sabbath

TheLearner · Aug 27, 2019

I am sure I pointed out the fulfilled part was Jesus death and Resurrection.

Why keep using a proof text that has been put into context?

Romans 10:4 - For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

How can this be misinterpreted to be a contradiction, its redicilous? Matthew 5:18 is Jesus saying that nothing will pass from the law untill it be fulfilled, and it was fulfilled after his death and ressurection because he is the fulfillment of the law(Matthew 5:17). Romans 10:4 is a letter by Paul to the believers AFTER THE RESSURRECTION,when it was fulfilled. No Contradiction.
http://www.thywordistrue.com/contradictions/74-does-christ-fulfill-the-law-or-end-it

mailmandan · Aug 28, 2019

Wall said:

Yes, zero. There is no command under the new covenant for Christians to keep the Sabbath day holy. The sabbath rest that remains (sabbatismos - Hebrews 4:9) is the perpetual rest to be enjoyed uninterruptedly by believers in their fellowship with the Father and the Son, in contrast to the weekly sabbath under the law.

John 3:16 - For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. *What happened to keeping the commandments? John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Jesus showed the rich young ruler how short he falls of keeping even the first commandment (Exodus 20:3) which is the first of the two great commandments (Deuteronomy 6:5; Matthew 22:37). The rich young ruler confidently and (self righteously) declared that he has kept the commandments from his youth up and qualified for heaven under those terms. Yet Jesus knew the man's wealth had become his idolatrous god, which kept him from believing in Jesus unto salvation. (John 3:15,16,18; 6:40,47; 11:25,26) Jesus knew the Old Testament law where it states that the standard of keeping the Law is perfection (Deuteronomy 27:26). The apostle Paul quotes drives this point home in Galatians 3:10 when he says, “For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law to perform them." The only way to obtain salvation by keeping the commandments would be by perfectly obeying them (Deuteronomy 27:26; Galatians 3:10; James 2:10) Yet since no one has obeyed the law perfectly (Romans 3:23), no one can obtain salvation by keeping the commandments (Romans 3:28; 4:5; Galatians 2:16, 21; 3:10)

The rich young ruler missed the point that Jesus was making (just as did you) and failed to place his faith in Jesus for salvation, and continued instead to trust in his riches (vs. 21-23). His face fell and he went away sad because he could not part from his great wealth, not even in exchange for eternal life. If keeping the commandments is the basis by which we receive eternal life, then why isn't this remark the pattern for all discussions concerning eternal life? Paul would have said to the jailer who asked, "what must I do to be saved?" by replying in Acts 16:31, "keep the commandments and you will be saved," yet instead, Paul said - Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved.. Jesus knows the hearts of all men and responds to each individual a little differently because He knows where their need is. He didn't respond to the woman at the well, or to Nicodemus or to the rich young ruler the same way, yet the consistent pattern in scripture is salvation by grace through faith, not works (Romans 4:2-6; 4:13-16; 5:1; Ephesians 2:8,9; Philippians 3:9 etc..).

1 John 2:3 - By this we know that we have come to know Him, (already know Him, already saved, demonstrative evidence) if we keep His commandments. BTW the Greek word for "keep" is "tereo" (Strong's #5083) which means to guard, observe, watch over) His commandments. It does not mean sinless, perfect obedience 100% of the time to the 10 commandments under the law of Moses in the old testament.

It's obvious that you teach SALVATION BY WORKS. Did Jesus say BELIEVE AND YOU WILL BE SAVED in John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:40,47; 11:25,26 or BELIEVE plus something else? NO. *JUST BELIEVE.* What do we read in Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31; Romans 1:16; 3:22-28; 4:5-6; 1 Corinthians 1:21; 1 John 5:13? Believe + works? NO. *JUST BELIEVE.* It's obvious you DON'T TRULY BELIEVE.

In James 2:19, we see that the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God," but they do not believe/have faith in/trust in/reliance in Jesus Christ for salvation. In other words, they do not believe on the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31) and are not saved. Their trust and reliance is in Satan, as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works. *You cannot seem to grasp a deeper belief that trusts in Christ alone for salvation, which also explains why you have so much faith in works for salvation.

