The written word: Could we survive as Christians without it?
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The atheist who believes in the theory of evolution does not see God in creation. Romans 1:16,17 To EVER ONE THAT BELIEVETH, for therein is the righteousness of God revealed. Not to the unbelieving natural man. The rest of the chapter goes on to explain just how corrupt a child of God can be by his nature.
Hi again Whispered, I certainly agree with you about that 
God created ex nihilo, so there was no source outside of Him.
My concern was with the wording in your earlier post, that God was somehow "part" of His own creation (because that's actually the basic belief of Pantheism, not Christianity).
~Deut
God created ex nihilo, so there was no source outside of Him.My concern was with the wording in your earlier post, that God was somehow "part" of His own creation (because that's actually the basic belief of Pantheism, not Christianity).
~Deut
"For since the creation of the world his invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead." The Book of Romans chapter 1 verse 20
"The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in Him all things were created, things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together ." The Book of Colossians chapter 1 verse 16
How Everything Gets So Confusing, and What To Do:
First of all, to ForestGreenCook... It's all good.
No worries.
We're all going to have misunderstandings.
And all those communication mishaps I talked about... I know all about them because I do them too, lol.
Why use external analogies, or stories, in a theology discussion?
Sometimes I use external analogies on purpose.
I go outside of scripture, and just use simple analogies and stories.
Why?
I do it because humans are kind of weird, lol.
We humans do some odd things.
Everyone here probably has perfectly good "common sense" about most normal things in life.
Most Christians do.
But a weird thing happens when all of these sensible people discuss theology.
Because theology is so vast, and infinite, and deals with realities so far beyond us... we can be so overwhelmed by the vastness of these infinities, and the unfathomable holiness of God, that we sometimes leave our plain old common sense behind.
Well, God didn't give us good sense, and rationality, so we could just leave it behind.
Sometimes when it looks like perfectly sensible people have left some of their common sense behind, I take a different tack.
I step outside of theology, back to the ordinary world where everything looks much simpler, and I use external stories and analogies: it's to help people to refocus, and to bring their common sense back into play.
God is always sensible:
humans get "data jams", but God is always sensible.
Humans, when feeling overwhelmed by the vastness of theological truths, often just fail to see the obvious.
We simply become overwhelmed.
This doesn't mean we're stupid.
It's just a thing that happens.
When too much data comes in, the system can't sort it all out!
We all have computers; we all understand this.
Too much data jams up the system.
The infinities of God... that's a lot of data!
Sometimes the vast infinities of God give us so much data that our "systems get jammed."
We leave our common sense behind, we just leave it behind sometimes as our minds try desperately to jump through the conundrums, and navigate the paradoxes.
And our minds don't ask us about this... they just take off.
The human mind ALWAYS tries to find a way through problems and paradox.
It just takes off!
But this isn't the way to solve the data jam.
We have to slow it all down.
The way to solve the data jam is to slow down... just get back to common sense... just apply our plain old common sense to the scripture, and slowly, methodically, sort out the jam.
God is always sensible:
many spiritual truths seem IRRATIONAL, but they become RATIONAL AGAIN as soon as we NAVIGATE THE DATA JAM, and find GOD'S PERSPECTIVE.
God is never irrational, but he does go about things in ways that SEEM irrational to those who won't believe.
Examples:
1. Does it seem rational that God uses "the foolish things to confound the wise"?
Well, it isn't rational to the lost world, because they don't WANT God's perspective on it.
But from God's perspective, it's quite rational and sensible.
God uses weak things to show his power and glory because that is simply the MOST PROFOUND and NOTICEABLE way to do it!
Very sensible.
God uses the "foolishness of preaching", and vessels "made of clay", and he uses, sometimes, the weakest among us to proclaim his own greatness.
Isaiah 55:9 "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts."
He pushes down the mighty, he raises up the weak... and it all seems very rational if we only have God's perspective.
Once we get God's perspective, there are no conundrums... we see that everything God does is very sensible.
2. Does it seem rational that God would remain partially "hidden" from humans, instead of writing his name in every cloud, or appearing daily in Time Square for all to see?
Well, it isn't rational to the lost world, because they don't WANT God's perspective on it.
But from God's perspective, it's quite rational and sensible.
