Can anti-Trinitarians properly understand Christianity?

[UnitedWithChrist]

Can anti-Trinitarians properly understand Christianity?

No, they cannot.

God (YHVH) is the true God. YHVH is one in terms of essence, and three in terms of Persons, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

The Father is YHVH. The Son is YHVH. The Holy Spirit is YHVH.

Each have co-existed since eternity. The Father eternally begat the Son. The Son has always been the Son, and the Father has always been the Father. In other words, incarnational sonship, taught by some, is bogus. Eternal sonship is the correct teaching.

Why do I say that an anti-Trinitarian cannot properly understand Christianity? Christianity involves mirroring God. Man was created in the image of God, to reflect the nature of God. Man can reflect God's image in one sense alone, but he cannot reflect God's image in the fullest sense alone. He needs to be in relationship, because God himself is relational by NATURE.

Salvation is largely about a reversal of the damage that has been done in the Fall, and being transformed into the image of God, which was perfectly reflected by Jesus, through being united with Him spiritually and being transformed through this union. Therefore, it is essential to understand these important doctrines in order to have a reasonable basis for faith. Anyone who denies the Trinity doesn't have one of the core building blocks of a proper understanding of Scripture.

Mankind reflects God's nature in community, not individually. When he is isolated, he does not reflect God's nature. There is a reason why most serial killers were solitary individuals.

And, this is why the church is important. Christians cannot reflect God's image if they are lone-ranger Christians. Community is essential to real Christian faith.

I would recommend the books Delighting in the Trinity by Tim Chester for basic Scriptures on the Trinity, and Delighting in the Trinity by Michael Reeves to understand the deeper mysteries of the Trinity. Both are fantastic books (I wish they had used different titles, though, due to the confusion between the two books).

Keep in mind that I come from a non-Trinitarian background. After realizing their false teachings, I have come to appreciate the Trinity. It is my second favorite doctrine of the Bible, besides union with Christ.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

One writer wrote something along the lines of: "[Dietrich] Bonhoeffer did not believe in the physical and bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ [...] and did not believe in the Trinity. He was a modalist."

I'm not sure why many Christians quote from him, or from his ideas, in a favorable way.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

One writer wrote something along the lines of: "[Dietrich] Bonhoeffer did not believe in the physical and bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ [...] and did not believe in the Trinity. He was a modalist."

I'm not sure why many Christians quote from him, or from his ideas, in a favorable way.

I am not sure if that is correct. I haven't studied Bonhoeffer much.

I would say this, though....I am more concerned about individuals who openly, defiantly reject the Trinity rather than some new believer or uninformed, ill-discipled Christian who doesn't understand it.

I was in the latter camp for many years, being an ill-discipled but born-again member of a cultic group. I guess i was in the slow-learner class

I think this makes us appreciate important doctrines more sometimes, such as the Trinity and union with Christ.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

Concerning the need to reflect God's image, lost in the Fall.....

In the Fall, four areas of man's relationships were compromised (and that is a light word for it..devastated might be more appropriate):

1) their relationship with God - they are spiritually dead, and separated from life, because they no longer live in God's presence, who
is the source of all life
2) their relationship with fellow man - Mankind, outside of God, is alienated from his fellow man, because he is not living a life
that revolves around his Creator, and is not mirroring his loving nature
3) their relationship with the physical creation - Mankind is not a proper steward of his environment. Additionally, God has cursed
the physical environment, subjecting it to futility, as part of the consequences of disobedience
4) their relationship with their body and their own mind - the physical body of mankind has been subjected to death, disease, and
decay, and the human mind is in chaos due to the futile state of mind caused by their failure to lead a God-centered life

How does this apply to my initial comments? Saved man begins to live a God-centered life, because he has been joined with Jesus, and his heart has been replaced with one that wants to live in obedience with his creator. He is freed to reflect the nature of his Creator, and he begins to live a God-centered existence.

One facet of the image of God involves the communal nature of the Trinity. The three Persons of the Triune God have reflected mutual love since eternity. Mankind is to model the Trinity in this manner, by reflecting love within the church community, in particular. This is part of why modalism or unitarian theology is deficient.

This reality is part of why I reject the idea of "lone ranger Christians" and "online churches". Whether it is easy or not, believers are to image their Creator, and the Creator lives in community.