Keeping (guarding, observing, watching over) His commandments is the demonstrative evidence that we love God, but is not the means by which we obtain salvation. (Romans 3:22-28; Galatians 2:16)

Keeping His commandments is not the means by which we receive the Holy Spirit. When Jesus spoke these words (prior to Him being glorified) the Holy Spirit had not yet been given. Those who BELIEVE IN HIM receive the Holy Spirit. John 7:38 - He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.” 39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

Acts 11:17 - If therefore God gave them the same gift (Holy Spirit) as He gave us when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could withstand God?”

Ephesians 1:13 - In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise.

mailmandan · Aug 28, 2019

Wall said:

Yikes! So according to your logic, you are still under the law and Jesus failed to fulfill the law. Jesus did not come as a destroyer, He came as a fulfiller. If the law is still binding on us today, then it has not yet accomplished its purpose and has not yet been fulfilled and if that’s the case, then Jesus was wrong in claiming to fulfill it and His sacrifice on the cross was insufficient to save. Thank God that Jesus fulfilled the law and grants us eternal life/salvation as a free gift. (Romans 6:23; Ephesians 2:8,9) Jesus came to "fulfill" all that had been written concerning himself. Luke 24:44 - All things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. John 1:17 - For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. We are not under the Mosaic law but under “the law of Christ” (Galatians 6:2).

You confuse descriptive passages of scripture with prescriptive passages of scripture. Keeping the commandments of God (not the 10 commandments under the law of Moses in the old covenant with all it's rules and regulations) and the faith of Jesus is descriptive of those who are His saints. The NASB reads - Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.

Nobody is saying we need not keep God's commandments, yet you have swung the pendulum in the opposite extreme direction of legalism and are mixing grace plus law, faith plus works. Faith in Christ is the proper response to the law, for what the law could not do, Christ alone can and did do. Salvation through faith in Christ alone does not make the law void (Romans 3:31) rather, it fulfills the law and other than Christ, no one ever perfectly obeyed the law.

Once again you are confusing descriptive passages of scripture prescriptive passages of scripture. It really blows my mind to see how you confidently and self righteously seem to believe that you have sufficiently obeyed all of His commandments and will receive eternal based on the merits of your performance. Apparently the multitude of verses in the Bible which base salvation on believing/placing faith in Jesus Christ for salvation mean nothing to you. "Do His commandments" does not earn us eternal life, but it is evidence that we have been born of God/know God. Some translations read, "Blessed are those who wash their robes," which symbolizes those who have been forgiven of their sins through the blood of the Lamb (Romans 3:24-26). *Also see Revelation 7:14. Those who by faith that have trusted in Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of their salvation have received imputed righteousness/the righteousness of God (Romans 4:4-6; Philippians 3:9).

The Jews regarded circumcision as everything, as opposed to nothing. It's not important if a man is circumcised or not. The important thing is obeying God's commands is the point that Paul is driving home. Not that we are saved based on the merit of keeping the commandments.

It does not apply to me. Colossians 2:16 - Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day— 17 things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ. I am not a Jew under the law. (Exodus 16:23, 29; 31:12-18; 35:1-3; Leviticus 19:30; 23:2-3, 32; Numbers 15:32-36; 28:1-10; 29:39-40; I Chronicles. 23:30-31; II Chronicles 31:2-4; Isaiah 1:13; Amos 8:5; Nehemiah 10:31)

Believers demonstrate their love for the children of God and for God when we keep (guard, observe, watch over) His commandments. His commandments are not grievous, unless you try to turn keeping them into a legalistic prescription for salvation.

These new covenant scriptures say "commandments" and not 10 commandments under the law of Moses. I've read the 4th commandment and sabbath keeping with all it's rules and regulations, was part of a covenant with Israel (Exodus 16:23, 29; 31:12-18; 35:1-3; Leviticus 19:30; 23:2-3, 32; Numbers 15:32-36; 28:1-10; 29:39-40; I Chronicles. 23:30-31; II Chronicles 31:2-4; Isaiah 1:13; Amos 8:5; Nehemiah 10:31) that is not binding on Christians under the new covenant. *Colossians 2:16 - Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day 17 things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ. *Also see posts #33 and #60 in this thread.*

