If Perchance Catholicism Is Mistaken

[Dan_473]

Hello again Dan, that's not true, for this Protestant anyway, or for any others I know (well, except for a few of the "solo" Christians out here in online Christendom, I guess). This super-minority opinion has nothing to do with the historic Protestant faith, which certainly includes the Reformed (and most often highly misunderstood) doctrine known as Sola Scriptura.


That sounds about right. Of course, this approach becomes problematic since we know that Popes and Councils have disagreed with each other (the Filioque comes quickly to mind, as does the extent of Adam's fall as described and anathematized by Orange and Trent), and they (Popes/Councils) have both disagreed with some of the clear, didactic teaching of the Bible, wherever certain presuppositions or traditions required them to so.


Actually, I believe it's St. John (not Jesus) who mentions that if everything that Jesus did had been written down, the world itself would not be big enough to contain all the books that would need to be written.*

*(all that in just three short years of Jesus' ministry .. WOW, what an AMAZING thing it must have been to witness it all .. AND to walk with Him, of course .. personally ).

That said, I believe that the Bible contains every jot and tittle that God intended it to have, no more and no less. Most importantly, everything that we need to know about ourselves and about God to be saved, and to live Christian life adequately before Him, is in there .. 2 Timothy 3:16-17.

Finally, I have no problem with RCC "Traditions", unless those traditional teachings contradict what the Bible teaches us, of course, just like Jesus pointed out for us that the Jewish oral traditions often did.


You might ask someone from the EOC that very same question, since they use a different Bible than RC's do! That said, we use the same tests today that those in the late 4th (RCC) and then the late 7th (EOC) centuries used. Of course, it's always important to remember that the Apostles told us which books were Scripture as they were being written, which is why the vast majority of the NT Canon was already known by the early to mid-2nd century.

I've only touched on some of this, but I think I'll stop anyway because this is already becoming too long for a single post, IMHO. So I'll wait for your reply before I continue (and then hopefully get back to you a little more quickly than I did last time )

God bless you!

~Deut

Of course one can say that the 66 books commonly used today is exactly the scriptures God intended us to have. That's basically making a statement of faith, a Creed. Sometimes people who want to support the idea of King James only will make a similar statement. "I believe the King James Bible is inspired by God" or something like that.

If one is willing to look at the history of the Canon of the New testament, it's not nearly as clean as many people think, IMO.

You probably already know this, but Martin Luther said in so many words that the theology in the book of James was flat-out wrong.

 

[Jackson123]

Lots of great points there! I'm going to use several posts to respond to different parts, because I'm on a cell phone, and the screen is pretty small, so hard to keep track of everything.

Jesus said
John 16: 12. "I have yet many things to tell you, but you can't bear them now.

When were his disciples able to Bear them, the other things he wanted to tell them? Was it in maybe 90 ad when maybe the book we call Revelation was written? Or if we give a later date to 2nd and 3rd John, later than that? Or some later date even than that?

When were the time his disciple able to bear them?

When the Holy Spirit come and dwell in.

I remember talk to catholic friend about this.

He tend to say that pray to Mary is one of the teaching Jesus not tell them because they not able to bear it.

I do not believe it.

Pray to Mary is not so complicated to understand, it is no need high logical thinking level to understand the teaching of pray to Mary.

And after Holy Spirit come, the tradition of the apostles was documented in the book of act, on that book I never read the apostle pray to mary

 

[Dan_473]

Hello again Dan, that's not true, for this Protestant anyway, or for any others I know (well, except for a few of the "solo" Christians out here in online Christendom, I guess). This super-minority opinion has nothing to do with the historic Protestant faith, which certainly includes the Reformed (and most often highly misunderstood) doctrine known as Sola Scriptura.