God doesn't want mankind to search for him with their eyes, he want's mankind to search for him with their hearts... we must look for God with our hearts, and we must have faith.
Hebrews 11:6 "But without faith it is impossible to please him:"
There ARE many evidence for God we can actually SEE... but God always remains a bit hidden so that we still need to have faith. This faith isn't a "blind" faith, but it is still faith.
If your heart does not look for God, your eyes will never see him, not even in all the evidence of creation... you are not blinded by your failed eyes, you are blinded by a failed heart.
We are not blinded by failing eyes, we are blinded by failing hearts.
God is always rational and sensible, but he often does things that SEEM irrational until we get his perspective.
So when spiritual truths seem irrational, or nonsensical, we need to slow down, and look for God's perspective.
His perspective will always be rational.
Conclusion:
1. The vast infinities of God and of theological truths can, very rightly, overwhelm us, and cause a sort of "data jam."
2. Our minds are always active, trying to find a way through data, and conundrums... our minds will just take off without us.
3. This scenario often leaves us in a spot where we've kind of left common sense behind, accidentally, and we've arrived at some conclusions that don't always make the best sense.
4. We're all in the same boat; all of our minds go through the same processes.
5. Recap: God is sensible and rational, but we can be so overwhelmed by God's infinities that we lose track of sensibility... we don't mean to... it just happens.
6. Solution: The solution is to slow down: apply our common sense to scripture, and slowly, methodically, sort out the "data jam."
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No, the bible teaches that God is part of his creation. As the two passages I shared demonstrate.
When God is the source of all things and from God all things are made and there is no thing made without God, then all things created are created of and from God. Therefore God is part of all his creation.
To think otherwise is to imagine there is something not God that exists in all that is created by God.
When God is the source of all things and from God all things are made and there is no thing made without God, then all things created are created of and from God. Therefore God is part of all his creation.
To think otherwise is to imagine there is something not God that exists in all that is created by God.
If God was part of us, then we wouldn't need to die to self to acquire part in God's being. God fills us where we are not.
Maybe it's not the best analogy, but I believe it's more like the water and sea sponges.
Water permeates the sea sponge, and allows sea sponges to live and multiply in it, and although the sponge is filled with water, water is not the sponge, or part of it, the sponge lives in it, and it fills where the sponge is not. If the water removes itself, the sponge dies and crumbles.
Maybe it's not the best analogy, but I believe it's more like the water and sea sponges.
Water permeates the sea sponge, and allows sea sponges to live and multiply in it, and although the sponge is filled with water, water is not the sponge, or part of it, the sponge lives in it, and it fills where the sponge is not. If the water removes itself, the sponge dies and crumbles.
This is a very subtle and messy topic, and we really need to be careful about HOW we use our terms.
To say "God made everything" is not the same as saying "Everything has a piece of God inside it" or "All things are made from pieces of God."
God doesn't have pieces.
But God IS all powerful.
Therefore, God is quite powerful enough to create the material world out of pure nothingness, without anything having to be made from "pieces" of anything.
This is called Creatio Ex Nihilo... creation out of nothing.
This has been the orthodox view of God's creation for millennia.
God doesn't need to pull out "pieces of himself" in order to make things... and in fact, he couldn't even if he wanted to: he's immaterial, and he doesn't have any pieces.
God doesn't have any "pieces" from which anything can be made.
Nothing immaterial can have "pieces."
Since nothing immaterial can have pieces, the material world cannot be made from "pieces" of the immaterial.
To put it another way:
The material is not made "out of" the immaterial,
but it is made "by" the immaterial.
This is all very weird and messy stuff.
It's just really weird and messy, and so we have to be very careful in the exact wording and language we use to talk about it.
God Bless.
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Something to think about -
This may clear up some problems:
If God was "part of" his own creation, and all matter had pieces of God within it...
Then bigger objects would contain more of God than smaller objects.
If I live in a small house and you live in a big house, then your house would have more God in it than my house!
Clearly this is ridiculous.
Your house can't have more God than my house just because it's bigger.
Great theologians have sorted through these issues for a very long time.
These questions and issues aren't new.
Great men have been writing about these issues, and discussing them, for a long time.
That's why the great creeds of the faith use very, very precise language.
The language is very careful and precise in order to avoid any kind of confusion or error.
