Trinity haters on CC

[UnitedWithChrist]

Tertullian making a trinity like statement is not a group of Christians proclaiming a belief, that would come 75 years later, like I already said,

I didnt say principles, elements, or bits and pieces, I said a formal teaching of the doctrine of the trinity, I even gave you an example of what that meant.

There was little “force” applied to the Arias generation nor was the much force applied to the next few generations, we do not see that until around the 600s.

The true church, you mean rome? They are the ones that killed Jesus, killed/imprisoned the 12 Apostles and st Paul, that church?
Interesting that when we apply what Jesus taught, fruits, to these two churches, rome and alexandria, we get the opposite of what your saying.
First of all the Alexandrian Christians never killed people to spread their teachings, they also didnt have a political agenda being as Christianity was one of many beliefs in the area and all were welcome.

This is so incredibly ignorant....but it is very typical of heretics who have spun church history to accomodate their persecution complex.

Rome was only one bishopric of several in the true church. Major bishoprics were Jerusalem, Antioch, Alexandria, Constantinople and Rome.

The bishop of Rome, Sylvester, didn't even show up at the Council of Nicea. He sent a few representatives instead.

Rome didn't even have a "pope" in any sense until about 600 AD, with Pope Gregory. Even then, the Roman Catholic Church didn't exist in the form we know it until after the Great Schism. There were bold claims to supremacy after about 450 ad, but they considered themselves to be one of several bishoprics of the true church until the Great Schism.

When you read history, you must realize that the word "catholic" means, basically, pure in teachings. It came about largely to distinguish itself from Arians. Arians and anti-Trinitarians would not have been "catholic" in the sense that they were not real Christians.

Concerning the ones who killed Jesus and the 12 apostles, it's laughable that you claim they were killed by Roman Catholics since they didn't even exist in the form you are claiming. Jesus was killed by the Roman government at the demand of the Jews. The apostles were martyred by different groups, including Jews and secular Romans (not Roman Christians..that's crazy).

By the way, Alexandrian Christians were not Arians...Arians are not Christians. Alexandria had a bishopric of true believers, but they were not Arians. Arians are false believers.

For everyone else, realize that I, too, was caught up in this nutty, conspiracy theory view of Christianity. My guess is that jaybird88 is sitting at home in a bunker surrounded by cultic literature that is feeding his theology. He probably doesn't have a fellowship at all, and if he does, it is some cultic group (perhaps Sabbathkeepers) who hold similar conspiracy theory level views that feed their vain minds with a martyr complex. They view themselves as being the lone defenders of the true faith.

I suggest that you read good books on Church history, such as Nick Needham's 2000 Years of Christ's Power, and realize that church history displays the relentless march of Christians toward glory, with sinful episodes and growth along the way.

And, realize that there are dozens of cultic groups teaching the same essential conspiracy theory level views as jaybird88 is portraying. Don't be fooled by them, and led off into some goofy cultic movement.

I will tell you one thing those types of people don't talk about much: Jesus. After leaving these groups, I found that out. They are obsessed with their little proof-texts claiming that Christians are a false version of the truth. And, in the process, they fail to give Jesus the honor he is due. That is why they hate the teaching that he is God....they don't give honor to Him.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

does this mean you dont have any examples of non trin churches persecuting people?

The Arians conducted persecutions after Constantine died. In fact, they almost overcame true Christianity.

Are you familiar with this?

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

The Arians conducted persecutions after Constantine died. In fact, they almost overcame true Christianity.

Are you familiar with this?

The author of the Arian heresy was Arius, a native of Lybia, and a priest of Alexandria, who, in A.D. 318, began to publish his errors. He was condemned by a council of Lybian and Egyptian bishops, and that sentence was confirmed by the Council of Nice, A.D. 325. After the death of Constantine the Great, the Arians found means to ingratiate themselves into the favor of the emperor Constantinus, his son and successor in the east; and hence a persecution was raised against the orthodox bishops and clergy. The celebrated Athanasius, and other bishops, were banished, and their sees filled with Arians.