That sounds about right. Of course, this approach becomes problematic since we know that Popes and Councils have disagreed with each other (the Filioque comes quickly to mind, as does the extent of Adam's fall as described and anathematized by Orange and Trent), and they (Popes/Councils) have both disagreed with some of the clear, didactic teaching of the Bible, wherever certain presuppositions or traditions required them to so.


Actually, I believe it's St. John (not Jesus) who mentions that if everything that Jesus did had been written down, the world itself would not be big enough to contain all the books that would need to be written.*

*(all that in just three short years of Jesus' ministry .. WOW, what an AMAZING thing it must have been to witness it all .. AND to walk with Him, of course .. personally ).

That said, I believe that the Bible contains every jot and tittle that God intended it to have, no more and no less. Most importantly, everything that we need to know about ourselves and about God to be saved, and to live Christian life adequately before Him, is in there .. 2 Timothy 3:16-17.

Finally, I have no problem with RCC "Traditions", unless those traditional teachings contradict what the Bible teaches us, of course, just like Jesus pointed out for us that the Jewish oral traditions often did.


You might ask someone from the EOC that very same question, since they use a different Bible than RC's do! That said, we use the same tests today that those in the late 4th (RCC) and then the late 7th (EOC) centuries used. Of course, it's always important to remember that the Apostles told us which books were Scripture as they were being written, which is why the vast majority of the NT Canon was already known by the early to mid-2nd century.

I've only touched on some of this, but I think I'll stop anyway because this is already becoming too long for a single post, IMHO. So I'll wait for your reply before I continue (and then hopefully get back to you a little more quickly than I did last time )

God bless you!

~Deut

Yes, the Eastern Orthodox have a different Canon than he Roman Catholic. But in both cases, I think they would say that God's truth comes to individuals through the church, so the actual list of books is not critical.

"...the Apostles told us which books were Scripture as they were being written..."
Does every book in the New testament say this? Were there not also forgeries in the early centuries?

 

[Dan_473]

Yes it is a must to believe even if a thing is proven false (like limbo one of the many) or their foundation drops out .

Sola scriptura, all things written in the law and the prophets makes the law of the fathers Catholic fathers as oral traditions of the fathers without effect . No man can serve two masters in that way.

In that portion of scripture (John 21) Jesus is teaching the opposite as to what Catholicism puts their hope in, that God is still bringing new revelation that they call private revelations .He was rebuking Peter for trying to add by promoting a lie as a oral tradition of the fathers. Jesus said if every time he had to work to expose the lies of the oral traditions of men . . . . then the world would not be able to contains the books.

It was not a blank check. . fill in with mystics false prophets as it goes along

Mark 7:13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

Their hope of violating the warning not to add to the perfect which is sealed with 7 seals is seen as defined by Pope Urban



The call of Catholicism. Just believe Queen Mary she will be happy you have violated the warning not to add or subtract from the perfect. . . keep those air ways open .



In other words. . . we will make it up as time goes forward. We will not serve a outdated book. Ancient history

Do you mean that Jesus stop speaking to his disciples at the end of the law and the prophets, meaning the last book of the New testament, The book of Revelation?

Why would a person think Revelation is the last book in the Bible? Why would a person think it is to be in the Bible?

I've read that a lot of early Christians did not regard The book of Revelation as scripture, oddly enough many of them in Asia Minor, the people to whom the author John was writing to.

 

[JamOn]

I remember a catholic friend talk about oral tradition, they believe Jesus never ask or instruct to write His teaching.

What a wrong to write His teaching. ?

With Oral tradition is easier to lie, that is what they intend to do.

They going to say let pray to Mary, that is oral tradition, no document to backup

They first Pope, Peter also write his teaching. She also write her catechism.

Proof catholic is liar.

if I’m not mistaken, I think Jesus wrote a teaching in the sand

 

[Dan_473]

Honestly, at this point appearances are your being deliberate in your ignorance, and not really ignorant..

This is a VERY important topic for the very reason that people's salvation is at stake..

When you look at Jews and tell them you worship a different God than they do they believe you and shut their ears to the Truth.

