Why I now believe that salvation can be lost.

garee · Sep 6, 2019

It would seem that you are still stuck on unknown wonderments that you call sign gifts which are unknown in the bible. Spiritual gifts not seen yes,

How you came up with that Idea that you call the full way is unknown "

They were broken off because they were never believed. No faith. Not because they had faith that came from hearing and God stop doing his work .

The faith of Christ that does work in us to both will and do His good pleasure . If he began the work in us he will finish. He is our confidence . Putting confidence in a unknow sounds that some calls tongues is not what binds a person to the branch.

Hebrews 6 fits your scenario where men were putting their self edifying hope in the outward signs that they performed, having tasted of God's words.... not unknow sounds. Therefore not becoming grafted into the body bride of Christ because of unbelief. No faith (sola scriptura)

Philippians 1 King James Version (KJV) Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

notuptome · Sep 6, 2019

Waggles said:

Complete rubbish. You are saved your way but not God's way.

God's grace cannot be repented of nor does God give grace to an unbelieving heart. When we are saved we receive the Holy Spirit who seals us unto the day of redemption. There is no power on earth that can break that seal and God wills that the seal will remain unbroken.

Grandiose religious claims do not a Christian make. Mysticism is not a Christian endeavor.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

garee · Sep 6, 2019

So then some are not grafted in because they do not do this in any full way - most deny Acts 2:38 to start with? What is it they deny about it.? Looking to the foundation in Isaiah 28? or what the law in 1 Corinthians 14;22-23 points to as a sign . What does the sign confirm by looking at the law? A person after making a noise is grafted shown by falling backward slain in the spirit. ?

Melach · Sep 6, 2019

why i now believe that eternal life can end.

Noose · Sep 6, 2019

Melach said:

Eternal life is eternal.
A claim that one has eternal life is a claim, doesn't mean they have it.

Nat2019 · Sep 6, 2019

FollowHisSteps said:

Yes following Jesus words changes us into a new creation. I pray that he will help me everyday to change into the person he wants me to be, because on my own I couldn't change. And my self effort alone cannot change me. This is why he says- watch and pray you will resist temptation, the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak. It is very possible to fall back into our sinful lifestyles again and do wicked works again, because the devil roams around the world looking to tempt Christians. This is why we need to be sober minded and ALERT, always aware of the devils schemes. What I have realised recently is that what is most important is the quality of my relationship with Jesus. Not the number of good works I do. When we have a close relationship with Jesus we want to listen to his words, and they are not a burden when we want to obey him. So I have alot of baggage I need to work through with the help of God and it may be a process. So my focus is Just to be close to God in my struggles.

The reason I believe that a believer can fall away it is stated in the bible and also It has directly happened to me through "my experience". I have had many times i have fallen into sin and I went back to my sinful lifestyle. This lifestyle was alcohol abusing- drunkenness.

I would do well for a while and then I would get all these temptations to drink and i gave into them and I became very sinful inside and with my behavior.

So I cannot believe while in my sin, I would go to heaven.

When I don't drink. I can see I want to Obey God more. I also see an improvement with my spiritual life and my mental health is alot better. I also got attacked by satan when I opened the door to sin.

The reason I drank was because of SIN yes but it has also been because of my mental health issues caused from things that happened to me in life. I was self medicating to try and forget my mental illnesses. They are social anxiety and panic attacks/low self esteem and I used to have depression. I got low self esteem from being bullied about my appearance growing up due to a jaw deformity, which is now fixed.

So according to OSAS a person like me was always "NEVER SAVED TO BEGIN WITH" .

So this is why I cannot follow such a belief like that. Because someone like me wouldn't ever go to heaven if that was true.

So with what I now believe is that I was saved to begin with when I fell away and I now have a "chance" of entering heaven.

So anyone struggling with the same issues that I have been dealing with know that you may "turn away" and were born again and you can come back to God, he will forgive you and hear your cries for help. But we must obey the words of God to have a changed life and spirit. And yes we Obey because we want to. It's a choice to love God, just like it's choice with every other decision we have in life.

I have also seen that living a sinful lifestyle "Not obeying God". Made me hate God and I also saw my bitterness towards God when I was doing things against what he commands. My heart went HARD like a rock and also I developed a distorted view of God as well when I entered back into my old lifestyle- previous to being born again.

So can you be born again more than once. I believe you can, because when you fall away you become spiritually dead again- I have seen this in my life.

So the reason i have these beliefs is not because I am self righteousness, it's because I have had "self" struggles.

So rather than directing comments at others, I will show my experience.
And we all have different ones.