The Christian life under the new covenant flows out of the new command, to love one another as He loved us (John 13:34), which Paul refers to as the "law of Christ" (Galatians 6:2). Love fulfills the law (Romans 13:8-10). Out of this single command comes other commands, including references for the moral aspect of 9 of the 10 commandments from the Old Testament which are reiterated in the New Testament, yet Sabbath keeping with all it's rules and regulations, which was part of a covenant with Israel and a sign between God and Israel (Exodus 16:23, 29; 31:12-18; 35:1-3; Leviticus 19:30; 23:2-3, 32; Deuteronomy 5:12-15; Numbers 15:32-36; 28:1-10; 29:39-40; I Chronicles. 23:30-31; II Chronicles 31:2-4; Isaiah 1:13; Amos 8:5; Nehemiah 10:31) that is not binding on the Church under the new covenant. (Colossians 2:16-17)

Lightskin · Aug 28, 2019

Good morning, beloved. I pray everyone has a wonderful day, blessed with traveling mercies and peace, all the while embracing God’s grace for what it is, a free and irrevocable gift. To God be the glory.

RevelationsMc · Aug 28, 2019

Galatians 5:16 KJV
[16] This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

oyster67 · Aug 28, 2019

freedomquamie said:

The early Church seems to have began meeting on the first day of the week. The day of rest seems to have moved to Sunday along with it. We still rest every seventh day. Are you saying that some Christian do not keep any day as a day of rest, or do you just mean that they don't do it on Saturday?

Acts 20:7 And upon the first [day] of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.

oldethennew · Aug 28, 2019

if one is truly curious and seeking Truth, concerning Sabbath and Sunday,
then all they have to do is (Google) Constantine and The Sabbath History...

TheLearner · Aug 28, 2019

Luke 2:40 And the Child grew and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom, and the grace of God was upon Him.

how does this relate?

Grandpa · Aug 28, 2019

oldethennew said:

I think maybe opening the bible to Matthew 11:28 would be a better idea.

Yahshua · Aug 29, 2019

There is no precedent or commandment to change the day of worship from Sabbath to Sunday found in the scriptures. No elder of the church commanded it or authorized it be changed. Paul honored the Sabbath wherever he traveled and preached, as well as the High Sabbath feasts. And gentile converts went to synagogue every Sabbath day to learn the Law of Moses.

The day of worship didn't changed to Sunday until after the original elders and leaders of the early Church were martyred.

Grandpa · Aug 29, 2019

1 Corinthians 16:1-2
1 Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye.
2 Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.

Acts 20:7 And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.

It would make sense, since Christians are not under the law but walk in the Spirit, that they would Worship on the Lords Day, the Day the Lord Resurrected, instead of the day that the Jews go to synagogue.

It would be a little contradictory to argue in Acts 15 that gentiles aren't under the law of Moses and then come back and say but we have to go to church on Saturdays...

This didn't happen as you can see clearly in Acts 20.

It also makes very little sense for Christians to go to Jewish synagogue to worship Jesus. Who would do that? Paul went to Jewish synagogues to teach them about Jesus. Not to worship the Lord there.

Real Christians were already going to church on sundays starting in Acts 20. The significance of this is that it is when the Lord Jesus Resurrected, which is one of the most important Days for Christianity.

Wall · Aug 29, 2019

oyster67 said:

ACTS 20 [7] And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.[8] And there were many lights in the upper chamber, where they were gathered together.

Hello oyster67. The above scripture is used by the many to convince people that sunday was being kept as a day of rest instead of the sabbath during the time of Paul. They will point out that on the first day of the week they came together to “break bread” and thus the believers of Pauls time were following sunday as the “new testament” day of rest.

ACTS 2 [42] And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.[43] And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles.[44] And all that believed were together, and had all things common;[45] And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.[46] And they, CONTINUING DAILY with one accord in the temple, AND BREAKING BREAD from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,

But as you can see they “broke bread” daily. Not just on the first day of the week. They were simply eating. The fact is, you will find no where in the new testament anyone keeping sunday as a day of rest.

LUKE 4 [14] And JESUS returned in the power of the Spirit into Galilee: and there went out a fame of him through all the region round about.[15] And he taught in their synagogues, being glorified of all.[16] And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, AS HIS CUSTOM WAS, he WENT INTO THE SYNAGOGUE ON THE SABBATH DAY, and stood up for to read.

