The Tribulation and the Church, WHEN?

[cv5]

Rev 6
15And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 16And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
Rev 11
18And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
Rev 14
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
9And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
Rev 15
And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.
And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.
Rev 16:1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
19And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
15And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Disagreeing with what you have posted is outright rebellion and worse. Had to put that person on iggy.

 

[GaryA]

When I say that [something] is not part of the Great Tribulation, I am referring to it (GT) with specific regard to the span of time that defines its beginning and end according to the manner that Jesus states it in Matthew 24.

The Bible indicates to us in no uncertain terms - with regard to that time span - what is and is not part of the Great Tribulation.

And, the Trumpet events, the Return of Christ, and the Wrath of God are not within that time span...

It is quite clear...

 

[GaryA]

The first five seals, on the other hand, are within that time span...

EDIT: Go take a look at the 'Order Of Events' page on my website.

 

[GaryA]

And, the Trumpet events, the Return of Christ, and the Wrath of God are not within that time span...

It is quite clear...

And, some folks simply refuse to accept scripture when it says "Immediately after the tribulation of those days" or "But in those days, after that tribulation"...

 

[Nebuchadnezzer]

Nah, I think the "all" is in reference to the fact that Paul's primary focus in the preceding verses is the "STILL-LIVING" portion of "the Church which is His body" (at the point in time he's zeroing in on in vv.2-4), but also makes a side comment about the fact that those of us (that is, of "the Church which is His body") who happen to DIE first (before the point in time he's referencing there, esp. in vv.2-4) will still be "in His presence"... so that EITHER WAY (whether by means of death first, or while still-living [<--which he says is his and our preference, in that, we are INTENSELY DESIRING same], it's all good, coz the end result of either [that is, for "us" ALL] is to be in His presence.

It's just that the "Bema seat judgment of Christ" doesn't take place UNTIL that specific point in time Paul is referencing here (meaning, the entire "Church which is His body" must be completed and present together for it... it doesn't take place upon each individual Christian's death, for example). Make sense?

I gotcha! You have to weave the obvious in such a way to make corroborate the rapture and that the beast and false prophet are individual persons.

And now we can say that, "all men die and face judgement" doesn't mean that all men die and face judgement.
And this is despite the fact that we know that all men die.

 

[cv5]

I gotcha! You have to weave the obvious in such a way to make corroborate the rapture and that the beast and false prophet are individual persons.

And now we can say that, "all men die and face judgement" doesn't mean that all men die and face judgement.
And this is despite the fact that we know that all men die.

Nope. Both could be either exceptions (in the negative sense) as were Elijah and Enoch, or the could be Nephilim who receive summary judgement as were the wicked demons who begged Christ not to send them to the abyss. There are other possibilities as well.

The Pre-Trib Rapture preserving the Church the Bride of Christ from wrath has several types noted in the OT as well. Obvious to those who have eyes to see with and wisdom, hidden to.....others.

 

[Nebuchadnezzer]

And I have but one question for you: Has this event occurred yet?

1 Cor 15:24

"Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power."

It sounds like this hasn't occurred yet.

 

[Nebuchadnezzer]

Nope. Both could be either exceptions (in the negative sense) as were Elijah and Enoch, or the could be Nephilim who receive summary judgement as were the wicked demons who begged Christ not to send them to the abyss. There are other possibilities as well.

The Pre-Trib Rapture preserving the Church the Bride of Christ from wrath has several types noted in the OT as well. Obvious to those who have eyes to see with and wisdom, hidden to.....others.

It is interesting how you point to Christ who sent the demons to the abyss.

From what I understand Satan and his demons have already been judged. This is why they can be cast straight into the Lake of Fire whenever God chooses. But man has not been judged yet. No man receives judgement from God until after his death.
This is why no man can be cast straight into the Lake of Fire. For it would be unjust to sentence any man to eternal death in the Lake of Fire before they have been judged. It would be like executing an accused murderer before he has been judged and convicted.

Therefore, the scriptures point to the Beast and False Prophet being demons or some type of manifestations of Satan. Therefore, they have already received judgement and this is why they can be cast alive into the Lake of Fire.

Furthermore this has led me to study upon Enoch and Elijah, and to eventually lean toward the idea that they did in fact experience the 1st death. The Word of God does sound like it is saying that Enoch and Elijah did not experience death. But what I see the entire Word of God eluding to is that Enoch and Elijah did not and will not experience the 2nd death (which is the real death). But the 2nd death is not clearly defined until the last book of the bible, the Book of Revelation.

