Did Jesus ever tell us that we no longer need to keep the law of Moses?
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E
What?? Again, WHo makes up this stuff? Do you people just sit around trying to figure out what others will say?
Yet you do the very thing you accuse others of.
Your pride is your own worst enemy
I have mentioned it before, but since May when I first began reading posts and posting myself I am recognizing two options in the Bible as it is translated. Through very little twisting Re 2 Peter 3:15-17, men have found another way. This is not The Way. This is likely the "Great Deception" that is causing the "Apostasy". I struggle to clarify what God's will is to these who choose the "Broad Path", but I sense the allowance of such an easily "justifiable" position in mens minds whose hearts and minds are carnal. They resist the Holy Spirit and so indulge the flesh. Many of these seek to preserve self and sin over Gods will and so they refuse to "See".
There is a wisdom in the allowance of this twisted path that leaves it an outright firm choice between the two paths. The fact that they may chose the broad path with a perceived justification is the snare. They leave the rest of scripture in the past, irrelevant and insignificant. This, as Peter said was to their own destruction.
There is a wisdom in the allowance of this twisted path that leaves it an outright firm choice between the two paths. The fact that they may chose the broad path with a perceived justification is the snare. They leave the rest of scripture in the past, irrelevant and insignificant. This, as Peter said was to their own destruction.
Yet you do the very thing you accuse others of.
Your pride is your own worst enemy
No it is a conditional clause. The word "if" signifies this and The writer of Hebrews includes himself in admonition. There is no way around that. Besides that the word "for" is used to start the sentence. This means that what follows it is being stated to assign a reason to what was previously stated. Which is an exhortation which the writer also includes himself.
Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; And having an high priest over the house of God; Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water. Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised.And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
(Heb 10:19-25 KJV)
We are to be exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching. There is no reason for an admonition after the exhortation if it were not possible for the "we" to suffer judgement and fiery indignation which shall devour the adversaries if they should be sinning willfully.
For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
(Heb 10:26-30 KJV)
The writer of Hebrews states that if they sin willfully there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins. If there is no more sacrifice for sins the "we" which includes the writer are not covered by the sacrifice of Christ and are not saved. And the "we" mentioned have a fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Judgement and fiery indignation which shall devour the adversaries. If one is devoured they are not saved they are devoured.
In verse 28 the writer continues to give the reason for the admonition by pointing back to the Judgement placed upon those who despised Moses Law. He begins that verse with the word "he". Verse 29 alludes back to the one that would chose to live in apostasy but speaks of those who do so under the New Covenant but done despite the Spirit of Grace. Of coarse the writer did not include himself or those to whom he was speaking because he and they had not apostatized. Something else too. Why the warning to himself in verse 26 and those to whom he was writing, of no more sacrifice for sins if they apostatize if it were not so.
Let's take a look. We will continue in verse 31. please notice this is the end of the admonition for a few verses. Immediately after verse 31 the writer continues to exhort those to whom he is writing. The "we" in verse 39 also includes the ones to whom he is warning. He finishes this part of the address with words of hope and encouragement. He reminds them that he is warning that they already endured a great fight of affliction, joyfully excepted the spoiling of their goods knowing in themselves in heaven they had a more enduring substance.
It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after ye were illuminated, ye endured a great fight of afflictions; Partly, whilst ye were made a gazingstock both by reproaches and afflictions; and partly, whilst ye became companions of them that were so used. For ye had compassion of me in my bonds, and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that ye have in heaven a better and an enduring substance.
He continues to tell The ones to whom have been illuminated to not cast away their confidence (their Faith) which have great recompense of reward. That better enduring substance in Heaven. He tells them that He that shall come will come don't lose hope. He reminds them the Just (the righteous) shall live by Faith but he warns them not to draw back to destruction. And then closes telling them so they do not lose hope that they are not those who sin willfully after receiving the knowledge the truth. that they have not thrown away their confidence, their faith but believe as he to the saving of the soul.
