If Perchance Catholicism Is Mistaken

[Dan_473]

So, what is the first pope St. Peter doing, he preach Jesus is the only savior, in and out prison while you do not need to believe Jesus to be save?

Do you think St. Peter dumb?

I did not say that a person doesn't need to believe in Jesus to be saved.

I said I wasn't sure if a person had to believe that Jesus was God incarnate to be saved.

This is an example
John 4: 10. Jesus answered her, "If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, 'Give me a drink,' you would have asked him, and he would have given you living water."

Is Jesus saying that the woman has to believe that he is God? Or is he asking her to accept him as the Messiah?

 

[Dan_473]

They think they believe in abraham god but is not.

Same problem with people that think they believe and worship jesus but is not

Matt 7

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.


22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

These people think they believe in Jesus, call Jesus god, but is not. Believe in jesus not only believe that Jesus God, but also believe all the teaching of Jesus.

My brother, if you believe Muslim, Jews that thausand time hear about Jesus and refused to believe go to heaven, I suspect you do not believe the teaching of Jesus

John 14:6 King James Version (KJV)
6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Okay, so following your train of thought, the Jews do not believe in Abraham God.

But Paul says that the Jews have a zeal for God, they just lack knowledge.

Lumen gentium is about Christ as the light to the gentiles, the Nations.

At first it talks about how that light of Christ is most visible in the Catholic Church, then a bit less visible in non-catholic Christian groups.

Then they go on to talk about Jews, Muslims, and those who worship the unknown God. I think they are saying that each has a decreasing amount of light, of Revelation about God.

This line of thinking is not found just in Catholics. Many Protestants think the same thing, though they reverse the role of protestant and Catholic, with Protestant having the most light.

One of the big questions is what happens to people who have never heard the gospel or the name of Jesus. Are they condemned to eternity without God, or is it possible for them to go to heaven.

Here's a website with a lot of details
https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/what-happens-to-those-who-never-hear-gospel/

That particular website says that people who have never heard the gospel are condemned to eternity apart from God, I think that's what they say.

But not everyone thinks that, many Protestants don't think that.

So, do Muslims worship Abraham God? Well, as I talked about above, the answer a person gives will be related to how a person answers the question
do the Jews worship Abraham God?

If you look through the many posts earlier, I think you'll see that people other than myself have also said that the Jews worship Abraham God, in so many words. I believe you also said that the Jews worship Abraham God earlier, though I could be wrong about that. And of course Paul seems to indicate that the Jews worship Abraham God.

So in the same sense that the Jews worship Abraham God, the Muslims also worship Abraham God. They just have even less knowledge about God than the Jews.

 

[Hazelelponi]

Okay, so following your train of thought, the Jews do not believe in Abraham God.

But Paul says that the Jews have a zeal for God, they just lack knowledge.

Lumen gentium is about Christ as the light to the gentiles, the Nations.

At first it talks about how that light of Christ is most visible in the Catholic Church, then a bit less visible in non-catholic Christian groups.

Then they go on to talk about Jews, Muslims, and those who worship the unknown God. I think they are saying that each has a decreasing amount of light, of Revelation about God.

This line of thinking is not found just in Catholics. Many Protestants think the same thing, though they reverse the role of protestant and Catholic, with Protestant having the most light.

One of the big questions is what happens to people who have never heard the gospel or the name of Jesus. Are they condemned to eternity without God, or is it possible for them to go to heaven.

Here's a website with a lot of details
https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/what-happens-to-those-who-never-hear-gospel/

That particular website says that people who have never heard the gospel are condemned to eternity apart from God, I think that's what they say.

But not everyone thinks that, many Protestants don't think that.

So, do Muslims worship Abraham God? Well, as I talked about above, the answer a person gives will be related to how a person answers the question
do the Jews worship Abraham God?

