual life and my mental health is alot better. I also got attacked by satan when I opened the door to sin.

The reason I drank was because of SIN yes but it has also been because of my mental health issues caused from things that happened to me in life. I was self medicating to try and forget my mental illnesses. They are social anxiety and panic attacks/low self esteem and I used to have depression. I got low self esteem from being bullied about my appearance growing up due to a jaw deformity, which is now fixed.

So according to OSAS a person like me was always "NEVER SAVED TO BEGIN WITH" .

So this is why I cannot follow such a belief like that. Because someone like me wouldn't ever go to heaven if that was true.

So with what I now believe is that I was saved to begin with when I fell away and I now have a "chance" of entering heaven.

So anyone struggling with the same issues that I have been dealing with know that you may "turn away" and were born again and you can come back to God, he will forgive you and hear your cries for help. But we must obey the words of God to have a changed life and spirit. And yes we Obey because we want to. It's a choice to love God, just like it's choice with every other decision we have in life.

I have also seen that living a sinful lifestyle "Not obeying God". Made me hate God and I also saw my bitterness towards God when I was doing things against what he commands. My heart went HARD like a rock and also I developed a distorted view of God as well when I entered back into my old lifestyle- previous to being born again.

So can you be born again more than once. I believe you can, because when you fall away you become spiritually dead again- I have seen this in my life.

So the reason i have these beliefs is not because I am self righteousness, it's because I have had "self" struggles.

So rather than directing comments at others, I will show my experience.
And we all have different ones.

And the reason people turn from conditional security is because they believe it's all about condemnation, because you keep failing to OBEY GOD. I have realised it's not self effort but effort in a our relationship with God. And that is spending time with him every day. Listening to his words and talking to him. If you fail and continue failing, you need to look back at the Situation and examine it, what thoughts have I thought today- were they in accordance with Gods word, was I meditating on worldly things. If we make mistakes we just need to repent and say sorry and God will forgive us. There is now no condemnation for those who walk after after the spirit and NOT THE FLESH. So we have to turn away from FLESH then we have no condemnation.

God bless youxxx
Hope you are well, will be praying for you.

hello friend. my heart goes out for you. hope you are doing well God bless you thank you for opening up to us. may God grant you permanent victory.

however i want to ask one question, you said:

So can you be born again more than once. I believe you can, because when you fall away you become spiritually dead again- I have seen this in my life.

about being able to die again and born again again. how do you see these verses going with it:


Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

that looks like if its possible to fall away, its also impossible to come back. how do you or any other conditional security believers interpret those verses?

about being born again and dying again i have this verse, which says its incorruptible seed we are born of not corruptible:

1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

 

[Noose]

You’re a perfect example of this.

Yes, i work out my own salvation in fear and trembling believing that i will indeed rest from my works and my deeds will follow me.

Rev 14:
12Here is a call for the endurance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.
13And I heard a voice from heaven telling me to write, “Blessed are the dead—those who die in the Lord from this moment on.”
“Yes,” says the Spirit, “they will rest from their labors, for their deeds will follow them.”

What about you? What are you going to rest from?

 

[garee]

Waggles said:


So what happens when a fallen Christian does not repent?

and while a son or daughter of God is disobedient how can there be a confidence of salvation?

That kind of self edifying confidence comes from Acts 2:38 make a unknown sound, get wet, fall backward. .Just perform the oneness wonderment as a sign unto yourself.

 

[Noose]

Pure eisegesis/reading one's own ideas into the text. Show us the word "unsealed" in the text. Who of us has not sometimes grieved the Holy Spirit? This is actually awkward for those in the NOSAS camp.

Believers are sealed unto/for the day of redemption and the Bible says nothing about being unsealed before that day. Also, in Ephesians 1:13-14, we read - In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory. Praise God!

What do you think happens if one grieves the Holy spirit?

 

[mailmandan]

What do you think happens if one grieves the Holy spirit?

The Holy Spirit becomes grieved, but the text says nothing about the believer being unsealed by the Holy Spirit. Children at times can grieve their parents, but that doesn't mean their parents disown them.

 

[Noose]

John 8:31 - ..“If you continue in My word, then you are TRULY disciples of Mine. What about those who set out to be disciples of Christ, yet later become offended by Jesus, like these many disciples in John 6:60-66, who were offended by the words of Jesus, then withdrew and walked with Him no more? -- NOT TRULY His disciples. In verse 64, Jesus even said - But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him.

Except that keeping God's word has nothing to do with mental pictures of Christ but rather loving one another (works)

John 15:5I am the vine and you are the branches. The one who remains in Me, and I in him, will bear much fruit. For apart from Me you can do nothing. 6If anyone does not remain in Me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers. Such branches are gathered up, thrown into the fire, and burned. 7If you remain in Me and My words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8This is to My Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, proving yourselves to be My disciples.
9As the Father has loved Me, so have I loved you. Remain in My love. 10If you keep My commandments, you will remain in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and remain in His love. 11I have told you these things so that My joy may be in you and your joy may be complete.

12This is My commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. 13Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends.

14You are My friends if you do what I command you. 15No longer do I call you servants, for a servant does not understand what his master is doing. But I have called you friends, because everything I have learned from My Father I have made known to you. 16You did not choose Me, but I chose you. And I appointed you to go and bear fruit—fruit that will remain—so that whatever you ask the Father in My name, He will give you. 17This is My command to you: Love one another.