And the reason people turn from conditional security is because they believe it's all about condemnation, because you keep failing to OBEY GOD. I have realised it's not self effort but effort in a our relationship with God. And that is spending time with him every day. Listening to his words and talking to him. If you fail and continue failing, you need to look back at the Situation and examine it, what thoughts have I thought today- were they in accordance with Gods word, was I meditating on worldly things. If we make mistakes we just need to repent and say sorry and God will forgive us. There is now no condemnation for those who walk after after the spirit and NOT THE FLESH. So we have to turn away from FLESH then we have no condemnation.

God bless youxxx
Hope you are well, will be praying for you.

garee · Sep 6, 2019

Melach said:

The word forever is used two ways in the bible. One with respect to the end of this life .And the other forever without end (eternal) referring to the new creation.

garee · Sep 6, 2019

Its not a chance(God does not take chances). . . as if it was after our work and not Christ in us working to both will and do His good pleasure.

Congrads on having success with that kind of habit .Its very power in my famaily. Seeing it is the gateway drug approved of the this worlds government . .its almost as if we have permission....aking the word of God without effect.

That's not according to OSAS. But rather according to those who say you can lose your salvation . OUAU. Once a Un believer Always a Unbeliever.

Ultimately its seems you returned to your first love. . . hearing God and believing as a anchor to ones new soul. Experiencing the pang of hell as the wrath of God revealed from heaven like that of Jonas who refused to believe God. By reason of that suffering . he was turned by God so that he then having been turned, in turn could repent (comfort oneself).

Falling from grace is not losing one salvation. Those who taste of the goodness of God, and then fall away never having been born again as those who crucify Christ over and over every time they disobey and sin .Simply never had the faith to begin with ..

False pride like with Jonas I would think would be a stronger addition even of that of wine. Wine is a word that simply means anything that intoxicates or invigorates. That list is unending. Keep up the faith .It won't let you down.

Jonah 2 King James Version (KJV)2 Then Jonah prayed unto the Lord his God out of the fish's belly,2 And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the Lord, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice.

ForestGreenCook · Sep 6, 2019

Waggles said:

@ForestGreenCook Just wondering how do you explain ?
19 Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.
20 That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear.
21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you.
22 Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you
continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off.
Romans 11:

You explain John 6:38 to me and I will give you an explanation of Romans 11.

ForestGreenCook · Sep 6, 2019

Waggles said:

In order to believe, you have to hear. John 10:27,28 - My sheep (God's elect children) hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me, and I give unto them eternal life, and THEY SHALL NEVER PERISH, NEITHER SHALL ANY MAN PLUCK THEM OUT OF MY HAND. Rom 10:5,6 - These 12 Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not, But go rather to the LOST SHEEP (his children) of the house of Israel (God's chosen nation, but here he is referring to Jacob of whom God changed is name to be called Israel and Jacob is representative of God's elect people).

ForestGreenCook · Sep 6, 2019

Nat2019 said:

Yes following Jesus words changes us into a new creation. I pray that he will help me everyday to change into the person he wants me to be, because on my own I couldn't change. And my self effort alone cannot change me. This is why he says- watch and pray you will resist temptation, the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak. It is very possible to fall back into our sinful lifestyles again and do wicked works again, because the devil roams around the world looking to tempt Christians. This is why we need to be sober minded and ALERT, always aware of the devils schemes. What I have realised recently is that what is most important is the quality of my relationship with Jesus. Not the number of good works I do. When we have a close relationship with Jesus we want to listen to his words, and they are not a burden when we want to obey him. So I have alot of baggage I need to work through with the help of God and it may be a process. So my focus is Just to be close to God in my struggles.

The reason I believe that a believer can fall away it is stated in the bible and also It has directly happened to me through "my experience". I have had many times i have fallen into sin and I went back to my sinful lifestyle. This lifestyle was alcohol abusing- drunkenness.

I would do well for a while and then I would get all these temptations to drink and i gave into them and I became very sinful inside and with my behavior.

So I cannot believe while in my sin, I would go to heaven.

When I don't drink. I can see I want to Obey God more. I also see an improvement with my spiritual life and my mental health is alot better. I also got attacked by satan when I opened the door to sin.

The reason I drank was because of SIN yes but it has also been because of my mental health issues caused from things that happened to me in life. I was self medicating to try and forget my mental illnesses. They are social anxiety and panic attacks/low self esteem and I used to have depression. I got low self esteem from being bullied about my appearance growing up due to a jaw deformity, which is now fixed.