Don't be fooled, folks. I belonged to an anti-Trinitarian cult as a young man. I strongly suggest that if you don't understand the Trinity, make it a goal. At the same time, I recommend understanding union with Christ, too.

Those who deny the Trinity are simply rejecting a core aspect of Christianity. They will try to convince you they are the "enlightened ones" and that you need to be educated about church history and how wicked men in the Church quenched the "true faith" which they represent. This is a constant spiel that cultists use to drag people off into their groups. It was true of the cult I belonged to, and it is true of other cults.

Once the Christian doctrines are understood, it is amazing how everything harmonizes. However, it takes some effort and selection of good resources. Obviously there are many incompetent teachers within the Church, and selecting the good ones can be a challenge.

 

[Dino246]

Your thread title is an argument looking for an opponent.

Calling someone "anti-" something, where the 'something' is positive, is pigeonholing them. It's the same tactic used by pro-abortion activists when they call pro-lifers, "anti-choice". It's dismissive and condescending.

If you just want to stir the pot and sling the contents around, you're doing the right thing. If you want an intelligent and respectful discussion, I suggest you try to avoid framing the discussion this way.

 

[Deade]

Can anti-Trinitarians properly understand Christianity?

No, they cannot.

God (YHVH) is the true God. YHVH is one in terms of essence, and three in terms of Persons, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

The Father is YHVH. The Son is YHVH. The Holy Spirit is YHVH.

Each have co-existed since eternity. The Father eternally begat the Son. The Son has always been the Son, and the Father has always been the Father. In other words, incarnational sonship, taught by some, is bogus. Eternal sonship is the correct teaching.

You have a lot of assumption going on here. First off, what does our understanding of the Godhead have to do with our salvation? Nothing, that I can see. You trinitarians keep telling us others, we deny Jesus's deity. Some might, but I do not.

I don't label God. That just produces questions. I do not believe we can say God is three persons, or a person at all. Oneness proponents try to tell us that the Father and Jesus are one entity. I don't believe that either. Although they are united by the Holy Spirit and that is what makes them God.

 

[Locoponydirtman]

You have a lot of assumption going on here. First off, what does our understanding of the Godhead have to do with our salvation? Nothing, that I can see. You trinitarians keep telling us others, we deny Jesus's deity. Some might, but I do not.

I don't label God. That just produces questions. I do not believe we can say God is three persons, or a person at all. Oneness proponents try to tell us that the Father and Jesus are one entity. I don't believe that either. Although they are united by the Holy Spirit and that is what makes them God. View attachment 203433

What does our understanding have to do with salvation? In some sense nothing at all, but in some sense everything. What do you believe if you don't know who it is that you believe in.
Could be like the followers of Santeria who have replaced the names of demons and demis with biblical names. Or like the Mormons or JWs who don't believe in the the same God as the rest of Christendom. Even though they use the same names and terms those terms and names are redefined. In this way our understanding has mortal consequences.
On the other hand it is Jesus that saves not our understanding. So even though we may not understand the all the details we are still saved, because it is Jesus not us or our understanding that saves us, but you might want to make sure you have the right Jesus, because a bunch of Hispanic folks name their children Jesus, and while he is a nice guy and knows how to make a good fajita stuffed chili on the grill, he isn't the; Jesus God manifest in the flesh, born of the Virgin, who gave his life as a sacrifice and being sinless over come the grave that in him we may be resurrected.
So while believing in one may get his wife to bring over a dozen tamales dolce at Christmas , believing in the other will get you rebirth and eternal life.

 

[Deade]

What does our understanding have to do with salvation? In some sense nothing at all, but in some sense everything. What do you believe if you don't know who it is that you believe in.
Could be like the followers of Santeria who have replaced the names of demons and demis with biblical names. Or like the Mormons or JWs who don't believe in the the same God as the rest of Christendom. Even though they use the same names and terms those terms and names are redefined. In this way our understanding has mortal consequences.
On the other hand it is Jesus that saves not our understanding. So even though we may not understand the all the details we are still saved, because it is Jesus not us or our understanding that saves us, but you might want to make sure you have the right Jesus, because a bunch of Hispanic folks name their children Jesus, and while he is a nice guy and knows how to make a good fajita stuffed chili on the grill, he isn't the; Jesus God manifest in the flesh, born of the Virgin, who gave his life as a sacrifice and being sinless over come the grave that in him we may be resurrected.
So while believing in one may get his wife to bring over a dozen tamales dolce at Christmas , believing in the other will get you rebirth and eternal life.