Then do not throw away your confidence (Faith), which has great reward. For you have need of patience, that having done the will of God you may obtain the promise. For, yet a very little while, and the One coming will come, "and will not delay. But the just (the righteous) shall live by faith (confidence)and if he draws back," "My soul is not pleased in him. But we are not of those withdrawing to destruction, but of faith, to the preservation of the soul.
(Heb 10:35-39)
Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; And having an high priest over the house of God; Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water. Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised.And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
(Heb 10:19-25 KJV)
We are to be exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching. There is no reason for an admonition after the exhortation if it were not possible for the "we" to suffer judgement and fiery indignation which shall devour the adversaries if they should be sinning willfully.
For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
(Heb 10:26-30 KJV)
The writer of Hebrews states that if they sin willfully there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins. If there is no more sacrifice for sins the "we" which includes the writer are not covered by the sacrifice of Christ and are not saved. And the "we" mentioned have a fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Judgement and fiery indignation which shall devour the adversaries. If one is devoured they are not saved they are devoured.
In verse 28 the writer continues to give the reason for the admonition by pointing back to the Judgement placed upon those who despised Moses Law. He begins that verse with the word "he". Verse 29 alludes back to the one that would chose to live in apostasy but speaks of those who do so under the New Covenant but done despite the Spirit of Grace. Of coarse the writer did not include himself or those to whom he was speaking because he and they had not apostatized. Something else too. Why the warning to himself in verse 26 and those to whom he was writing, of no more sacrifice for sins if they apostatize if it were not so.
Let's take a look. We will continue in verse 31. please notice this is the end of the admonition for a few verses. Immediately after verse 31 the writer continues to exhort those to whom he is writing. The "we" in verse 39 also includes the ones to whom he is warning. He finishes this part of the address with words of hope and encouragement. He reminds them that he is warning that they already endured a great fight of affliction, joyfully excepted the spoiling of their goods knowing in themselves in heaven they had a more enduring substance.
It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after ye were illuminated, ye endured a great fight of afflictions; Partly, whilst ye were made a gazingstock both by reproaches and afflictions; and partly, whilst ye became companions of them that were so used. For ye had compassion of me in my bonds, and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that ye have in heaven a better and an enduring substance.
He continues to tell The ones to whom have been illuminated to not cast away their confidence (their Faith) which have great recompense of reward. That better enduring substance in Heaven. He tells them that He that shall come will come don't lose hope. He reminds them the Just (the righteous) shall live by Faith but he warns them not to draw back to destruction. And then closes telling them so they do not lose hope that they are not those who sin willfully after receiving the knowledge the truth. that they have not thrown away their confidence, their faith but believe as he to the saving of the soul.
Then do not throw away your confidence (Faith), which has great reward. For you have need of patience, that having done the will of God you may obtain the promise. For, yet a very little while, and the One coming will come, "and will not delay. But the just (the righteous) shall live by faith (confidence)and if he draws back," "My soul is not pleased in him. But we are not of those withdrawing to destruction, but of faith, to the preservation of the soul.
(Heb 10:35-39)
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E
DeighAnn I think you are a very good communicator. It's just that some people are not carefully reading what you are saying. As in this post (below) responding to you, clearly misrepresenting what you said. No, it's not you who can't communicate, you spoke clearly
You can speak clear all day long, if what your speaking is not truth, it does not matter.
E
it seems they can give it out but they can not take it
They either attack you, Ignore you. or mock you.
yet they can say whatever they want about you and we are just supposed to take it (not that it hurts us any, Our faiht is sound, they can;t hurt us. But it is sad seeing them act this way, because they are missing out.
They either attack you, Ignore you. or mock you.
yet they can say whatever they want about you and we are just supposed to take it (not that it hurts us any, Our faiht is sound, they can;t hurt us. But it is sad seeing them act this way, because they are missing out.
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E
Amen,
like the children of Israel when they left. They received the law. But they did not practice the law. Why? They had no faith in God. Yeah they left, But every time we turn around we saw how they complained and murmured how God was not taking care of their needs.
