Luke 17 - Where are they taken?
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Interesting, I've always took Ezekiel 18:20 to mean the person that sins will die not the actual soul. I would like to see other's thoughts on this now, though.
There is such a thing as being spiritually dead, but still alive. So I think it means, dead to Christ and his promises not actually dead and annihilated .
I think the soul will live forever in one of two places.... Heaven or Hell.
Luke 22:19
And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.
19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
21 But he spake of the temple of his body.
Since we know his body died, what do you think went on to hell ,be with the thief,and then raise his own body from the dead?
Paul said to be absent from the body is to be present with the lord
the rich man and lazareth were dead but had form,minds and were obviously spirits. Alive spirits.
When God breathed His spirit into Adam, Adam became a "living soul".
Soul is the result of God sustaining the body with His breath (spirit).
Soul gives you the ability to feel, have wants and so on. Soul is what sins, driven by the flesh.
Notice in the Scriptures only souls are being redeemed and never spirits (I pulled all occurrences in the whole Bible and encourage you to do the same if you wish). Spirit is never being redeemed. Because the spirit is God's breath that belongs to God, and as per what the Bible says, upon death "dust goes back into dust (the body) and the spirit returns to the God that gave it".
But the living soul, you and your personality, is gone, as these verses say:
Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. 6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.
This is why Jesus says:
Matthew 16:25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: (living soul, which will be gone upon death) and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. (you deny yourself and live for Christ - deny the desires of your flesh-driven soul, getting born of the Spirit, and your spirit goes back to God, and is one with God. You received eternal life)
People do not read carefully and assume soul is some third element thrown in, but soul is Biblically only the combination of the body and God's breath (spirit). So it is easy to understand that when Jesus "gave up the ghost", He really did die. The living soul was no more, because the spirit separated from the body.
(I am not getting into the hell topic now, I am just trying to stay on point.)
The point being, that if Jesus was in this state, and the Scriptures does state so, that it was impossible for Him to "preach in Hades" for 3 days, supposedly to the saints of pre-Crucifixion times, who were also in this dead state of NOT KNOWING ANYTHING aka being completely dead and without any conscience.
In other words, I claim that this literal imagination of Hades/sheol as some mythological place is just a tradition of men which is not backed up with the Scriptures as just demonstrated. The "prison" that Jesus is talking about, imo, is about how Jesus, who being Resurrected/quickened, by this same Spirit which raised Him, preaching to the spiritually dead people to save them from the bondage/prison of sin (this may refer to the time of Jesus ministry before or after Resurrection, or both, including the ministry of His followers). This ties in with "I was in prison, and you visited me" in the Gospels, and "the Lord looseth His prisoners" in the Psalms. The prison is being mentioned after the verse about Jesus being dead and raised, implying that these "prisoners" were also dead and raised (born again).
Thanks, your points are very interesting and thought provoking, especially about the soul being a combination of the body and spirit.
I've also never really completely settled to a conclusion on the Hades/Sheol thing, either. So it is very interesting to me.
Anyhow, Sorry if I'm getting this off topic. I guess, I need to try to find a thread about those topics...lol
You just applied a post judgement dynamic where a prejudgement dynamic is VIVIDLY depicted
Good day Absolutely,
Those who are left, are those who will have kept the testimony of Jesus and the word of God, who will have not worshiped the beast, his image, nor received his mark. These are the great tribulation saints who will have made it alive through the entire tribulation until Jesus returns to end the age, also referred to as the wheat.
The weeds will be those who will have rejected Christ and who will have worshiped the beast, his image and received his mark.
One Taken = The weeds (taken to be killed by the double-edged sword)
One Left = The wheat (Left to enter into the millennial kingdom)
With all due respect, your post number 116 is a jumble of confused ideas. You have also misunderstood the meaning of "preached unto the spirits in prison". When Christ went "by the Spirit" to preach unto the spirits in Sheol/Hades He was not preaching the forgiveness of sins, since there is only judgment after death. What He was proclaiming was His victory at the cross. The Greek word kerux can be translated as either preached or proclaimed, and the latter is applicable here.
Sins were indeed forgiven in the OT on the basis of two things (1) the shed blood of animals and (2) the anticipated shed blood of Christ. Without the shedding of blood there is no remission (forgiveness) of sins. And the resurrection of believers occurs on just one day, not over millennia.
That phrase "gave up the ghost" simply means "died" and "gathered to his people" means joined the OT saints who were already in Sheol/Hades.
The Hebrew and Greek words for "spirit" can also be translated as "breath" (depending on the context). So what this simply means is that life (which is synonymous with breath), is taken by God when man dies and is placed in the grave. However all the actual spirits and soul of the dead do not go to God. Only the ones who are saved go to Christ. The others go to Hades.
I am actually in full agreement with everything you said here; we agree on everything, except I am just making a case that Hades is not some mythological place, but a state or condition.
I made some steadier arguments in latter posts, if you feel like reading them. (and thanks for responding)
I do admit that it's a bit jumbled, it took me a while to explain well what I want to say.
I thought the context was those who were judged by the flood?
1 Peter 3:19-20
19 in which also having gone, He preached to the spirits in prison 20 at one time having disobeyed, when the longsuffering of God was waiting in the days of Noah, of the ark being prepared, in which a few—that is, eight souls—were saved through water,
I believe the prison in this context isn't Hades but is the Bottomless Pit of Revelation 9. I believe these spirits being preached to are either the violent abominable giants spoken of in Genesis 6 (who were created by the sons of God taking wives of the daughters of men)...or they are the "sons of God" themselves; those spirits who disobeyed by leaving their first estate and taking wives.
Thank you for introducing this.
The dead Jesus could not "preach" in Hades to the dead saints as the dead "know nothing", so I believe we can safely eliminate the notion that hades is this prison (as a literal mythological place).
I don't feel like my interpretation of prison is adequate, either. Only partially, in spiritual sense, but does not "nail it". Just like you say, there's more here.
Back to study.
Again, the one taken is vividly prejudgement.
You actually have people on a housetop and in a field ,and in a bed together In the following enviroment:
rev 16
8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.
9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.
10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.
12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.
19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.
21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.
But even more bizzare you have not only the righteous going through the wrath of God, but a righteous man in a bed with a devil that has the mark of the beast.
Your model has no basis scripturally.
When it is testfitted it will not fly.
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
What is it about that that you seem to be blinded about????
Impossible for that to be more clear.
"so shall also the coming of the Son of man be"
So, if you do not believe what I have been saying, what are you believing?
1. Hades is NOT mythological since it is clearly in the Bible as Sheol/Hades.
2. It is a place -- a region near the core of the earth (the heart of the earth).
3. It is also a state -- a state of hopelessness and torment.
"...the spirit and the bride say come"
The rapture is the coming of Jesus
He COMES for his church/bride
The second coming is the coming also.
The one on a cloud in rev 14 is Jesus coming for and harvesting main body of jews
"Coming" is not one dimensional
"You're taking the men in the field and the women grinding too literally. It's just a parabolic picture."
In the rapture,that is EXACTLY what happens.
The one taken in no way fits wheat/tares/or wicked removed.
The entire context is prejudgement peacetime
"...in the days of noah..buying selling and marrying..."
Noah=before the flood
Before the flood= before judgement/pretrib)
The flood came and carried them away= even that is not post flood
You actually have the wicked taken after the flood