What are you going on about. I know Jesus, AKA Yeshua. He has sent me the Comforter (John 16:7). He and the Father are one (united). Let us leave it there.

 

[Noose]

God in the bible is revealed as the Father, He is also revealed as the Son and He is also revealed as the Holy spirit and there is no doubt that God is one according to the scripture. Trinity or oneness is an attempt to reconcile what the scriptures has revealed but i personally think that God is more than what Trinity or oneness describes.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

You have a lot of assumption going on here. First off, what does our understanding of the Godhead have to do with our salvation? Nothing, that I can see. You trinitarians keep telling us others, we deny Jesus's deity. Some might, but I do not.

I don't label God. That just produces questions. I do not believe we can say God is three persons, or a person at all. Oneness proponents try to tell us that the Father and Jesus are one entity. I don't believe that either. Although they are united by the Holy Spirit and that is what makes them God. View attachment 203433

I don't know if you read my OP carefully.

My position is, yes, your understanding of the Trinity does affect your ability to understand Christianity, because man is made in the image of God, and God is a Triune God.

God is community within one Being. Converted people image this community collectively. They are not lone, solitary individuals like the Unitarian God.

Perhaps I am engaging in a futile effort to explain complex concepts to theological rebels. For the rest, I hope they enjoy the thoughts.

Again, I recommend the books Delighting in the Trinity by Tim Chester, and Delighting in the Trinity by Michael Reeves.

Savor the richness of the knowledge of our Triune God

 

[kerrykiwi]

Just interested to know what is the other view apart from Trinitarianism and oneness?

 

[kerrykiwi]

The whole issue of the trinity comes down to this one question, "who is God?" Do we allow what the bible teaches about who God is to define that or do we elevate our own opinions to the level of being authoritative and throw out or simply ignore the passages of Scripture that attribute to the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit the attributes of God. Scripture does teach there is one God. It is in the incarnation and at Pentecost that we see that the one God reveals himself three persons.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

Just interested to know what is the other view apart from Trinitarianism and oneness?

Tri-theism would be another view, as well as "Binitarianism".

Tri-theism means that there are three separate god beings, Father Son and Holy Spirit.

I would like to say Mormonism is a Tri-theistic religion.

Binitarianism is really bi-theism, as most who call themselves binitarians are really claiming that there are two separate god beings, Father and Son, and the Holy Spirit is not personal but is a force.

 

[dcontroversal]

In my view, the OP has an issue with being correct.....the word of God is understood spiritually...we are told it is spiritually discerned and the natural man cannot grasp or KNOW the word of GOD....JESUS demonstrated with with parables this truth (it is NOT given unto them to know or discern the gospel of the Kingdom)

Salvation is the beginning point....one must be saved to grasp the deeper truths of the bible.....and the truth of God is understood in incremental successive levels based upon the proceeding brick of truth....It takes study and spiritual insight and the Holy Spirit of God opening the mind to deeper truth....I can tell all...a haphazard study will not lead to much...you may glean a nugget here and there but it will quickly end.

Having said the above....Christianity is a broad subject and even the basest of men can grasp many truths that lead them to being very Christian without actually grasping the deep truths of the trinity.

Regardless....does anyone really grasp the entirety of truth concerning the One GOD that is manifested three ways while being SPIRIT, LIGHT, LOVE and TRUTH personified.......

 

[Melach]

Just interested to know what is the other view apart from Trinitarianism and oneness?

one alternative not mentioned here is unitarianism. only Father is God and Jesus is His human son. Holy Spirit its God's operational power.

this is minority view and really whats the big differnce between that and islam not much.

its in error.

i believe in the trinity and i believe if someone denies Jesus is son of God and God in flesh they arent saved.

 

[bluto]

Can anti-Trinitarians properly understand Christianity?

No, they cannot.

God (YHVH) is the true God. YHVH is one in terms of essence, and three in terms of Persons, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

The Father is YHVH. The Son is YHVH. The Holy Spirit is YHVH.