It was not the law which was the problem, it was their faith. (or lack of)
like the children of Israel when they left. They received the law. But they did not practice the law. Why? They had no faith in God. Yeah they left, But every time we turn around we saw how they complained and murmured how God was not taking care of their needs.
It was not the law which was the problem, it was their faith. (or lack of)
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Not at all, please, I am new to this whole "Forum" thing but I consider others welcome at all times.
There is a saying in the world "Spirit of the Law" which is essentially defined as the aim and purpose of the law when it was written.
In reading the OT account of the giving of the Law on Mt. Sinai particularly when the people became frightened;
Exo 20:18-21 KJV And all the people saw the thunderings, and the lightnings, and the noise of the trumpet, and the mountain smoking: and when the people saw it, they removed, and stood afar off. (19) And they said unto Moses, Speak thou with us, and we will hear: but let not God speak with us, lest we die. (20) And Moses said unto the people, Fear not: for God is come to prove you, and that his fear may be before your faces, that ye sin not. (21) And the people stood afar off, and Moses drew near unto the thick darkness where God was.
As we see today with our own "walks" it is Gods express intent to communicate through His Holy Spirit, and His Scripture which is also Spirit breathed, but most Important is our personal communication with His Holy Spirit who "leads us into all truth" Jn 16:13.
Note the terms, conditions and preparation of Israel 3 days prior to Mt Sinai;
Exo 19:5-11 KJV Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: (6) And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel. (7) And Moses came and called for the elders of the people, and laid before their faces all these words which the LORD commanded him. (8) And all the people answered together, and said, All that the LORD hath spoken we will do. And Moses returned the words of the people unto the LORD. (9) And the LORD said unto Moses, Lo, I come unto thee in a thick cloud, that the people may hear when I speak with thee, and believe thee for ever. And Moses told the words of the people unto the LORD. (10) And the LORD said unto Moses, Go unto the people, and sanctify them to day and to morrow, and let them wash their clothes, (11) And be ready against the third day: for the third day the LORD will come down in the sight of all the people upon mount Sinai.
So the terms were set, they, Israel, were to obey His "voice". Note: the "voice" of God. How do we hear Gods voice?;
Joh 4:24 KJV God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
Joh 15:26 KJV But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
Joh 17:17 KJV Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
I do not wish to force my thinking of this on anyone, but as I read and see, and hear the OT and NT accounts of Gods dealings with men I recognize a continuity, sameness with God in His desire that all those He calls become "priests".
In modern terms and ancient terms a priest is a mediator of sorts. Just as the father in Godly homes was/is the Priest or head spiritually. These priests were and are to "hear the voice of God" in order to serve those they are given charge for. Everything was contingent on or constrained to "hearing His voice". So in Israels encounter on Mt Sinai they recognized that the "voice of God" His Holy Spirit would literally kill them, but not their bodies, their carnal man! As Moses put it;
Exo 20:20 KJV And Moses said unto the people, Fear not: for God is come to prove you, and that his fear may be before your faces, that ye sin not.
Exo 20:20 NIV Moses said to the people, "Do not be afraid. God has come to test you, so that the fear of God will be with you to keep you from sinning."
Just as an aside, I wonder sometimes if this verse is where the term 20/20 comes from originally!?
But back to your question, and I don't know if you saw my correlation between the OT Passover to Mt Sinai which was 50 days Mt Sinai was the "Giving of the Law" but more importantly it was supposed to be the "hearing of His Voice", while the NT version was identical in that between Yahshua's crucifixion and Pentecost there was 50 days. Pentecost was the receiving of the Holy Spirit of God who would lead us into all truth! His word is Truth! As I continue with my walk more "links" or relationships are made clearer to me and many times these links are very detailed. The Holy Spirit continues to clarify and illuminate His words. When I read now I read with an attentive ear as if I am asking with every letter my eyes view, what it there in this? There is always more, please show me? There truly is "always more" there that the human eye can see, but the Spirit leads us. Another aspect of my statement that the Holy Spirit is The Law, besides the correlation I just made is that the words of God are "instructions" Torah means in many respects "teachings"
Neh 9:20 KJV Thou gavest also thy good spirit to instruct them, and withheldest not thy manna from their mouth, and gavest them water for their thirst.