JESUS kept the sabbath

ACTS 17 [2] AND PAUL, AS HIS MANNER WAS, went in unto them, and three SABBATH DAYS reasoned with them out of the scriptures,[3] Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ.

PAUL kept the sabbath {after the risen Christ}

ACTS 13 [42] And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, THE GENTILES BESOUGHT THAT THESE WORDS MIGHT BE PREACHED TO THEM THE NEXT SABBATH.[43] Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God.[44] And THE NEXT SABBATH DAY CAME ALMOST THE WHOLE CITY TOGETHER TO HEAR THE WORD OF GOD.

GENTILES come together on the sabbath to hear the WORD.

Can anyone show me in scripture where the Word of God actually changes or does away with the sabbath day of rest? Anywhere in the new testament? How about in the old testament? Anywhere?

ACTS 25 [7] And when he was come, the Jews which came down from Jerusalem stood round about, and laid many and grievous complaints against Paul, which they could not prove. [8] While he answered for himself, NEITHER AGAINST THE LAW OF THE JEWS, neither against the temple, nor yet against Caesar, HAVE I OFFENDED ANY THING AT ALL.

During the time of Paul there were also many who accused Paul, saying he was not keeping Gods law (which includes the sabbath). Just as it is today, nobody seems to be able to prove that.

Wall · Aug 29, 2019

Grandpa said:

ACTS 15 [17] That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things. [18] Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world. [19] Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among THE GENTILES are turned to God: [20] But that we write unto them, that THEY ABSTAIN FROM POLLUTIONS OF IDOLS, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood. [21] For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

ACTS 15 as a whole was speaking as to whether gentiles needed to be circumcized or not.

ACTS 15 [4] And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the church, and of the apostles and elders, and they declared all things that God had done with them. [5] But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That IT WAS NEEDFUL TO CIRCUMCISE THEM, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.

ACTS 15 [24] Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, YE MUST BE CIRCUMCISED, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:

Nothing to do with the 10 commandments. So lets look into what pollution of idols {V 20} is all about. Its there we find that we are to be keeping Gods sabbath day.

LEVITICUS 19 [3] Ye shall fear every man his mother, and his father, and KEEP MY SABBATHS: I am the Lord your God. [4] TURN YE NOT UNTO IDOLS, NOR MAKE TO YOURSELVES MOLTEN GODS: I am the Lord your God.

LEVITICUS 26 [1]Ye shall MAKE YOU NO IDOLS NOR GRAVEN IMAGE, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the Lord your God. [2] YE SHALL KEEP MY SABBATHS, and reverence my sanctuary: I am the Lord.

EZEKIEL 20 [16]Because they despised my judgments, and walked not in my statutes, BUT POLLUTED MY SABBATHS: FOR THEIR HEART WENT AFTER THEIR IDOLS.

I don’t know what the connection might be as to why graven images and idols are a sign that you don’t keep Gods sabbath but if the WORD says so I believe it. We could have a debate on what an idol is but that would go nowhere but in circles. Does your church have any standing images? I know the churches that do keep the sabbath don’t have any standing images or crosses.

Grandpa · Aug 29, 2019

Wall said:

ACTS 15 [17] That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things. [18] Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world. [19] Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among THE GENTILES are turned to God: [20] But that we write unto them, that THEY ABSTAIN FROM POLLUTIONS OF IDOLS, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood. [21] For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

ACTS 15 as a whole was speaking as to whether gentiles needed to be circumcized or not.

ACTS 15 [4] And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the church, and of the apostles and elders, and they declared all things that God had done with them. [5] But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That IT WAS NEEDFUL TO CIRCUMCISE THEM, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.

ACTS 15 [24] Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, YE MUST BE CIRCUMCISED, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:

Nothing to do with the 10 commandments. So lets look into what pollution of idols {V 20} is all about. Its there we find that we are to be keeping Gods sabbath day.

LEVITICUS 19 [3] Ye shall fear every man his mother, and his father, and KEEP MY SABBATHS: I am the Lord your God. [4] TURN YE NOT UNTO IDOLS, NOR MAKE TO YOURSELVES MOLTEN GODS: I am the Lord your God.