Each have co-existed since eternity. The Father eternally begat the Son. The Son has always been the Son, and the Father has always been the Father. In other words, incarnational sonship, taught by some, is bogus. Eternal sonship is the correct teaching.

Why do I say that an anti-Trinitarian cannot properly understand Christianity? Christianity involves mirroring God. Man was created in the image of God, to reflect the nature of God. Man can reflect God's image in one sense alone, but he cannot reflect God's image in the fullest sense alone. He needs to be in relationship, because God himself is relational by NATURE.

Salvation is largely about a reversal of the damage that has been done in the Fall, and being transformed into the image of God, which was perfectly reflected by Jesus, through being united with Him spiritually and being transformed through this union. Therefore, it is essential to understand these important doctrines in order to have a reasonable basis for faith. Anyone who denies the Trinity doesn't have one of the core building blocks of a proper understanding of Scripture.

Mankind reflects God's nature in community, not individually. When he is isolated, he does not reflect God's nature. There is a reason why most serial killers were solitary individuals.

And, this is why the church is important. Christians cannot reflect God's image if they are lone-ranger Christians. Community is essential to real Christian faith.

I would recommend the books Delighting in the Trinity by Tim Chester for basic Scriptures on the Trinity, and Delighting in the Trinity by Michael Reeves to understand the deeper mysteries of the Trinity. Both are fantastic books (I wish they had used different titles, though, due to the confusion between the two books).

Keep in mind that I come from a non-Trinitarian background. After realizing their false teachings, I have come to appreciate the Trinity. It is my second favorite doctrine of the Bible, besides union with Christ.

It looks to me that your speaking in "generalities" or to put it another way your "venting." Your asking questions like, "Why can't the anti's understand Christianity?" Then you go on to explain what is salvation. People (especially the lost) deserve specific answers of what we believe and "WHY" we believe it. 1 Peter 3:15 comes to mind.

Now, as far as I'm concerned the focus should always be, "Who is Jesus Christ." Not about the Trinity, in fact I try and stay away from it. Jesus ask His disciples, "Who do people say that I am?" At Matthew 16:16, Peter answered and said, "Thou art the Christ/Messiah, the Son of the living God." Vs17, Jesus said, Blessed are you Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven."

Are job is to speak and explain, and given reasons for our faith. When the Jw's come to my door and we all know they deny the deity of Jesus Christ I try and keep the focus on Jesus Christ as to who He is. And of course I go to John 1:1-14 and they tell me Jesus is a god according to their NWT of John 1:1 and He is a created being I have a great question for them?

If as you say Jesus Christ is a created being then please tell me why is Jesus presented as the Agent of creation here at John 1:3, also at Colossians 1:16-17, and at Hebrews 1:10 Jesus' Father credits Jesus with creation as well as Revelation 3:14?

Even here a person said, "I do not belive we can say God is three persons, or a person at all." Really, how does he know that? For one thing we all know that God is love. It is also important to understand that the love of God is no simply an emotion. Rather divine love is the giving of one's self to another. How did God show is love for us? He gave His only begotten Son, (another person btw). Love demands a relationship between persons.

To be sure God is a person "as we are." And I believe His personhood is like ours for we are created in His image and after His likeness. But we are as far below Him as the earth is below the heavens, essentially infintely beneath Him in all respects. "Personhood" is one of those respects. God is only a person like we are to a certain extent, but I believe His ontological self, His whole being is also far beyone "personhooe" in the human sense.

On of the biggest problems that we humans have is we think God is person like us and He thinks like us, acts like us. Now, the Bible makes it clear that there are three and ONLY three persons in the Bible who are "IDENTIFIED" as God in all of the ways that the Bible identifies God: by His name, title, unique attributes (or nature), and His unique actions.

If you read the Bible it is not hard to come to this conclusion. For instance, let's take His names? God the Father is obviously CALLED God, Jesus Christ is called God, in fact Jesus Christ was crucified for claiming to be God. And the Holy Spirit is called God. One God, that have the same nature and three distinct persons. This is what we need to explain to people who are lost and have questions.

