If Perchance Catholicism Is Mistaken

[Jackson123]

Right, most of the time God uses a human preacher.

So, using the example of the Lakota person above that I talked about, can they be saved? Or, will they just have to go to hell because there were no missionaries in that area 1000 years ago?

I do not know, but bible say is we accept Jesus, we Will save, for sure muslim God is not Christian God, to say It is is a lie

 

[Jackson123]

Also, I remember reading a long time ago about a man who was raised a devout Hindu who sought God and received a vision or maybe it was a visit from Jesus.

So yes, it does happen, but as you said it's rare. It does seem to happen in those cultures that have already had some exposure to Jesus and Christianity.

Yep, I read It happen may be more than 5 x as far as I know in Indonesia

Last time I watch testimony about muslim, he work in the construvtion. Die and rise, when he die, he went to hell, than some body took It to a beautiful city, but oN the ente ring door some body say your name is not in the book of life. He come back to life and ask around If any body know what is book of life. His neighbors is Christian preacher he heard what happen, and he show him that verse. He Said, I know what the book look like and he want to be baptist to make his name oN the book.

 

[Dan_473]

There have only been two ex cathedra proclamations, and both concern Mary: her Immaculate Conception (declared by Pope Pius IX in 1854 and grandfathered in following the First Vatican Council’s declaration of papal infallibility in 1870) and her bodily Assumption into heaven (declared by Pope Pius XII in 1950).

Yes, I'd heard it was rare, I didn't know how rare.

 

[Dan_473]

Mainline Protestants often uses F.F. Bruces' book on Cannon which employs the Fathers. We also, that the word of the fathers and catholic church on who wrote what books, there is no other historical evidence that I know of to use. Besides, God inspired it, He did not write the Bible, least it be worshiped. A well known Protestant Church Historian Phillip Schaff quotes all early sources including the Fathers, which is why I think he is the most reliable Protestant Historian.

Right, one often ends up looking at the early church fathers to see what they considered the word of God. I think that's another way of talking about tradition, since who was a father and who was a heretic would basically be based on tradition.

 

[Nehemiah6]

And I think the Catholic Church would say something similar.

Does the Catholic Church really believe in divine inspiration and its significance?

1. The CC has added seven NON-CANONICAL books to its Bibles. Both Christians and Jews reject them as being apocryphal.

2. The CC places so-called *Holy Tradition* on the same level as Scripture. Which means that it does not understand the significance of divine inspiration and authority.

 

[Magenta]

Yes, I'd heard it was rare, I didn't know how rare.

You might think that if the RCC were going to declare anything as an infallible teaching it would concern Jesus and not Mary But nooooooooooo This is the RCC after all I find their Mariology quite disturbing

 

[Dan_473]

James 2,
14 My brothers and sisters, if a person claims to have faith but does nothing, that faith is worth nothing. Faith like that cannot save anyone. 15 Suppose a brother or sister in Christ comes to you in need of clothes or something to eat. 16 And you say to them, “God be with you! I hope you stay warm and get plenty to eat,” but you don’t give them the things they need. If you don’t help them, your words are worthless. 17 It is the same with faith. If it is just faith and nothing more—if it doesn’t do anything—it is dead.

18 But someone might argue, “Some people have faith, and others have good works.” My answer would be that you can’t show me your faith if you don’t do anything. But I will show you my faith by the good I do. 19 You believe there is one God. That’s good, but even the demons believe that! And they shake with fear.

20 You fool! Faith that does nothing is worth nothing. Do you want me to prove this to you? 21 Our father Abraham was made right with God by what he did. He offered his son Isaac to God on the altar. 22 So you see that Abraham’s faith and what he did worked together. His faith was made perfect by what he did. 23 This shows the full meaning of the Scriptures that say, “Abraham believed God, and because of this faith he was accepted as one who is right with God.” Abraham was called “God’s friend.” 24 So you see that people are made right with God by what they do. They cannot be made right by faith alone.

25 Another example is Rahab. She was a prostitute, but she was made right with God by something she did. She helped those who were spying for God’s people. She welcomed them into her home and helped them escape by a different road.

26 A person’s body that does not have a spirit is dead. It is the same with faith—faith that does nothing is dead!

Ephesians 2:8-10 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)
8 I mean that you have been saved by grace because you believed. You did not save yourselves; it was a gift from God. 9 You are not saved by the things you have done, so there is nothing to boast about. 10 God has made us what we are. In Christ Jesus, God made us new people so that we would spend our lives doing the good things he had already planned for us to do.