So according to OSAS a person like me was always "NEVER SAVED TO BEGIN WITH" .

So this is why I cannot follow such a belief like that. Because someone like me wouldn't ever go to heaven if that was true.

So with what I now believe is that I was saved to begin with when I fell away and I now have a "chance" of entering heaven.

So anyone struggling with the same issues that I have been dealing with know that you may "turn away" and were born again and you can come back to God, he will forgive you and hear your cries for help. But we must obey the words of God to have a changed life and spirit. And yes we Obey because we want to. It's a choice to love God, just like it's choice with every other decision we have in life.

I have also seen that living a sinful lifestyle "Not obeying God". Made me hate God and I also saw my bitterness towards God when I was doing things against what he commands. My heart went HARD like a rock and also I developed a distorted view of God as well when I entered back into my old lifestyle- previous to being born again.

So can you be born again more than once. I believe you can, because when you fall away you become spiritually dead again- I have seen this in my life.

So the reason i have these beliefs is not because I am self righteousness, it's because I have had "self" struggles.

So rather than directing comments at others, I will show my experience.
And we all have different ones.

And the reason people turn from conditional security is because they believe it's all about condemnation, because you keep failing to OBEY GOD. I have realised it's not self effort but effort in a our relationship with God. And that is spending time with him every day. Listening to his words and talking to him. If you fail and continue failing, you need to look back at the Situation and examine it, what thoughts have I thought today- were they in accordance with Gods word, was I meditating on worldly things. If we make mistakes we just need to repent and say sorry and God will forgive us. There is now no condemnation for those who walk after after the spirit and NOT THE FLESH. So we have to turn away from FLESH then we have no condemnation.

God bless youxxx
Hope you are well, will be praying for you.

You are exactly right about a born again person that can turn away from God due to lusting after the things of the world. But you are misunderstanding that when a child of God does this, they do not lose their eternal inheritance of heaven, just their fellowship with God until they repent. Luke 15: 13,24 - In this event of a father's two sons, the youngest son left home to lust after the things of the world and sank so low that he repented to his father and his father accepted him back home. The son, during his lusting after the things of the world, was always his fathers son, just a disobedient one.

BillG · Sep 6, 2019

Nat2019 said:

I am sorry that you experienced this.
As a OSAS believer I would never have made you feel that way or expressed such a thing.

The reality is that a lot of struggle with self medication whether it be drink, gambling, food, shopping and so on.

To me the result is not the issue.
It's the cause of the affect that is the issue.

Deal with that, then the affect will fall away.
We are still children of God but we can and do walk out of character as children of God.

There is a difference between doing something like you did, as I did with my gambling.

The difference is hating it and not wanting to do it and crying out for help to God, as I did.

As opposed to doing it and not giving two hoots what you are doing and still claiming to be saved.

However we will not know that of another person unless we come alongside.

If we do and it's apparent that they are using Gods grace as a licence to sin then I would question if they were saved to begin with and remind them of Romans 5-6.

So if you were like me I would infact say that you were saved even in those dark days.

We must all of us remember that God is more interested in us as children than our works.

He wants to heal, deal and teach us his ways.
When he deals with us he wants to heal us and when he does we find it easier to walk in his ways.

Romans 8:28-30
28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

Notice he doesn't make all things good (he can't make bullying good) but works in them to conform us to the image of Jesus.

God bless you.

Bill.

edwinrad · Sep 6, 2019

Whispered said:

Salvation is a free GIFT(Ephesians 2:8,9) and the gifts and calling of God are IRREVOCABLE(Romans 11:29). Jesus said, Those the Father gives me I lose NONE(John 6:39). Every believer is SEALED with the Holy Spirit(Ephesians 1:13, 4:30) unto the day of redemption, and the Holy Spirit works 24/7 in the life of the believer UNTIL the day of Jesus Christ(Philippians 1:6).

Jesus promised the believer and said, I will NEVER leave nor forsake you(Hebrews 13:5). Had the man in open incest not repented God would have taken him home to heaven prematurely(1Cor. 5:5). It's God who qualifies the believer(Colossians 1:11,12) and He is able to keep that which is committed unto Him against that day(2Timothy 1:12). NOTHING can separate a believer from God(Romans 8:38,39). It's God who KEEPS the believer by His power(1Peter 1:5).

He or she who is born again by the Holy Spirit is a NEW creation(2Cor. 5:17) and at his or her core is the seed or DNA of Almighty God and is sinless(1John 3:9). The believer is made the righteousness of God in Him(2Cor. 5:21), IMPUTED with the GIFT of righteousness(Romans 5:17) making him or her fit for heaven. Jesus said, I give them ETERNAL life and NONE of them will perish(John 10:28-30). The believers' life is HID with Christ in God(Colossians 3:3). The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God(Romans 8:16).