Remember I said I try and stay away from talking about the Trinity even though I am a Trinitarian. So, let me put it this way. "I do not believe trinitariansim is a REQUIREMENT for salvation. It is the RESULT of salvation, for (or because) you cannot know Jesus and somehow miss the fact that He is God. You cannot have experienced the presense of the Holy Spirit of God and somehow miss that He is God." Please read Romans 8:9-11. I could go on but I think this is enough for now.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

 

[Mem]

I haven't written in the forums for some time. I only thought to scan through them again just yesterday where the most most recent post was in "Trinity haters..." thread, which by now had too many pages to for my ocd to handle so I was glad to see this thread just started so that I could read every post Not that I'd intended to post anything but, in my research of the possibility of a notion I had that might've help to answer an other question, I happened to note a textual idiosyncrasy I encountered in Genesis 18 in context of the three visitors that brought me back to this topic... has anyone else noticed that these 'they' answer in first person singular form?

 

[Mem]

I wanted (needed) to add,... and also as well 'they' answering (in singular) as plural (we) form... sorry, just noticed this so, I've yet to fully examine the possible implication of this (that these three aren't merely the Lord and two angels but YHVH, the LORD)!
I definitely will be going to be sleeping on this idea as I ponder it further.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

It looks to me that your speaking in "generalities" or to put it another way your "venting." Your asking questions like, "Why can't the anti's understand Christianity?" Then you go on to explain what is salvation. People (especially the lost) deserve specific answers of what we believe and "WHY" we believe it. 1 Peter 3:15 comes to mind.

Now, as far as I'm concerned the focus should always be, "Who is Jesus Christ." Not about the Trinity, in fact I try and stay away from it. Jesus ask His disciples, "Who do people say that I am?" At Matthew 16:16, Peter answered and said, "Thou art the Christ/Messiah, the Son of the living God." Vs17, Jesus said, Blessed are you Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven."

Are job is to speak and explain, and given reasons for our faith. When the Jw's come to my door and we all know they deny the deity of Jesus Christ I try and keep the focus on Jesus Christ as to who He is. And of course I go to John 1:1-14 and they tell me Jesus is a god according to their NWT of John 1:1 and He is a created being I have a great question for them?

If as you say Jesus Christ is a created being then please tell me why is Jesus presented as the Agent of creation here at John 1:3, also at Colossians 1:16-17, and at Hebrews 1:10 Jesus' Father credits Jesus with creation as well as Revelation 3:14?

Even here a person said, "I do not belive we can say God is three persons, or a person at all." Really, how does he know that? For one thing we all know that God is love. It is also important to understand that the love of God is no simply an emotion. Rather divine love is the giving of one's self to another. How did God show is love for us? He gave His only begotten Son, (another person btw). Love demands a relationship between persons.

To be sure God is a person "as we are." And I believe His personhood is like ours for we are created in His image and after His likeness. But we are as far below Him as the earth is below the heavens, essentially infintely beneath Him in all respects. "Personhood" is one of those respects. God is only a person like we are to a certain extent, but I believe His ontological self, His whole being is also far beyone "personhooe" in the human sense.

On of the biggest problems that we humans have is we think God is person like us and He thinks like us, acts like us. Now, the Bible makes it clear that there are three and ONLY three persons in the Bible who are "IDENTIFIED" as God in all of the ways that the Bible identifies God: by His name, title, unique attributes (or nature), and His unique actions.

If you read the Bible it is not hard to come to this conclusion. For instance, let's take His names? God the Father is obviously CALLED God, Jesus Christ is called God, in fact Jesus Christ was crucified for claiming to be God. And the Holy Spirit is called God. One God, that have the same nature and three distinct persons. This is what we need to explain to people who are lost and have questions.

Remember I said I try and stay away from talking about the Trinity even though I am a Trinitarian. So, let me put it this way. "I do not believe trinitariansim is a REQUIREMENT for salvation. It is the RESULT of salvation, for (or because) you cannot know Jesus and somehow miss the fact that He is God. You cannot have experienced the presense of the Holy Spirit of God and somehow miss that He is God." Please read Romans 8:9-11. I could go on but I think this is enough for now.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

I would agree if I was talking to an uninformed cultist, but some (jaybird88 comes to mind) have been on this site for years, and have been exposed to all of the things you mentioned above. If you wanted to give me one point of teaching in regards to dealing with them, you might tell me not to cast pearls before swine.

Their issue is not one of a lack of education. I suspect it is one of a hard heart.

By the way, I already pointed out some of your points of reasoning in earlier posts, and another thread.