 

[cv5]

It is interesting how you point to Christ who sent the demons to the abyss.

From what I understand Satan and his demons have already been judged. This is why they can be cast straight into the Lake of Fire whenever God chooses. But man has not been judged yet. No man receives judgement from God until after his death.
This is why no man can be cast straight into the Lake of Fire. For it would be unjust to sentence any man to eternal death in the Lake of Fire before they have been judged. It would be like executing an accused murderer before he has been judged and convicted.

Therefore, the scriptures point to the Beast and False Prophet being demons or some type of manifestations of Satan. Therefore, they have already received judgement and this is why they can be cast alive into the Lake of Fire.

Furthermore this has led me to study upon Enoch and Elijah, and to eventually lean toward the idea that they did in fact experience the 1st death. The Word of God does sound like it is saying that Enoch and Elijah did not experience death. But what I see the entire Word of God eluding to is that Enoch and Elijah did not and will not experience the 2nd death (which is the real death). But the 2nd death is not clearly defined until the last book of the bible, the Book of Revelation.

I am happy to say that we can agree on a number of these items and principles. Thank you and have a blessed evening.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Such subtlties are lost on many. For no good reason.

So true! But, it is uplifting to know that Spirit has revealed the same truth to you and others as well.

By their claim of the church going through the time of God's wrath, they make no difference between and the wicked and the righteous. Yet scripture states that believers are not in darkness so that this day (gathering of the church) should surprise us like a thief."

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

I gotcha! You have to weave the obvious in such a way to make corroborate the rapture and that the beast and false prophet are individual persons.
And now we can say that, "all men die and face judgement" doesn't mean that all men die and face judgement.
And this is despite the fact that we know that all men die.

Not sure what your first part means (our Rapture does not take place in Rev19, if you mean that!), but as to the second part (the bold)...

Are you saying you believe that we all must DIE before the Rapture can happen??

Consider the following, regarding what we are told about both those who have DIED [saints] and the STILL-ALIVE/STILL-LIVING [also, saints] (both/either at the time of "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]" and [those also] at His "RETURN [to the earth]"):

--"the DEAD in Christ"; and the "we which are ALIVE and remain unto" [1Th4; speaking of the Church which is His body's "harpagēsometha" at our "episynagōgēs"/"meeting of the Lord IN THE AIR" event]

--"this CORRUPTIBLE must put on incorruption" (<--this is "the DEAD in Christ" segment);
"and this MORTAL must put on immortality" (<--this is the "we which are ALIVE and remain unto" [1Cor15:51-54; whereas 2Cor5:2-4 zeroes in on THIS segment of "the Church which is His body": the "STILL-LIVING" (members of the Body) at the time of "our Rapture"<--"that MORTALITY [<--THIS pertains to the "still-living" segment] might be swallowed up OF LIFE"

(Paul is making the point ^ that though we [His Body] are "EARNESTLY DESIRING" the "clothed upon" thing [being "clothed upon" with our GLORIFIED body APART from having to DIE first];

...that he is "WILLING" to "DIE" first [the "unclothed" thing of this passage: that is, being apart from our body, for a time, UPON DEATH] IF that so be His will (b/c either way, the result/outcome is to be "present with the Lord")])


--Jesus said (in the context of Martha speaking with Him about "the Last Day" [not a singular 24-hr day, but the Millennial Day]):

"I AM the Resurrection AND the LIFE: he that believeth in Me, thought he were DEAD [/even though he may DIE], yet shall he LIVE: AND whosoever LIVETH and believeth in Me SHALL NEVER DIE. Believest thou this?"

(those [saints] who will ENTER the MK age in their mortal bodies [capable of bearing children/reproducing] WILL NEVER DIE, because of Christ Who IS "THE LIFE" and Who will have "RETURNED" and will be REIGNING in POWER!! [you know, the One Who raised the dead in His earthly ministry even before His death/resurrection and exaltation!

--this ^ , then, has to do with the "THEN" word in 1Cor15:24, which is a SEQUENTIAL word with no time element attached to it (so it is not saying "THEN [immediately] the end" but "THEN [SEQUENTIALLY] the end"... "FOR He must reign, TILL..." [<--all following His "RETURN" to the earth]; there are quite a number of passages that speak of the "still-living" persons who will ENTER the MK age in just such a way, Dan12:12's "BLESSED" verse is one such verse; Matthew 25:31-34's "BLESSED" passage is another; Luke 12:36-37,38,40,42-44 is yet another "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding"... THEN the meal! "BLESSED IS...")