Luk 12:12 KJV For the Holy Ghost shall teach you in the same hour what ye ought to say.
1Jn 2:27 KJV But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
There is a "sameness" and consistency that emerges over time. What was once taught to me as a New God of the New Testament in a manner of speaking, is the same God doing the same thing for His people. The breath of life that Adam lost Gen 2:7 is what Our Heavenly Father has been restoring to us, or us to all along. Following all of the "metaphysical", spiritual laws He established that perhaps we just do not understand, He has been working at to "redeem us" Just as His Holy Spirit is the conduit or communicator between Him and us, Jesus proclaimed that our communication and fellowship with Him and the Father were absolutely linked and constrained to Knowing and Keeping His commandments. Jn 14:21, and if The Holy Spirit .....on and on I go. Sorry if this was too much.
SG
There is a saying in the world "Spirit of the Law" which is essentially defined as the aim and purpose of the law when it was written.
In reading the OT account of the giving of the Law on Mt. Sinai particularly when the people became frightened;
Exo 20:18-21 KJV And all the people saw the thunderings, and the lightnings, and the noise of the trumpet, and the mountain smoking: and when the people saw it, they removed, and stood afar off. (19) And they said unto Moses, Speak thou with us, and we will hear: but let not God speak with us, lest we die. (20) And Moses said unto the people, Fear not: for God is come to prove you, and that his fear may be before your faces, that ye sin not. (21) And the people stood afar off, and Moses drew near unto the thick darkness where God was.
As we see today with our own "walks" it is Gods express intent to communicate through His Holy Spirit, and His Scripture which is also Spirit breathed, but most Important is our personal communication with His Holy Spirit who "leads us into all truth" Jn 16:13.
Note the terms, conditions and preparation of Israel 3 days prior to Mt Sinai;
Exo 19:5-11 KJV Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: (6) And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel. (7) And Moses came and called for the elders of the people, and laid before their faces all these words which the LORD commanded him. (8) And all the people answered together, and said, All that the LORD hath spoken we will do. And Moses returned the words of the people unto the LORD. (9) And the LORD said unto Moses, Lo, I come unto thee in a thick cloud, that the people may hear when I speak with thee, and believe thee for ever. And Moses told the words of the people unto the LORD. (10) And the LORD said unto Moses, Go unto the people, and sanctify them to day and to morrow, and let them wash their clothes, (11) And be ready against the third day: for the third day the LORD will come down in the sight of all the people upon mount Sinai.
So the terms were set, they, Israel, were to obey His "voice". Note: the "voice" of God. How do we hear Gods voice?;
Joh 4:24 KJV God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
Joh 15:26 KJV But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
Joh 17:17 KJV Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
I do not wish to force my thinking of this on anyone, but as I read and see, and hear the OT and NT accounts of Gods dealings with men I recognize a continuity, sameness with God in His desire that all those He calls become "priests".
In modern terms and ancient terms a priest is a mediator of sorts. Just as the father in Godly homes was/is the Priest or head spiritually. These priests were and are to "hear the voice of God" in order to serve those they are given charge for. Everything was contingent on or constrained to "hearing His voice". So in Israels encounter on Mt Sinai they recognized that the "voice of God" His Holy Spirit would literally kill them, but not their bodies, their carnal man! As Moses put it;
Exo 20:20 KJV And Moses said unto the people, Fear not: for God is come to prove you, and that his fear may be before your faces, that ye sin not.
Exo 20:20 NIV Moses said to the people, "Do not be afraid. God has come to test you, so that the fear of God will be with you to keep you from sinning."
Just as an aside, I wonder sometimes if this verse is where the term 20/20 comes from originally!?