If you look through the many posts earlier, I think you'll see that people other than myself have also said that the Jews worship Abraham God, in so many words. I believe you also said that the Jews worship Abraham God earlier, though I could be wrong about that. And of course Paul seems to indicate that the Jews worship Abraham God.

So in the same sense that the Jews worship Abraham God, the Muslims also worship Abraham God. They just have even less knowledge about God than the Jews.

Jews worship the same Abrahamic God we do. Yes.

Muslims do not.

I even went so far as to explain why before, and then you went on a Jew quest ignoring all I was trying to say.

Paying lip service to a different Jesus while denying the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob is not the same "God" we believe in. It's pagan.

 

[Jackson123]

I did not say that a person doesn't need to believe in Jesus to be saved.

I said I wasn't sure if a person had to believe that Jesus was God incarnate to be saved.

This is an example
John 4: 10. Jesus answered her, "If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, 'Give me a drink,' you would have asked him, and he would have given you living water."

Is Jesus saying that the woman has to believe that he is God? Or is he asking her to accept him as the Messiah?

If you knew who is it who say to you = if you knew who I am= if you knew I am god

 

[Jackson123]

Okay, so following your train of thought, the Jews do not believe in Abraham God.

But Paul says that the Jews have a zeal for God, they just lack knowledge.

Lumen gentium is about Christ as the light to the gentiles, the Nations.

At first it talks about how that light of Christ is most visible in the Catholic Church, then a bit less visible in non-catholic Christian groups.

Then they go on to talk about Jews, Muslims, and those who worship the unknown God. I think they are saying that each has a decreasing amount of light, of Revelation about God.

This line of thinking is not found just in Catholics. Many Protestants think the same thing, though they reverse the role of protestant and Catholic, with Protestant having the most light.

One of the big questions is what happens to people who have never heard the gospel or the name of Jesus. Are they condemned to eternity without God, or is it possible for them to go to heaven.

Here's a website with a lot of details
https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/what-happens-to-those-who-never-hear-gospel/

That particular website says that people who have never heard the gospel are condemned to eternity apart from God, I think that's what they say.

But not everyone thinks that, many Protestants don't think that.

So, do Muslims worship Abraham God? Well, as I talked about above, the answer a person gives will be related to how a person answers the question
do the Jews worship Abraham God?

If you look through the many posts earlier, I think you'll see that people other than myself have also said that the Jews worship Abraham God, in so many words. I believe you also said that the Jews worship Abraham God earlier, though I could be wrong about that. And of course Paul seems to indicate that the Jews worship Abraham God.

So in the same sense that the Jews worship Abraham God, the Muslims also worship Abraham God. They just have even less knowledge about God than the Jews.

I do not say Jews do not believe abraham god, I say some Jews did not.

Muslim not believe Jesus as a god. So catholic is lie

 

[JamOn]

The wheat wafers and the community cup tradition seems strikingly similar to what was going on in 1 cor 11. though in the day probably turkey legs and jugs now it’s been reduce to a wafer and a sip.

1 cor 11

17Now in giving these instructions I do not praise you, since you come together not for the better but for the worse. 18For first of all, when you come together as a church, I hear that there are divisions among you, and in part I believe it. 19For there must also be factions among you, that those who are approved may be recognized among you. 20Therefore when you come together in one place, it is not to eat the Lord’s Supper. 21For in eating, each one takes his own supper ahead of others; and one is hungry and another is drunk. 22What! Do you not have houses to eat and drink in? Or do you despise the church of God and shame those who have nothing? What shall I say to you? Shall I praise you in this? I do not praise you.


23For I received from the Lord that which I also delivered to you: that the Lord Jesus on the same night in which He was betrayed took bread; 24and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, “Take, eat; this is My body which is broken for you; do this in remembrance of Me.” 25In the same manner He also took the cup after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood. This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me.”
26For as often as you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death till He comes.