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This may clear up some problems:
If God was "part of" his own creation, and all matter had pieces of God within it...
Then bigger objects would contain more of God than smaller objects.
If I live in a small house and you live in a big house, then your house would have more God in it than my house!
Clearly this is ridiculous.
Your house can't have more God than my house just because it's bigger.
Great theologians have sorted through these issues for a very long time.
These questions and issues aren't new.
Great men have been writing about these issues, and discussing them, for a long time.
That's why the great creeds of the faith use very, very precise language.
The language is very careful and precise in order to avoid any kind of confusion or error.
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You are somewhat confused. So let's take a mundane example. Let's assume that you are an avid and expert gardener and you have created your outstanding garden from scratch. You spend a lot of time within that garden, and give your flowers and shrubs a great deal of attention. Now does that make you a part of the garden?
The same applies to God. He created everything out of nothing, and He is present throughout His creation. But He is not His creation. He is outside His creation even while He is within His creation, just like you would be in your garden.
The same applies to God. He created everything out of nothing, and He is present throughout His creation. But He is not His creation. He is outside His creation even while He is within His creation, just like you would be in your garden.
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It is metaphorical. Did a piece of your actual anatomy die? No, it did not. You die to your sense of selfishness when God awakens your heart and spirit to His presence. The world comes into focus as the illusion of importance it once had in our life. God takes up residence because God awakens what has laid dormant, veiled, within us as our awareness of Him, when we were in this world, and of this world. Thinking worldly things should occupy our attention.
Here's another metaphor that may help. You are an individual and yet you would not exist at all were you not comprised of the characteristics, the atoms, the genetics, your parents gave to your creation in the womb of your mother. You carry your dad and your mother's genetics within so as to be who you are as a reflection of the two of them.
The same thing happens with the entire human race. God created the first of us in the creator's image and likeness. And then God breathed into Adam's nostrils and Adam became a living soul.
Do we kid ourselves and imagine that was only once? Or do we realize that Adam was created by God and from God's being as was Eve, who came from the rib God created within Adam, and made them both alive by his power and will? And as such we carry the "genetics" of our parents who's ancestors were the first of our kind ever created by the supreme creator of all things created.
With so many passages in scripture that tell us all things are of God, I do not care to believe humans are the exception when the first humans were created in the image and likeness of God.
If we are not part of God, as are all things God created, creates, what then is that created within all of creation made from? Something other than God? If so, what would that be? In the beginning God created.
But not this? Not that? How is that possible?
Some may do so and that is their prerogative.
Here's another metaphor that may help. You are an individual and yet you would not exist at all were you not comprised of the characteristics, the atoms, the genetics, your parents gave to your creation in the womb of your mother. You carry your dad and your mother's genetics within so as to be who you are as a reflection of the two of them.
The same thing happens with the entire human race. God created the first of us in the creator's image and likeness. And then God breathed into Adam's nostrils and Adam became a living soul.
Do we kid ourselves and imagine that was only once? Or do we realize that Adam was created by God and from God's being as was Eve, who came from the rib God created within Adam, and made them both alive by his power and will? And as such we carry the "genetics" of our parents who's ancestors were the first of our kind ever created by the supreme creator of all things created.
With so many passages in scripture that tell us all things are of God, I do not care to believe humans are the exception when the first humans were created in the image and likeness of God.
If we are not part of God, as are all things God created, creates, what then is that created within all of creation made from? Something other than God? If so, what would that be? In the beginning God created.
But not this? Not that? How is that possible?
Some may do so and that is their prerogative.
It's one of those things that we will unfortunately not know exactly how it works until we die. The Bible rather gives us suggestions about this than exact specifics. I think we can agree that God is present everywhere, this is definitely stated. But just because something is of God, or in God, doesn't automatically mean that something is actually God. It seems to me like jumping to conclusions without sufficient evidence from the Bible... like if the chair fills up space, jumping to conclusion that since chair and space overlap that chair is therefore space, etc. Well, that's just what I think. Either way, whatever we believe about it this is not essential to salvation, following Jesus is important, and thank God because otherwise we would really be lost among our differing opinions and conclusions.