Do you think any of these passages are making the point, say, that before we can experience "our Rapture," that we must physically DIE FIRST?


Consider also:

--2Cor5:14-15 -
"14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead.
15 And that he died for all, that THEY WHICH LIVE should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto Him which died for them, and rose again."

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ EDIT (again, of course ): should read "though he were DEAD" (not "thought he were DEAD") lol

 

[Ahwatukee]

Correct! Aaaannnd - that means He has to be here at the time He "dishes it out" - from start to finish.

(albeit, angels are involved; however, He is directing them)

Think about this for a while...

No, it doesn't mean that Jesus has to be on the earth. Don't you think that God can mete out His wrath through the angels? If what you said was the truth, how do you explain the following which Jesus interjects after the 6th bowl has been poured out?

"The sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up to prepare the way for the kings from the East. Then I saw three impure spirits that looked like frogs; they came out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet. They are demonic spirits that perform signs, and they go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them for the battle on the great day of God Almighty.

“Look, I come like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake and remains clothed, so as not to go naked and be shamefully exposed.”

If Jesus was already on the earth during that time, He wouldn't be saying "Look, I come like a thief" at the opening of the 6th seal.

As far as "thinking about this for a while," I have spent the last 45 years studying this. Jesus is not going to return to the earth until after the 7th bowl has been poured out.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Another EDIT* to my post: ""FOR He must reign, TILL..." [<--(*and should say*-->) INCLUDING following His "RETURN" to the earth]

 

[Ahwatukee]

Why do you say that there will be saved people who "make it through the tribulation alive" when - at the time the 144K are sealed - they are the only saved people on earth?

Man, I have to say that you are very messed up in your exegesis of end-time events!

Revelation 7:9-17 would disagree with you which introduces the great tribulation saints who will be on the earth during that last seven years. We also have Revelation 13:5-7 stating that the beast will be given authority to make war and conquer the saints for forty-two months, which is the last 3 1/2 years of that seven year period. Therefore, if he conquers the saints during the great tribulation, then it would demonstrate that the saints are on the earth during that time.

Where in the world did you get the idea that the 144,000 are the only saved people on the earth?

============================================================================
"After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands.

"Then one of the elders asked me, “These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?”

I answered, “Sir, you know.”

And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
=========================================================================

The "great tribulation" covers the last 3 1/2 years of that seven year period, which is initiated by the abomination being set up in the holy place within the temple. This group is said to have "washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb" which means that they are saved.

Not only that, but if you have only the 144,000 out of Israel being saved, then you would have no Gentiles entering into the millennial kingdom to repopulate it. However, we have plenty of scriptures which reveal that Gentiles will be entering into the millennial kingdom, like the one below:

"He will judge between the nations and will settle disputes for many peoples. They will beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will not take up sword against nation, nor will they train for war anymore."

The event above takes place when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age. Notice that it states that "He will judge between the nations" and that "Nation will not take up sword against nation," which would demonstrate that there will indeed be Gentiles saved during the tribulation period with many making it through alive when Jesus returns.

The male child is a collective name representing the 144,000 who will be caught up to God and His throne in the middle of the seven years.

 

[Absolutely]

SMH

"It's sad... It's really sad..."

Those verses don't actually say all of that - not even close.

In fact, most of that appears to be completely absent from what the Bible does actually say. (anywhere in the Bible)

Post it.
It says "from heaven"
Gathered FROM HEAVEN.
That is what it says.
Not what you want or hope.

 

[Absolutely]

Just how many resurrection/rapture/gathering events - that take place in the presence of Jesus right after He "arrives on the scene" - do you think the Bible indicates that there are?

Several.
According to the bible

 

[Absolutely]

And, some folks simply refuse to accept scripture when it says "Immediately after the tribulation of those days" or "But in those days, after that tribulation"...

Re read it.
They are indeed gathered after the gt.
FROM HEAVEN...NOT EARTH.

 

[GaryA]

At the moment of resurrection - during the change from old mortal body to new glorified body - the old body [literally] dies. I believe this is sufficient for the requirement...

In other words, those who go through "the change" alive - still - technically - die.

 

[GaryA]

By their claim of the church going through the time of God's wrath, they make no difference between and the wicked and the righteous.

I know of no one on earth who has ever made such a claim.

Why do you say stuff like this?