27Therefore whoever eats this bread or drinks this cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. 28But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of the bread and drink of the cup. 29For he who eats and drinks in an unworthy manner eats and drinks judgment to himself, not discerning the Lord’s body. 30For this reason many are weak and sick among you, and many sleep. 31For if we would judge ourselves, we would not be judged. 32But when we are judged, we are chastened by the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world.

33Therefore, my brethren, when you come together to eat, wait for one another. 34But if anyone is hungry, let him eat at home, lest you come together for judgment. And the rest I will set in order when I come.

 

[Locoponydirtman]

I do not say Jews do not believe abraham god, I say some Jews did not.

Muslim not believe Jesus as a god. So catholic is lie

As A God?
Or is God?

 

[Jackson123]

As A God?
Or is God?

Muslim do not believe Jesus Either as a or is God

 

[Locoponydirtman]

Muslim do not believe Jesus Either as a or is God

I'm asking you?

 

[Hazelelponi]

I'm asking you?

His English isn't the best, I believe He is simply saying Muslims don't recognize the Divinity of Christ.

 

[Jackson123]

I'm asking you?

Yes my answer is

Muslim do not believe Jesus is God

And Muslim do not believe Jesus as a God.

Both are true

 

[MattforJesus]

Are there any denominations without wolves in sheep's clothing? I doubt it.

That is true.

2Ti 2:20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.
2Ti 2:21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

It is obvious that God is speaking of a Church that preaches the truth for He called it a great house, and said there will be some to dishonor, some hypocrites that will not do right concerning that truth.

If God said a great house that preaches the truth will have some to dishonor, some hypocrites, some rascals running around, how much more will Churches have wolves in sheep's clothing, and hypocrites, that is less than the great house God is speaking about.

If there is wolves in sheep's clothing, and hypocrites, some to dishonor that is not doing right in a Church that preaches the truth according to the ways of God that He calls it a great house then the Churches that fall short of that standard would really have a serious problem with wolves in sheep's clothing, and hypocrites.

 

[JamOn]

That is true.

2Ti 2:20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.
2Ti 2:21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

It is obvious that God is speaking of a Church that preaches the truth for He called it a great house, and said there will be some to dishonor, some hypocrites that will not do right concerning that truth.

If God said a great house that preaches the truth will have some to dishonor, some hypocrites, some rascals running around, how much more will Churches have wolves in sheep's clothing, and hypocrites, that is less than the great house God is speaking about.

If there is wolves in sheep's clothing, and hypocrites, some to dishonor that is not doing right in a Church that preaches the truth according to the ways of God that He calls it a great house then the Churches that fall short of that standard would really have a serious problem with wolves in sheep's clothing, and hypocrites.

Sounds like the Catholic Church with all the paedophile problems

 

[Jackson123]

Sounds like the Catholic Church with all the paedophile problems

Yep, and with all lie, (Muslim in the plan of salvation)

 

[garee]

I don't have a firm opinion about which books should be in the Bible. I do think there was a kind of confirmation bias, when a person has grown up with a set of books and believed they are the scriptures. Then, because they don't want to see a conflict, they will say it all fits together beautifully.

But Martin Luther said basically that the book of James contained wrong theology. And he also didn't really like the book of Revelation, if I remember right.

Is the book of Revelation the last book to be written? When were the books of second and third John written? It is tradition that they were written by the apostle John.

And of course, to say that nothing can be written after the book of Revelation assumes that the book of Revelation is scripture. But who wrote it? Again without looking a tradition, all that can be said is someone named John... Or someone claiming to be John, there were lots of forgeries back then, I hear.

Not sure what Martin Luther said ? He is no longer here.

The 66 books remain the one source of hearing God.. as it is written.(sola scriptura) The author of the Spirit of faith witnesses to our spirit.

I would not assume Revelation is one of the chapters. Assuming can only produce doubt not faith as a law needed to believe God. . its the last chapter... No private revelations (catholisicim and corrupted Judaism) to give the illusion God has violate his own word and is still bring new revelations. as a law .