This is wrong to do. This is a crime against God, because we worship the same God, and if we aren't it's us who is wrong.

If we can't articulate our faith truthfully to the lost, we have no business speaking to the lost at all.

I'll to respond to you later.

Well about ignorance, of course I don't think of myself as ignorant.

I do present challenges to people, questions that are tailored to move them to a place of growth.

It's like as iron sharpens iron, so a man's face and thinking is sharpened by his friend.

Of course, if interacting with me here on CC it's not edifying to you, I encourage you to stop at any time. I hope you will continue, but I don't want to pressure people.

 

[Dan_473]

What do you mean by single universal God.

Why do you believe that lumen gentium in latin different from English version, can you proof it?

Can I prove that Latin is different from English? Well of course it's a different language, and anytime you translate from one language to another, there are losses of meaning.

The idea of a single universal God, is that there is first a single God, the same way of saying that there is only one God. And the universal God, meaning both the god of the universe, and the god of everything and everywhere, as opposed to regional gods, like in the old testament some of the people around Israel had a God of this city or a god of that City. Or some religions might have a sky God and an earth God.

 

[Dan_473]

The world has been under one world government, one world religion. . . the moment God corrupted it. . We walk by faith. Satan is still the god of this world ruling in high places. Our focus is on the unseen .Drawing maps would seem to distract from getting the gospel out .

Then it becomes flesh and blood verses flesh and blood, nation against nation, family against family or denomination against denomination. That's not the kind of division as meant to be between us .

2 Corinthians 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight

I hear what you're saying, I think that goes along with the idea of the whole world being under the power of the evil one.

 

[Dan_473]

When were the time his disciple able to bear them?

When the Holy Spirit come and dwell in.

I remember talk to catholic friend about this.

He tend to say that pray to Mary is one of the teaching Jesus not tell them because they not able to bear it.

I do not believe it.

Pray to Mary is not so complicated to understand, it is no need high logical thinking level to understand the teaching of pray to Mary.

And after Holy Spirit come, the tradition of the apostles was documented in the book of act, on that book I never read the apostle pray to mary

Well let's see. I would say that the holy Spirit came to dwell in the early apostles on the day of Pentecost after Jesus rose from the dead.

Had Jesus finish saying everything he wanted to say at that Pentecost?

All the books of the New testament would have been written after that time.

 

[Jackson123]

Can I prove that Latin is different from English? Well of course it's a different language, and anytime you translate from one language to another, there are losses of meaning.

The idea of a single universal God, is that there is first a single God, the same way of saying that there is only one God. And the universal God, meaning both the god of the universe, and the god of everything and everywhere, as opposed to regional gods, like in the old testament some of the people around Israel had a God of this city or a god of that City. Or some religions might have a sky God and an earth God.

How you proof lumen gentium in Latin not say Islam worship abraham god?

Is universal God Jesus?

What happen to people that believe in one God but do not believe in Jesus? Do they save?

Is universal God teach Jesus is the only way to heaven?

 

[Dan_473]

Hello again Dan, that's not true, for this Protestant anyway, or for any others I know (well, except for a few of the "solo" Christians out here in online Christendom, I guess). This super-minority opinion has nothing to do with the historic Protestant faith, which certainly includes the Reformed (and most often highly misunderstood) doctrine known as Sola Scriptura.


That sounds about right. Of course, this approach becomes problematic since we know that Popes and Councils have disagreed with each other (the Filioque comes quickly to mind, as does the extent of Adam's fall as described and anathematized by Orange and Trent), and they (Popes/Councils) have both disagreed with some of the clear, didactic teaching of the Bible, wherever certain presuppositions or traditions required them to so.


Actually, I believe it's St. John (not Jesus) who mentions that if everything that Jesus did had been written down, the world itself would not be big enough to contain all the books that would need to be written.*

*(all that in just three short years of Jesus' ministry .. WOW, what an AMAZING thing it must have been to witness it all .. AND to walk with Him, of course .. personally ).