In Egypt and Lybia, thirty bishops were martyred, and many other Christians cruelly tormented; and, A.D. 386, George, the Arian bishop of Alexandria, under the authority of the emperor, began a persecution in that city and its environs, and carried it on with the most infernal severity. He was assisted in his diabolical malice by Catophonius, governor of Egypt; Sebastian, general of the Egyptian forces; Faustinus, the treasurer; and Heraclius, a Roman officer.

The persecutions now raged in such a manner that the clergy were driven from Alexandria, their churches were shut, and the severities practiced by the Arian heretics were as great as those that had been practiced by the pagan idolaters. If a man, accused of being a Christian, made his escape, then his whole family were massacred, and his effects confiscated.

From the Foxe Book of Martyrs

 

[jaybird88]

This is so incredibly ignorant....but it is very typical of heretics who have spun church history to accomodate their persecution complex.

Rome was only one bishopric of several in the true church. Major bishoprics were Jerusalem, Antioch, Alexandria, Constantinople and Rome.

The bishop of Rome, Sylvester, didn't even show up at the Council of Nicea. He sent a few representatives instead.

Rome didn't even have a "pope" in any sense until about 600 AD, with Pope Gregory. Even then, the Roman Catholic Church didn't exist in the form we know it until after the Great Schism. There were bold claims to supremacy after about 450 ad, but they considered themselves to be one of several bishoprics of the true church until the Great Schism.

When you read history, you must realize that the word "catholic" means, basically, pure in teachings. It came about largely to distinguish itself from Arians. Arians and anti-Trinitarians would not have been "catholic" in the sense that they were not real Christians.

Concerning the ones who killed Jesus and the 12 apostles, it's laughable that you claim they were killed by Roman Catholics since they didn't even exist in the form you are claiming. Jesus was killed by the Roman government at the demand of the Jews. The apostles were martyred by different groups, including Jews and secular Romans (not Roman Christians..that's crazy).

By the way, Alexandrian Christians were not Arians...Arians are not Christians. Alexandria had a bishopric of true believers, but they were not Arians. Arians are false believers.

For everyone else, realize that I, too, was caught up in this nutty, conspiracy theory view of Christianity. My guess is that jaybird88 is sitting at home in a bunker surrounded by cultic literature that is feeding his theology. He probably doesn't have a fellowship at all, and if he does, it is some cultic group (perhaps Sabbathkeepers) who hold similar conspiracy theory level views that feed their vain minds with a martyr complex. They view themselves as being the lone defenders of the true faith.

I suggest that you read good books on Church history, such as Nick Needham's 2000 Years of Christ's Power, and realize that church history displays the relentless march of Christians toward glory, with sinful episodes and growth along the way.

And, realize that there are dozens of cultic groups teaching the same essential conspiracy theory level views as jaybird88 is portraying. Don't be fooled by them, and led off into some goofy cultic movement.

I will tell you one thing those types of people don't talk about much: Jesus. After leaving these groups, I found that out. They are obsessed with their little proof-texts claiming that Christians are a false version of the truth. And, in the process, they fail to give Jesus the honor he is due. That is why they hate the teaching that he is God....they don't give honor to Him.

I have no idea where your going with all the rome bishops, what catholic means and popes?

rome means imperial rome, and yes, they were the ones that killed Jesus, Herod , the governor, the corrupt priest leadership, all roman. Surely you dont believe all those leaders were installed by the Jewish people?

What exactly are you thinking is some crazy conspiracy theory? You have used this a few times now but have yet to point out one single thing and try and disprove it with facts.

I never said Alexandria and arias were one and the same. Alexandria had a long history of open mindedness, that was before rome came in, cracked heads and stomped out the idea of people thinking for themselves.