But back to your question, and I don't know if you saw my correlation between the OT Passover to Mt Sinai which was 50 days Mt Sinai was the "Giving of the Law" but more importantly it was supposed to be the "hearing of His Voice", while the NT version was identical in that between Yahshua's crucifixion and Pentecost there was 50 days. Pentecost was the receiving of the Holy Spirit of God who would lead us into all truth! His word is Truth! As I continue with my walk more "links" or relationships are made clearer to me and many times these links are very detailed. The Holy Spirit continues to clarify and illuminate His words. When I read now I read with an attentive ear as if I am asking with every letter my eyes view, what it there in this? There is always more, please show me? There truly is "always more" there that the human eye can see, but the Spirit leads us. Another aspect of my statement that the Holy Spirit is The Law, besides the correlation I just made is that the words of God are "instructions" Torah means in many respects "teachings"
Neh 9:20 KJV Thou gavest also thy good spirit to instruct them, and withheldest not thy manna from their mouth, and gavest them water for their thirst.
Luk 12:12 KJV For the Holy Ghost shall teach you in the same hour what ye ought to say.
1Jn 2:27 KJV But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
There is a "sameness" and consistency that emerges over time. What was once taught to me as a New God of the New Testament in a manner of speaking, is the same God doing the same thing for His people. The breath of life that Adam lost Gen 2:7 is what Our Heavenly Father has been restoring to us, or us to all along. Following all of the "metaphysical", spiritual laws He established that perhaps we just do not understand, He has been working at to "redeem us" Just as His Holy Spirit is the conduit or communicator between Him and us, Jesus proclaimed that our communication and fellowship with Him and the Father were absolutely linked and constrained to Knowing and Keeping His commandments. Jn 14:21, and if The Holy Spirit .....on and on I go. Sorry if this was too much.
SG
is the same law written on our hearts?
I used to believe this also. But then I realized, It was holding me back. It was keeping me from growing in christ, because I was to focused on self and doing, and not others and serving.
Is it not better to serve?
E
you forgot the words (BUT WE)
you also forget not everyone who was going to the churches where pauls letters were read were saved. He is the ones he is directing his writting to. Because THEY ARE the ones who are at danger of falling away, If they do not become [art of the WE who do not fall away. by being born again by Gods spirit. and laying the foundation for which their house is built. which will never crumple no matter what kind of storm they encounter.
you also forget not everyone who was going to the churches where pauls letters were read were saved. He is the ones he is directing his writting to. Because THEY ARE the ones who are at danger of falling away, If they do not become [art of the WE who do not fall away. by being born again by Gods spirit. and laying the foundation for which their house is built. which will never crumple no matter what kind of storm they encounter.
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I will say that I am old enough to remember NOT getting a trophy for being the "losing team" If you were last place you were encouraged to "hustle better next time". Yep, you weren't humiliated but you weren't celebrated either.
That said, I wonder if the practice of giving trophies to the loosers, created a culture that gave those who do not engage in obedience to Gods commandments the false sense of entitlement to getting a trophy/salvation for a race they aren't even running in?
Perhaps this is what led to this mess.
That said, I wonder if the practice of giving trophies to the loosers, created a culture that gave those who do not engage in obedience to Gods commandments the false sense of entitlement to getting a trophy/salvation for a race they aren't even running in?
Perhaps this is what led to this mess.
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these things contrast sharply the Spirit vs. the law.
they do not call the Spirit 'the Spirit of the law' and they do not say that the Spirit was to be poured out on the people at Sinai if only they hadn't feared God and asked for a mediator, lest they be destroyed.
the law brings wrath, but God has not given us a spirit of fear.
they do not call the Spirit 'the Spirit of the law' and they do not say that the Spirit was to be poured out on the people at Sinai if only they hadn't feared God and asked for a mediator, lest they be destroyed.
if it is the adherents of the law who are to be the heirs, faith is null and the promise is void, for the law brings wrath, but where there is no law there is no transgression.
(Romans 4:14-15)
(Romans 4:14-15)
the law brings wrath, but God has not given us a spirit of fear.