That said, I believe that the Bible contains every jot and tittle that God intended it to have, no more and no less. Most importantly, everything that we need to know about ourselves and about God to be saved, and to live Christian life adequately before Him, is in there .. 2 Timothy 3:16-17.

Finally, I have no problem with RCC "Traditions", unless those traditional teachings contradict what the Bible teaches us, of course, just like Jesus pointed out for us that the Jewish oral traditions often did.


You might ask someone from the EOC that very same question, since they use a different Bible than RC's do! That said, we use the same tests today that those in the late 4th (RCC) and then the late 7th (EOC) centuries used. Of course, it's always important to remember that the Apostles told us which books were Scripture as they were being written, which is why the vast majority of the NT Canon was already known by the early to mid-2nd century.

I've only touched on some of this, but I think I'll stop anyway because this is already becoming too long for a single post, IMHO. So I'll wait for your reply before I continue (and then hopefully get back to you a little more quickly than I did last time )

God bless you!

~Deut

Also, I remembered this just now.

I think Paul says in Colossians that he also wrote a letter to the laodiceans. Where is that letter? Some people say it is the book of Ephesians, but that is a guess at best, I believe.

 

[Dan_473]

How you proof lumen gentium in Latin not say Islam worship abraham god?

Is universal God Jesus?

What happen to people that believe in one God but do not believe in Jesus? Do they save?

Is universal God teach Jesus is the only way to heaven?

Well, since I don't know Latin very well, I can't prove what it says. I was just kind of thinking that if you wanted to be taken seriously in criticizing the Roman Catholic Church, you might want to deal with the actual Latin of the councils as opposed to just talking about the English or what you have heard Catholics say.

I believe that God, who is the single universal God, incarnated himself as Jesus.

When you talk about people who believe in God, but not in Jesus, there is more than one class of people here. There are people who say they believe in God and have heard about Jesus, the details of the Gospel, and rejected it. Those people are not saved.

Then there are people who say they believe in God, but have not heard about Jesus, or have heard loads of wrong facts about Jesus. In that case, can those people be saved? When you and I talked about this earlier in the thread, I believe we agreed that we didn't know.

 

[Jackson123]

Well let's see. I would say that the holy Spirit came to dwell in the early apostles on the day of Pentecost after Jesus rose from the dead.

Had Jesus finish saying everything he wanted to say at that Pentecost?

All the books of the New testament would have been written after that time.

I agree They start to able to bear more because Holy Spirit that dwell in them help them to understand more.

And they wrote the teaching to other, to make other to accept Jesus. But the main teaching is done by Jesus. It is love.

All other teaching is base on love.

Than the apostle elaborate in a way to make them understand.

For example the book of act.

It is wrote by Luke for Theophilus

Act1

1 The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach,

Is that new teaching other than what Jesus teach?

No. It is the story of what some apostles did, to convince Theophilus that Jesus is God.

In Indonesians, it translate the story of apostles. Or save to say the tradition of the apostle.

Nothing of it say they pray to Mary.

 

[Jackson123]

Well, since I don't know Latin very well, I can't prove what it says. I was just kind of thinking that if you wanted to be taken seriously in criticizing the Roman Catholic Church, you might want to deal with the actual Latin of the councils as opposed to just talking about the English or what you have heard Catholics say.

I believe that God, who is the single universal God, incarnated himself as Jesus.

When you talk about people who believe in God, but not in Jesus, there is more than one class of people here. There are people who say they believe in God and have heard about Jesus, the details of the Gospel, and rejected it. Those people are not saved.

Then there are people who say they believe in God, but have not heard about Jesus, or have heard loads of wrong facts about Jesus. In that case, can those people be saved? When you and I talked about this earlier in the thread, I believe we agreed that we didn't know.