God, Who hath also SEALED us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts(2Cor. 1:22) which is the engagement ring to His Bride and a bit of heaven on earth.

Noose · Sep 6, 2019

edwinrad said:

Salvation is a free GIFT(Ephesians 2:8,9) and the gifts and calling of God are IRREVOCABLE(Romans 11:29). Jesus said, Those the Father gives me I lose NONE(John 6:39). Every believer is SEALED with the Holy Spirit(Ephesians 1:13, 4:30) unto the day of redemption, and the Holy Spirit works 24/7 in the life of the believer UNTIL the day of Jesus Christ(Philippians 1:6).

Jesus promised the believer and said, I will NEVER leave nor forsake you(Hebrews 13:5). Had the man in open incest not repented God would have taken him home to heaven prematurely(1Cor. 5:5). It's God who qualifies the believer(Colossians 1:11,12) and He is able to keep that which is committed unto Him against that day(2Timothy 1:12). NOTHING can separate a believer from God(Romans 8:38,39). It's God who KEEPS the believer by His power(1Peter 1:5).

He or she who is born again by the Holy Spirit is a NEW creation(2Cor. 5:17) and at his or her core is the seed or DNA of Almighty God and is sinless(1John 3:9). The believer is made the righteousness of God in Him(2Cor. 5:21), IMPUTED with the GIFT of righteousness(Romans 5:17) making him or her fit for heaven. Jesus said, I give them ETERNAL life and NONE of them will perish(John 10:28-30). The believers' life is HID with Christ in God(Colossians 3:3). The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God(Romans 8:16).

God, Who hath also SEALED us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts(2Cor. 1:22) which is the engagement ring to His Bride and a bit of heaven on earth.

All these remain a promise for those that will be victorious.

Whispered · Sep 6, 2019

edwinrad said:

Salvation is a free GIFT(Ephesians 2:8,9) and the gifts and calling of God are IRREVOCABLE(Romans 11:29). Jesus said, Those the Father gives me I lose NONE(John 6:39). Every believer is SEALED with the Holy Spirit(Ephesians 1:13, 4:30) unto the day of redemption, and the Holy Spirit works 24/7 in the life of the believer UNTIL the day of Jesus Christ(Philippians 1:6).

Jesus promised the believer and said, I will NEVER leave nor forsake you(Hebrews 13:5). Had the man in open incest not repented God would have taken him home to heaven prematurely(1Cor. 5:5). It's God who qualifies the believer(Colossians 1:11,12) and He is able to keep that which is committed unto Him against that day(2Timothy 1:12). NOTHING can separate a believer from God(Romans 8:38,39). It's God who KEEPS the believer by His power(1Peter 1:5).

He or she who is born again by the Holy Spirit is a NEW creation(2Cor. 5:17) and at his or her core is the seed or DNA of Almighty God and is sinless(1John 3:9). The believer is made the righteousness of God in Him(2Cor. 5:21), IMPUTED with the GIFT of righteousness(Romans 5:17) making him or her fit for heaven. Jesus said, I give them ETERNAL life and NONE of them will perish(John 10:28-30). The believers' life is HID with Christ in God(Colossians 3:3). The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God(Romans 8:16).

God, Who hath also SEALED us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts(2Cor. 1:22) which is the engagement ring to His Bride and a bit of heaven on earth.

May Noose and others who believe we have to labor to stay Saved have their eyes opened to these facts.

Waggles · Sep 6, 2019

notuptome said:

NO and very wrong.
unscriptural and not supported in the book of Acts and the epistles.

Waggles · Sep 6, 2019

ForestGreenCook said:

I did -
and you keep replying with complete doctrinal gobbledegook and waffle .

Waggles · Sep 6, 2019

ForestGreenCook said:

So what happens when a fallen Christian does not repent?

and while a son or daughter of God is disobedient how can there be a confidence of salvation?

mailmandan · Sep 6, 2019

notuptome said:

Amen! Ephesians 1:13 - In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

Ephesians 4:30 - And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed unto/for the day of redemption.

cv5 · Sep 6, 2019

mailmandan said:

Amen! Ephesians 1:13 - In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

Ephesians 4:30 - And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed unto/for the day of redemption.

When God Himself affixes the seal, who has the power to break it?

Why I now believe that salvation can be lost.

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