Prophesying is the "gift of interpreting the word of God as a tradition of God. In that way no man can serve two masters. (1) The things of men(seen) and (2) those of God. (unseen)

We are lovingly commanded (2 Peter 2) not to seek the approval of men as we study .

Prophecy God's interpretation informs us there must be heresies as opinions of men also called private interpretations as personal commentaries . Like fingerprints every man has a opinion to offer to include Mr. Luther. .

The Catholic using their law book( CCC) " law of the fathers" or called "Apostolic succession" They make the divine word of God to no effect .

They make great claims of being divine (two masters) and with one stroke of the pen (highlighted in red) make the word of God (sola scriptura) without effect.

CCC Search Result - Paragraph # 80 -

Law # 80 "Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture, then, are bound closely together, and communicate one with the other. For both of them, flowing out from the same "divine" well-spring, come together in some fashion to form one thing, and move towards the same goal." Each of them makes present and fruitful

The fruit of lies. Did God really say?

2 Corinthians 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight.

 

[Jackson123]

Not sure what Martin Luther said ? He is no longer here.

The 66 books remain the one source of hearing God.. as it is written.(sola scriptura) The author of the Spirit of faith witnesses to our spirit.

I would not assume Revelation is one of the chapters. Assuming can only produce doubt not faith as a law needed to believe God. . its the last chapter... No private revelations (catholisicim and corrupted Judaism) to give the illusion God has violate his own word and is still bring new revelations. as a law .

Prophesying is the "gift of interpreting the word of God as a tradition of God. In that way no man can serve two masters. (1) The things of men(seen) and (2) those of God. (unseen)

We are lovingly commanded (2 Peter 2) not to seek the approval of men as we study .

Prophecy God's interpretation informs us there must be heresies as opinions of men also called private interpretations as personal commentaries . Like fingerprints every man has a opinion to offer to include Mr. Luther. .

The Catholic using their law book( CCC) " law of the fathers" or called "Apostolic succession" They make the divine word of God to no effect .

They make great claims of being divine (two masters) and with one stroke of the pen (highlighted in red) make the word of God (sola scriptura) without effect.



The fruit of lies. Did God really say?

2 Corinthians 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight.

Catholic believe Bible is tradition, and pray to Mary is also tradition.

What is tradition.

Definition of tradition

1a: an inherited, established, or customary pattern of thought, action, or behavior (such as a religious practice or a social custom)
b: a belief or story or a body of beliefs or stories relating to the past that are commonly accepted as historical though not verifiable … the bulk of traditions attributed to the Prophet …— J. L. Esposito
2: the handing down of information, beliefs, and customs by word of mouth or by example from one generation to another without written instruction
3: cultural continuity in social attitudes, customs, and institutions
4: characteristic manner, method, or style in the best liberal tradition


An inherited

Pray to Mary is not an herited from the apostle, it is inherited from pagan religion, pray to queen of heaven.

If this belief inherited from the apostle, it must record in act.

Act is the story of the apostle.

 

[Dan_473]

Jews worship the same Abrahamic God we do. Yes.

Muslims do not.

I even went so far as to explain why before, and then you went on a Jew quest ignoring all I was trying to say.

Paying lip service to a different Jesus while denying the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob is not the same "God" we believe in. It's pagan.

LOL, a Jew quest?

I believe I had asked you whether the Jews worshipping a God who is not a trinity is enough do you mean that they are not worshiping the same God. I don't remember seeing your answer.

Here's how I see it.
God is a trinity, and that is part of his nature.
The Jews worship a God that is a trinity, they just deny that God is a trinity. But their denial of part of God's nature doesn't mean that they are not worshiping the same God that Christians are.

So following that same line of thinking, I agree that Muslims deny parts of God's nature. They do affirm that there is only one God, and that is true. But, just as the Jews denying part of God's nature is not enough to mean but they are worshipping a different God, so also with Muslims... Their denial of part of God's nature is not enough to mean that they are worshipping a different God than Christians.