I do not know Latin, but I believe they interprate correctly. The interpretation some time have a problem to express art, the emotion expression or the beauty of the the country etc, but not a simple teaching like Muslim along with us adore abraham god.

I am not talking about a person that never hear about Jesus.

I am talking about, is muslim adore abraham god, and make them in the plan of salvation?

 

[Dan_473]

I agree They start to able to bear more because Holy Spirit that dwell in them help them to understand more.

And they wrote the teaching to other, to make other to accept Jesus. But the main teaching is done by Jesus. It is love.

All other teaching is base on love.

Than the apostle elaborate in a way to make them understand.

For example the book of act.

It is wrote by Luke for Theophilus

Act1

1 The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach,

Is that new teaching other than what Jesus teach?

No. It is the story of what some apostles did, to convince Theophilus that Jesus is God.

In Indonesians, it translate the story of apostles. Or save to say the tradition of the apostle.

Nothing of it say they pray to Mary.

Doesn't Jesus continue speaking, though, to Christians after that first day of Pentecost? Like at the beginning of Revelation, Jesus is speaking to John, and tells him to write a letter to the seven churches in Asia.

Also, is this the same teaching that Jesus was doing when he walked here on Earth?
Jude 1: 9. But Michael, the archangel, when contending with the devil and arguing about the body of Moses, dared not bring against him an abusive condemnation, but said, "May the Lord rebuke you!"

 

[Dan_473]

I do not know Latin, but I believe they interprate correctly. The interpretation some time have a problem to express art, the emotion expression or the beauty of the the country etc, but not a simple teaching like Muslim along with us adore abraham god.

I am not talking about a person that never hear about Jesus.

I am talking about, is muslim adore abraham god, and make them in the plan of salvation?

Well, the Muslim that we are talking about, what have they heard about Jesus?

 

[Dan_473]

I do not know Latin, but I believe they interprate correctly. The interpretation some time have a problem to express art, the emotion expression or the beauty of the the country etc, but not a simple teaching like Muslim along with us adore abraham god.

I am not talking about a person that never hear about Jesus.

I am talking about, is muslim adore abraham god, and make them in the plan of salvation?

Also, I would say that a work of theology like the lumen gentium does run into the same problems of translation as talking about a work of art or beauty.

Have you read the entire document? Its pretty long, I haven't.

 

[Jackson123]

Doesn't Jesus continue speaking, though, to Christians after that first day of Pentecost? Like at the beginning of Revelation, Jesus is speaking to John, and tells him to write a letter to the seven churches in Asia.

Also, is this the same teaching that Jesus was doing when he walked here on Earth?
Jude 1: 9. But Michael, the archangel, when contending with the devil and arguing about the body of Moses, dared not bring against him an abusive condemnation, but said, "May the Lord rebuke you!"

Yes, God speak to Paul after Pentecost.

Acts 16:9-15 The Message (MSG)

9-10 That night Paul had a dream: A Macedonian stood on the far shore and called across the sea, “Come over to Macedonia and help us!” The dream gave Paul his map. We went to work at once getting things ready to cross over to Macedonia. All the pieces had come together. We knew now for sure that God had called us to preach the good news to the Europeans.

11-12 Putting out from the harbor at Troas, we made a straight run for Samothrace. The next day we tied up at New City and walked from there to Philippi, the main city in that part of Macedonia and, even more importantly, a Roman colony. We lingered there several days.

Again, it is not a new teaching and it is inline with the bible

 

[Jackson123]

Also, I would say that a work of theology like the lumen gentium does run into the same problems of translation as talking about a work of art or beauty.

Have you read the entire document? Its pretty long, I haven't.

No I haven't, but the statement of

Islam worship abraham god is simple statement. It is not art work.

 

[Jackson123]

Well, the Muslim that we are talking about, what have they heard about Jesus?

I do not know if all Muslim heard about Jesus, but to say Muslim adore abraham's God is lie