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Hello again ForestGreenCook, this treatise of the Apostle Paul's (Romans 1:18-3:23) concerns/describes ~unbelieving~ Jews & Gentiles, not true believers. It teaches that ALL of us, while we are still in our natural/fallen state, are under 1. sin and 2. the wrath of God (which are the two things, in particular, that Jesus saves us from, IOW, from sin in this life, and from the Father's wrath, judgment and condemnation in the age to come).
"Believers" are no longer under the wrath of God, nor do we suppress the truth of God in unrighteousness .. Romans 1:18 (nor are any of us still under sin .. Romans 3:9 [see below], rather, we are under grace).
True believers have been ~changed~ by God. We are all given a new heart and a new spirit, the permanent indwelling of the Holy Spirit, and the mind of Christ. He regenerates us/makes us alive (spiritually), causes us to be born again and makes us His workmanship/masterpiece, as wholly new creatures in Christ .. e.g. Ezekiel 36:26-27; John 3:3, 5:24; 1 Corinthians 2:12-16; 2 Corinthians 5:17; Ephesians 2:4-5, 8-10.
He also continues His mighty work in us throughout our lives, to sanctify us and to preserve us in the faith (to see us safely through this life to be with Him in Glory .. Philippians 1:6, 2:13; 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24; Hebrews 7:25), because we were given and have therefore come into possession of, "eternal life", and that from the moment that we first believed .. John 3:18, 5:24; Romans 8:1.
If a list like this one is descriptive (even in small part) of someone who claims to be a Christian......................
.............................then their ~claim~ should not be considered to be anything more than that (because such a person has never known God/has never been born again .. cf Matthew 7:22-23; 1 John 2:19).
As Paul said to the Christians in Corinth (concerning his description of those who will ~not~ inherit eternal life .. 1 Corinthians 6:9-10), "such ~WERE~ some of you" .. 1 Corinthians 6:11.
~Deut
p.s. - here is another one of the Apostle Paul's descriptions of all who are still 'outside' of Christ.
"Believers" are no longer under the wrath of God, nor do we suppress the truth of God in unrighteousness .. Romans 1:18 (nor are any of us still under sin .. Romans 3:9 [see below], rather, we are under grace
).True believers have been ~changed~ by God. We are all given a new heart and a new spirit, the permanent indwelling of the Holy Spirit, and the mind of Christ. He regenerates us/makes us alive (spiritually), causes us to be born again and makes us His workmanship/masterpiece, as wholly new creatures in Christ .. e.g. Ezekiel 36:26-27; John 3:3, 5:24; 1 Corinthians 2:12-16; 2 Corinthians 5:17; Ephesians 2:4-5, 8-10.
He also continues His mighty work in us throughout our lives, to sanctify us and to preserve us in the faith (to see us safely through this life to be with Him in Glory .. Philippians 1:6, 2:13; 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24; Hebrews 7:25), because we were given and have therefore come into possession of, "eternal life", and that from the moment that we first believed .. John 3:18, 5:24; Romans 8:1.
If a list like this one is descriptive (even in small part) of someone who claims to be a Christian......................
Romans 1
29 filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; they are gossips,
30 slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents,
31 without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful;
32 and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them.
.............................then their ~claim~ should not be considered to be anything more than that (because such a person has never known God/has never been born again .. cf Matthew 7:22-23; 1 John 2:19).
As Paul said to the Christians in Corinth (concerning his description of those who will ~not~ inherit eternal life .. 1 Corinthians 6:9-10), "such ~WERE~ some of you" .. 1 Corinthians 6:11.
~Deut
p.s. - here is another one of the Apostle Paul's descriptions of all who are still 'outside' of Christ.
Romans 3
9 Both Jews and Greeks are all under sin;
10 as it is written,
“THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;
11 THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS,
THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;
12 ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS;
THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD,
THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE.”
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It's one of those things that we will unfortunately not know exactly how it works until we die. The Bible rather gives us suggestions about this than exact specifics. I think we can agree that God is present everywhere, this is definitely stated. But just because something is of God, or in God, doesn't automatically mean that something is actually God. It seems to me like jumping to conclusions without sufficient evidence from the Bible... like if the chair fills up space, jumping to conclusion that since chair and space overlap that chair is therefore space, etc. Well, that's just what I think. Either way, whatever we believe about it this is not essential to salvation, following Jesus is important, and thank God because otherwise we would really be lost among our differing opinions and conclusions.