When one takes into account Eph 2:10 there really is not a conflict. If one is walking in the Holy Spirit, they have no need for The Laws because their fruit will be in line with God's Will for Us. Romans 8, Gal 5

Yes, many people feel that there is no conflict. Martin Luther did feel that there was a big conflict.

If God is intending for each person to find the truth on their own with the help of the holy Spirit, and a person feels that the book of James is in conflict with the rest of the Bible, then it would make sense for that person to remove it from their Canon.

 

[Dan_473]

Acts 3:13 No, God did it! He is the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. He is the God of all our fathers. He gave glory to Jesus, his special servant. But you handed him over to be killed. Pilate decided to let him go free. But you told Pilate you did not want him.

Mark 12:26 Surely you have read what God said about people rising from death. In the book where Moses wrote about the burning bush, it says that God told Moses this: ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’

The real question today is, what our Jewish Brothern are depending on for Salvation.

From Jewish Encyclopedia,

"
The usual rendering in the English versions for the Hebrew words , , derivatives of the stem , which in the verb occurs only in the "nif'al" and "hif'il" forms. Other Hebrew terms translated by the corresponding forms of the English "save" and its synonyms are: (1) . This word, meaning in the "ḳal" "to live," acquires in the "pi'el" and "hif'il" the signification "to keep alive," "to save alive" (Gen. xii. 12, xix. 19, xlv. 7; Ex. i. 17, 18: Num. xxii. 33; I Sam. xxvii. 11). Ezekiel employs it to express the condition of the repentant sinner who, having escaped the penalty of sin (death), continues safe in life. (2) = "to deliver" (II Sam. xix. 9; A. V. "save "). (3) , in the "pi'el" (I Sam. xix. 11; II Sam. xix. 5; Job xx. 20). (4) = "to keep," "to spare" (Job ii. 6). (5) = "to redeem" (see Go'el). (6) = "to release."

Hosanna.
The underlying idea of all these words, save the last two, is help extended and made effective in times of need and danger, and protection from evil. "Padah" means "to free by paying ransom." "Ga'al" denotes the assumption of an obligation incumbent originally on another or in favor of another. "Yasha'" primitively means "to be or make wide." Evil and danger are always regarded as narrowing conditions or effects. From the "narrow" place the sufferer cries out. When help has come he is in a "wide" place (Ps. cxviii. 5). In battle enemies beset, surround, hem in (ib. verses 10, 11). Success in the combat relieves and removes the pressure. Hence "yasha'" and its derivatives express "victory." This is the import of the Hebrew in such passageś as Judges xv. 12; I Sam. ii. 1, xiv. 45; II Sam. xxii. 51; and Isa. xlix. 8. Combined with "rinnah," the word "yeshu'ah" signifies the jubilant cry of the victors (Ps. cxviii. 15). The passionate appeal "Hoshi'ah-nna" (ib. verse 25; = "Hosanna") ought to be rendered "Give victory," a translation all the more assured by the certainty that the psalm is Maccabean. He who leads to victory in battle, therefore, is the "moshia'" = "savior" (e.g., Othniel, in Judges iii. 9; Ehud, ib. iii. 15; Gideon, ib. vi. 36, 37; and the verb in Judges vii. 3; I Sam. xxv. 26; Ps. xliv. 4; Job xxvi. 2). But, according to the ancient concept, God Himself is the leader in battle ("Ish Milḥainah"; Ex. xv. 3). This throws light on the original bearing of the terms "savior" and "salvation" when applied to the Deity (comp. Isa. xxv. 9, xlv. 20). Language has preserved this notion in the epithet "Elohe yish'enu," which, idiomatically construed, means "our victorious God" (I Chron. xvi. 35; Ps. lxxix. 9; "thy victorious God," Isa. xvii. 10; comp. the similar construction "magen yish'aka" = "thy victorious shield," II Sam. xxii. 36; in the first three passages the A. V. has "God of our salvation" or "God of thy salvation"). Perhaps the king as the head of the army was greeted with the salutation "Hoshi'ah" = "Hosanna," corresponding to (II Kings x. 19; Neh. ii. 3). This would appear from II Kings vi. 26, the woman's apostrophe carrying with it all the greater irony if it repeated the usual greeting of respect, and the king's answer being, like that of Naomi (Ruth i. 20, 21), a clever turn of the terminology of the address. This would explain also the greeting extended to Jesus (see Hosanna) and the Messianic construction of the psalm. He was hailed thereby as "the king."