And the formal teaching of the trinity, did you have no response to that one, is that what most of this long winded filibuster was all about, dodging the point?

 

[jaybird88]

The Arians conducted persecutions after Constantine died. In fact, they almost overcame true Christianity.

Are you familiar with this?

never heard of it, i would love to see some examples of these churches giving orders for everyone to go out and kill trins. when exactly did this start? the very idea contradicts the facts which show a very, very, very long history in Alexandria of freedom of worship. Jews wrote the LXX there, wrote it in the middle of a very non Jewish community with no fear of persicution. hindus, Celts, Buddhist, etc all came there to discuss ideas and learn from one another. that was the philosophy of Alexandria.

 

[garee]

Hi Garee, not sure, so I am asking this question for clarification. Do you believe in three persons in the godhead?

Not a salvation issue

It would seem the idea was formed by Catholisicim in order to try and make God into a man as us. Giving their queen of heaven a purpose as if deity came from flesh and blood having a beginning .Rather than that dwelt in the Son of man whose flesh profited, for nothing.

The verse below applies to the Son of man, Jesus . No power according to the flesh

2 Corinthians 4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us

Godhead simply mean divinity or divine nature .It does not mean three trinity

Its another of the doctrines I have revisited and it seems there is no relationship with the Trinity and the word Godhead at all. Godhead refers to God the Father..

I think the scriptures use two attributes to form the government of God . Father and Son. Jesus said I and the father are one God. Two working together in perfect harmony and submission. The Father representing the head the greater position not greater person and the Son wiling submissiveness.

Colossians 1:19 KJV “For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;”

It pleased the Father that in the Son of man ...dwelt the fullness of the father not of coming from the Son of man ”The father remains the unseen head

One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. Ephesians 4:6

1 Corinthians 11:3 King James Version (KJV) But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

 

[PS]

That's right. The actual term for the Christian belief is monotheistic trinitarianism.

Rubbish.

 

[garee]

Jesus Christ as the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity is equal to the Father:

"Behold, a virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and his name shall be called Emmanuel, which means, God with us..." (St. Matt. 1, 23);

Yes God with us not God is us. Jesus had the same treasure in a body of death .No power according to what the eyes see.

2 Corinthians 4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

Not of the Son of man, Jesus . He replied his flesh profits for nothing,zip, nada . Many disciples that were hoping literal flesh and blood could profit for something walked away in unbeleif, no faith. The froward generation spoken of, called the evil generation, natural unconvereted mankind in Adam all die.. . Not of the born again generation, the generation of Christ. In Christ all live.

 

[jaybird88]

The author of the Arian heresy was Arius, a native of Lybia, and a priest of Alexandria, who, in A.D. 318, began to publish his errors. He was condemned by a council of Lybian and Egyptian bishops, and that sentence was confirmed by the Council of Nice, A.D. 325. After the death of Constantine the Great, the Arians found means to ingratiate themselves into the favor of the emperor Constantinus, his son and successor in the east; and hence a persecution was raised against the orthodox bishops and clergy. The celebrated Athanasius, and other bishops, were banished, and their sees filled with Arians.

Constantine II was an arian but its not likely he had much involvement in religious persicutions. he was only emperor three years and for those three years he was occupied with his invasion of Italy, which he lost.

In Egypt and Lybia, thirty bishops were martyred, and many other Christians cruelly tormented; and, A.D. 386, George, the Arian bishop of Alexandria, under the authority of the emperor, began a persecution in that city and its environs, and carried it on with the most infernal severity. He was assisted in his diabolical malice by Catophonius, governor of Egypt; Sebastian, general of the Egyptian forces; Faustinus, the treasurer; and Heraclius, a Roman officer.

The persecutions now raged in such a manner that the clergy were driven from Alexandria, their churches were shut, and the severities practiced by the Arian heretics were as great as those that had been practiced by the pagan idolaters. If a man, accused of being a Christian, made his escape, then his whole family were massacred, and his effects confiscated.