I do agree that Muslims are wrong about many things concerning God.

Similar situation with those who throughout history have worshipped the unknown God

Acts 17: 23. For as I passed along, and observed the objects of your worship, I found also an altar with this inscription: 'TO AN UNKNOWN GOD.' What therefore you worship in ignorance, this I announce to you. 24. The God who made the world and all things in it, he, being Lord of heaven and earth, doesn't dwell in temples made with hands,

Paul says that what those Athenians were worshipping in ignorance, he would tell them about. He proceeds to tell them about the true God, so the implication that I see is that the Athenians, at least some of them, were worshipping or at least searching for the true God, but they were doing it in ignorance.

 

[Dan_473]

If you knew who is it who say to you = if you knew who I am= if you knew I am god

Say, Jackson, did I read in a post above that you live in or sometimes visit Surabaya? Have you ever visited Gereja Mawar Sharon (Church of the Rose of Sharon)?
https://mawarsharon.com/

I used to like watching their services on YouTube. Someone used to record them and put them up but I think they were doing it without permission, because they got banned.

The church services are still on YouTube live, but because of the time difference here I usually forget to tune in!

 

[Dan_473]

If you knew who is it who say to you = if you knew who I am= if you knew I am god

So yes, that certainly is a possible interpretation!

Another passage
Mark 2: 5. Jesus, seeing their faith, said to the paralytic, "Son, your sins are forgiven you."

This is very early in Jesus ministry, what is it that they are believing about Jesus, the faith that Jesus sees? They might be believing that he is God, sure, but I think it's more likely they were believing that he was a healer.

Whatever it was they were believing, it resulted in the forgiveness of sins for the man who was paralyzed!

 

[Jackson123]

LOL, a Jew quest?

I believe I had asked you whether the Jews worshipping a God who is not a trinity is enough do you mean that they are not worshiping the same God. I don't remember seeing your answer.

Here's how I see it.
God is a trinity, and that is part of his nature.
The Jews worship a God that is a trinity, they just deny that God is a trinity. But their denial of part of God's nature doesn't mean that they are not worshiping the same God that Christians are.

So following that same line of thinking, I agree that Muslims deny parts of God's nature. They do affirm that there is only one God, and that is true. But, just as the Jews denying part of God's nature is not enough to mean but they are worshipping a different God, so also with Muslims... Their denial of part of God's nature is not enough to mean that they are worshipping a different God than Christians.

I do agree that Muslims are wrong about many things concerning God.

Similar situation with those who throughout history have worshipped the unknown God

Acts 17: 23. For as I passed along, and observed the objects of your worship, I found also an altar with this inscription: 'TO AN UNKNOWN GOD.' What therefore you worship in ignorance, this I announce to you. 24. The God who made the world and all things in it, he, being Lord of heaven and earth, doesn't dwell in temples made with hands,

Paul says that what those Athenians were worshipping in ignorance, he would tell them about. He proceeds to tell them about the true God, so the implication that I see is that the Athenians, at least some of them, were worshipping or at least searching for the true God, but they were doing it in ignorance.

But Muslim god tell mohammad that Jesus is son of Mary, and Mary is Moses sister.

Did Jews god tell Jews Jesus son of Mary, Moses sister?

Islam god told mohammad that sun set in the black mud every days

Qur’an 18:83-86—And they ask you about Dhul-Qarnain. Say: “I shall recite to you something of his story.” Verily, We established him in the earth, and We gave him the means of everything. So he followed a way. Until, when he reached the setting place of the sun, he found it setting in a spring of black muddy (or hot) water. And he found near it a people.



Did abraham God tell Jews that sun set in the spring of black muddy?

With these 2 example I believe Islam god is not abraham God, or God is liar, tell A to Christian and B to muslim