LEVITICUS 26 [1]Ye shall MAKE YOU NO IDOLS NOR GRAVEN IMAGE, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the Lord your God. [2] YE SHALL KEEP MY SABBATHS, and reverence my sanctuary: I am the Lord.

EZEKIEL 20 [16]Because they despised my judgments, and walked not in my statutes, BUT POLLUTED MY SABBATHS: FOR THEIR HEART WENT AFTER THEIR IDOLS.

I don’t know what the connection might be as to why graven images and idols are a sign that you don’t keep Gods sabbath but if the WORD says so I believe it. We could have a debate on what an idol is but that would go nowhere but in circles. Does your church have any standing images? I know the churches that do keep the sabbath don’t have any standing images or crosses.

I think it would do better to debate over what rest is than what an idol is.

And what it means to walk in Gods Statutes and what it is to pollute Gods Rest.

Wall · Aug 30, 2019

Grandpa said:

Sure it is. The sabbath is part of Gods law.

ROMANS 7 [14] For we know that THE LAW IS SPIRITUAL: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

Wall · Aug 30, 2019

Grandpa said:

Thats another thing. I cant imagine standing before the Lord and saying "save me Lord" im an illegalist i did nothing you commanded me to do.

Blik · Aug 30, 2019

Nehemiah6 said:

Exodus 19: 5 And now, if you will diligently listen to me and keep my covenant, then you will be my special possession out of all the nations, for all the earth is mine, 6 and you will be to me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.

This is God telling Moses He is giving the ten commandments to Israel. If God is saying that all the earth is His and that it is given to the Israelites because they are supposed to act as priests, then the order to honor the seventh day is for the gentiles as well as the Jews.

We are told that all scripture is truth, and that no scripture disagrees with another for they are from the same God. We know that some things changed because we are not to sacrifice animals and scripture told us to and that the old covenant became obsolete. But when the new covenant took away the need to use physical rituals to guide us in obedience, the spiritual obedience was not changed.

The nature of a covenant is that it is an eternal agreement God tells us of that He has with us. Scripture does not tell us that God took back a covenant, but that some became obsolete. Animal sacrifice, circumcision, diet restrictions became obsolete as guides to obedience. The Holy Spirit is our guide. But the Sabbath did not become obsolete.

Nehemiah6 · Aug 30, 2019

Blik said:

Well since it is God Himself who brought the Old Covenant to a close, you should complain to Him (and to Christ) that they brought in a New Covenant unnecessarily.

By the same token you can join the unbelieving Jews, who reject the New Covenant altogether, and are presently awaiting the appearance of their *true Messiah* to Jerusalem and Israel. All Orthodox Jews hold to the belief that Messiah is yet to come.

Blik · Aug 30, 2019

Nehemiah6 said:

Scripture tells us the old covenant is obsolete, there is no scripture I have found stating that God brought it to a close. I have found no scripture, either, that tells us that God's covenants can be cancelled.

If you decide to cancel a covenant that God made, you will have to change the meaning of the word covenant.

lightbearer · Aug 31, 2019

mailmandan said:

No future fruition mention in the text. All past tense. And once again two things mention in verse ten. The Rest which is the Gospel and the Sabbath keeping which God participated in. Also the ceasing of work is in addition to the Rest before mention. Something else that needs attention is the fact that the ceasing from work is "as God did". Only one mention of God ceasing from work in the Bible and that is at the completion of Creation. It was a Physical ceasing from physical work.

There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. For he that is entered (past tense) into his rest, he also (in addition) hath ceased (past tense) from his own works, as (just like) God did from his.
(Heb 4:9-10 KJV)

mailmandan said:

Context says the rest is the Gospel.

But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we (By a new and living way (which is the rest, the Gospel), which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; And having an high priest over the house of God. Heb 10:20,21) if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.
(Heb 3:6 KJV)
For we are made partakers of Christ ( through the veil, that is to say, his flesh (which is the rest, the Gospel); And having an high priest over the house of God) if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
(Heb 3:14 KJV)
Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest (partakers of Christ through the veil, that is to say, his flesh (which is the rest, the Gospel; And having an high priest over the house of God), any of you should seem to come short of it. For unto us was the GOSPEL preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
(Heb 4:1- KJV)

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