From the Foxe Book of Martyrs

George would be the last person i would use for an example, he may have been an arian Christian but he was not supported by them, he was hated by most all his subjects, including arians.
most of this fighting had nothing to do with the trinity, it was mostly about the nature of Jesus so its pretty much irreverent.

 

[PS]

God is Spirit. (The Father.)
Jesus was born of the Spirit.
The Spirit (The Father) is in the Son.
The Son, born of the Holy Spirit came among us.
The Son is Father God with us.

 

[Dino246]

Yes God with us not God is us. Jesus had the same treasure in a body of death .No power according to what the eyes see.

Your post is a response to someone else's statement. What in their statement makes you think they are advocating "God is us"?

Here's the statement for your reference:

"Jesus Christ as the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity is equal to the Father:
"Behold, a virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and his name shall be called Emmanuel, which means, God with us..." (St. Matt. 1, 23);"

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

I have no idea where your going with all the rome bishops, what catholic means and popes?

rome means imperial rome, and yes, they were the ones that killed Jesus, Herod , the governor, the corrupt priest leadership, all roman. Surely you dont believe all those leaders were installed by the Jewish people?

What exactly are you thinking is some crazy conspiracy theory? You have used this a few times now but have yet to point out one single thing and try and disprove it with facts.

I never said Alexandria and arias were one and the same. Alexandria had a long history of open mindedness, that was before rome came in, cracked heads and stomped out the idea of people thinking for themselves.

And the formal teaching of the trinity, did you have no response to that one, is that what most of this long winded filibuster was all about, dodging the point?

The Trinity doctrine was experienced by true believers, first through the Incarnation, and then through Pentecost. The deity of the Son was revealed through Christ and his incarnation, and the Personhood of the Holy Spirit was revealed through Pentecost and subsequent beliefs. The seeds of these teachings were present as early as the OT, but developed progressively over time, like an acorn develops into a tree.

Jesus did, in fact, teach that he is God, and one with the Father. Jesus did, in fact, teach that a third Person, the Holy Spirit, would mediate his presence, and that this Holy Spirit was another Advocate, like Jesus, but not Jesus.

So, the key elements of the Trinity are taught CLEARLY in Scripture.

And, just like the Church did not understand that the Mosaic Law was replaced, until at least 11 years after Jesus' crucifixion, the Trinity doctrine developed over time. The need became apparent due to heretical teachings of the Arians and anti-Trinitarians. Real Christians needed to protect their faith from being eroded.

And, as I have said, those who deny the deity of Jesus are not giving honor to Him. Jesus is to receive honor just like the Father. In fact, you cannot honor the Father without honoring Jesus. You can't even know the Father unless you honor the Son.

By the way, do you know what Immanuel means? It means God with us. Do you know that Jesus accepted worship? Only God is to be worshipped.

What I mean by conspiracy theory is the insistence that Arians, amongst others, promote regarding Constantine the boogey man who imposed his belief system onto the Church, exalting Jesus as God and getting rid of the Sabbath, defining an inadequate canon, etcetera. This is a common theme amongst Judaizer and Arian nuts. They are constantly blaming either Constantine or the Roman Catholic church for squelching their aberrant doctrines. The reality is that the vast majority of bishops at Nicea were aghast at Arius' teachings, and some even attacked him physically when he presented them.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

never heard of it, i would love to see some examples of these churches giving orders for everyone to go out and kill trins. when exactly did this start? the very idea contradicts the facts which show a very, very, very long history in Alexandria of freedom of worship. Jews wrote the LXX there, wrote it in the middle of a very non Jewish community with no fear of persicution. hindus, Celts, Buddhist, etc all came there to discuss ideas and learn from one another. that was the philosophy of Alexandria.

I quoted Foxes Book of Martyrs.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

For those that know what they are talking about, continue reading the bible.

Correct, and pay careful attention to John 1-3, Matt 28:18-20, John 14-17, and 2 Cor 13:14.