I want to clear up the misunderstanding that may think I said all things that exist are God. No, that was not my intention. I did not intend it to be understood that everything is God.
What I said was:
No, the bible teaches that God is part of his creation. As the two passages I shared demonstrate.
When God is the source of all things and from God all things are made and there is no thing made without God, then all things created are created of and from God. Therefore God is part of all his creation.
To think otherwise is to imagine there is something not God that exists in all that is created by God.
What I said was:
No, the bible teaches that God is part of his creation. As the two passages I shared demonstrate.
When God is the source of all things and from God all things are made and there is no thing made without God, then all things created are created of and from God. Therefore God is part of all his creation.
To think otherwise is to imagine there is something not God that exists in all that is created by God.
That is to say, God's essence is that which can be found in all of creation. Which is why I later added the human parentage metaphor to communicate what I meant.
I went looking for a resource , Biblical resource, that may assist in understanding that is also supported by God's word. I think this may suffice.
A Plain Description of the Essence and Attributes of God, Out of the Holy Scripture, So Far as Every Christian must Competently Know, and Necessarily Believe, that Will be Saves.
Although no creature can define what God is, because he is incomprehensible (Psal. cxliii.3) and dwelling in inaccessible light (1 Tim. vi.16); yet it has pleased his majesty to reveal himself to us in his word, so far as our weak capacity can best conceive him. Thus:
God is that one spiritual and infinitely perfect essence, whose being is of himself eternally (Deut. i.4; iv.35; xxxii.39; vi.4; Isa. xlv.5-8; 1 Cor. viii.4; Eph. iv.5, 6; 1 Tim. ii.5; John iv.24; 2 Cor. iii.17; 1 Kings viii.17; Psal. cxlvii.5; Deut. xxxii.4; Exod. iii.14; 1 Cor. viii.6; Acts xvii.25; Rom. xi.36.)
In the Divine Essence we are to consider two things: First, The diverse manner of being therein; secondly, The attributes thereof.
The diverse manner of being therein, are called Persons (Heb. i.3.)
A person is a distinct subsistence of the whole Godhead (John i.1; v.31, 37; xiv.16; Col. ii.9; John xiv.9.)
The article continues @ https://biblehub.com/library/bayly/the_practice_of_piety/a_plain_description_of_the.htm
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1. Omnipresence:
Omnipresence is an EXTRAORDINARILY complicated and difficult divine attribute for us to sort through.
The concept is just full of conundrums of every sort.
Great theologians and christian philosophers have spent centuries sorting through it, and discussing it from every angle.
We CAN take scripture, a lot of different scripture, and then do a whole lot of slow, logical thinking, and eventually sort through it.
But it's a very complicated issue.
So, if you have some different views on it than me, I'm certainly not going to attack you for that.
Nonetheless, it really is an important issue, and it really does deserve some serious discussion.
And again, the reason we have different views on what omnipresence is, and how it actually works, is because it is just extremely strange and nuanced. We are genuinely dealing with attributes of divinity that are very very different than us, and therefore, extremely hard to think about. We simply cannot think about divine omnipresence in the same terms or categories in which we think about human presence. It is something completely alien to us. It deserves some very careful and methodical attention.
2. Semantics:
All careful discussions of theology are going to require careful attention to semantics... otherwise we end up in confusion.
We cannot even do basic exegesis of scripture without careful attention to semantics.
We often throw this term around like it's some kind of pretentious intellectual pariah to be avoided, but it's actually very necessary, and it's something we all use daily in our ordinary speech.
Semantics isn't a pariah.
It's a normal part of everyday communication.
3. Slowing Down is Good:
Sometimes we're talking about very complicated and difficult issues.
It's good if we all slow down a bit, take a deep breath, and relax.
Omnipresence is one of those complicated issues.
It's deserving of some real care and attention.
God Bless.
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Well it does indeed take a great deal of effort to mask contempt for others opinions that differ from yours, I will say that.
That you admit you will attack me for not abiding in your thoughts is appreciated. I consider myself forewarned of and from someone who intends attack due to pride and self centered hubris.
I am not here to feed that.
That you admit you will attack me for not abiding in your thoughts is appreciated. I consider myself forewarned of and from someone who intends attack due to pride and self centered hubris.
I am not here to feed that.