Ask yourself which point you think is in error:

1. God is one.
2. The Father is God.
3. The Son is God.
4. The Holy Spirit is God.
5. These three are distinct, co-eternal, co-essential Persons.

This is the Trinity doctrine. Simple, simple, simple.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

Constantine II was an arian but its not likely he had much involvement in religious persicutions. he was only emperor three years and for those three years he was occupied with his invasion of Italy, which he lost.


George would be the last person i would use for an example, he may have been an arian Christian but he was not supported by them, he was hated by most all his subjects, including arians.
most of this fighting had nothing to do with the trinity, it was mostly about the nature of Jesus so its pretty much irreverent.

Actually the Trinitarians were rather lenient with Arius. They would have saved themselves a lot of trouble if he had been executed. I think they learned their lesson.

In the end, though, it is God who will take care of those who teach lies that dishonor His Son. In fact, that's one of the primary things that he hates, and will be a reason for punishment when he returns..a failure to properly honor His Son.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

The Hebrew tells us in Genesis that God is three in one based upon the word used that is translated life.......When God breathes into Adam the breath of life<---this word is actually plural in Hebrew and should be translated LIVES.......Now Hebrew has the following...

a. Singular = one
b. Dual = pair or two
c. Plural = three or more

The word LIVES is plural = three

Spiritual LIFE <-----Holy Spirit
Intellectual LIFE <----Heavenly Father
Physical LIFE<-----Jesus as the SON

MADE in GOD'S image..............

Not to mention all of the other examples in the bible and creation!!

This sounds modalistic.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

There is an indication within the word "Elohim" that God is more than one in a sense, though..the ending "im" in Hebrew indicates more than two.

There is a separate word ending that indicates only two. Elohim, by nature of the word ending, indicates three or more.

However, this clue is not necessary for the Trinity to be true...it is merely a clue.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

obviously biblical yet some of these statements are very contradicting to the bible.

the Most High is three yet the bible says He is one.

Jesus is the Most High and man. this would mean the Most High is a man, which He says He is not (two or three times) and it would also mean every man is the Most High, i dont think i am the creator of the heavens and the earth.

non trins are cultust if they do not bow down and acknowledge these three persons, just curious where this command is in scripture?



this is an odd one, brought into union with Jesus yet the trinity family says the Father, Son and Spirit make up that family so unless you feel you are one more person in the trinity you are left on the outside looking in.

I would invite anyone concerned to read Rom 6:1-14, Gal 2:20, John 14-17 (particularly John 15), I Cor 6 to see that believers are joined with Jesus in a spiritual sense and united with him. This is actually what salvation is. We are united with him both in a legal sense and a spiritual sense, and that is how we share in his justification, sonship, life and inheritance.

As I have said, all these doctrines are intertwined and that is why someone who denies the deity of Jesus and the Trinity cannot understand Christianity correctly.

Regarding the "Most High" remark, YHVH is Most High, and God the Father and Jesus are both YHVH. It is easy to prove this, because many statements about the LORD are actually referring to Jesus. And, Is 53 identifies the Father as YHVH, because it is the Father who lays the sin burden on the Son.

I would ask jaybird88....is the Most High YHVH? Or, are YHVH and the Most High two separate beings? Who is Elohim?

Therefore, define the following, if you dare:

YHVH
Most High
Elohim

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

Personally, I think anti-Trinitarians and Arians just want to wear Christians out by making their false claims...a person could spend hours answering their questions thoroughly and they would still believe the same thing. It isn't a knowledge problem; it's a heart problem.

I know jaybird88 has been here many years and has expressed the same beliefs. No change.

I also find it hard to take someone serious if they are continually misspelling words.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

Here's some more historical info on Arian persecution after the death of Constantine:

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/2815.htm

Constantine himself wasn't super friendly to Trinitarians. He allowed Arians to come back from exile before his death.