From this idea of "victory," those of help in trouble and rescue from evil are logical derivatives; but it is not impossible that even in this secondary usage of the term "salvation" the primary notion of a successful combat is operative. Evils are caused by demons: victory over them results in escape, a grateful help. Thus man is saved from trouble (Ps. xxxiv. 7, Hebr.; Isa. xxxiii. 2; Jer. xiv. 8, xxx. 7), from enemies (I Sam. iv. 3, vii. 8), from violence ("lion," Ps. xxii. 22; "men of blood,"ib. lix. 3, Hebr.), from reproach (ib. lvii. 4 [A. V. 3]), from death (ib. vi. 5, 6), from a great calamity (Jer. xxx. 7), from sin, by paying the ransom ("yifdeh"; Ps. cxxx. 8), and from uncleanness (Ezek. xxxvi. 29).

So, if you would be willing to summarize, would you say that Jews worship the God of Abraham?

 

[Dan_473]

Hebrews 11 and

Romans 2 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)
Let God Be the Judge
2 So do you think that you can judge those other people? You are wrong. You too are guilty of sin. You judge them, but you do the same things they do. So when you judge them, you are really condemning yourself. 2 God judges all who do such things, and we know his judgment is right. 3 And since you do the same things as those people you judge, surely you understand that God will punish you too. How could you think you would be able to escape his judgment? 4 God has been kind to you. He has been very patient, waiting for you to change. But you think nothing of his kindness. Maybe you don’t understand that God is kind to you so that you will decide to change your lives.

5 But you are so stubborn! You refuse to change. So you are making your own punishment greater and greater. You will be punished on the day when God will show his anger. On that day everyone will see how right God is to judge people. 6 He will reward or punish everyone for what they have done. 7 Some people live for God’s glory, for honor, and for life that cannot be destroyed. They live for those things by always continuing to do good. God will give eternal life to them. 8 But others are selfish and refuse to follow truth. They follow evil. God will show his anger and punish them. 9 He will give trouble and suffering to everyone who does evil—to the Jews first and also to those who are not Jews. 10 But he will give glory, honor, and peace to everyone who does good—to the Jews first and also to those who are not Jews. 11 God judges everyone the same. It doesn’t matter who they are.

12 People who have the law and those who have never heard of the law are all the same when they sin. People who don’t have the law and are sinners will be lost. And, in the same way, those who have the law and are sinners will be judged by the law. 13 Hearing the law does not make people right with God. They will be right before him only if they always do what the law says.

14 Those who are not Jews don’t have the law. But when they naturally do what the law commands without even knowing the law, then they are their own law. This is true even though they don’t have the written law. 15 They show that in their hearts they know what is right and wrong, the same as the law commands, and their consciences agree. Sometimes their thoughts tell them that they have done wrong, and this makes them guilty. And sometimes their thoughts tell them that they have done right, and this makes them not guilty.

16 All this will happen on the day when God will judge people’s secret thoughts through Jesus Christ. This is part of the Good News that I tell everyone.

The Jews and the Law
17 What about you? You say you are a Jew. You trust in the law and proudly claim to be close to God. 18 You know what God wants you to do. And you know what is important, because you have learned the law. 19 You think you are a guide for people who don’t know the right way, a light for those who are in the dark. 20 You think you can show foolish people what is right. And you think you are a teacher for those who are just beginning to learn. You have the law, and so you think you know everything and have all truth. 21 You teach others, so why don’t you teach yourself? You tell them not to steal, but you yourself steal. 22 You say they must not commit adultery, but you yourself are guilty of that sin. You hate idols, but you steal them from their temples. 23 You are so proud that you have God’s law, but you bring shame to God by breaking his law. 24 As the Scriptures say, “People in other nations insult God because of you.”

25 If you follow the law, then your circumcision has meaning. But if you break the law, then it is as if you were never circumcised. 26 Those who are not Jews are not circumcised. But if they do what the law says, it is as if they were circumcised. 27 You have the written law and circumcision, but you break the law. So those who are not circumcised in their bodies, but still obey the law, will show that you are guilty.

28 You are not a true Jew if you are only a Jew in your physical body. True circumcision is not only on the outside of the body. 29 A true Jew is one who is a Jew inside. True circumcision is done in the heart. It is done by the Spirit, not by the written law. And anyone who is circumcised in the heart by the Spirit gets praise from God, not from people.

Hi! if you were to summarize the above in your own words, what would they be?

 

[Dan_473]

Yes, but not Jesus, so It doesn't count

Right, so we agree that Jews believe in the God of Abraham.

Yet Jews say that Jesus is not God. So how can they be believing in the God of Abraham?

 

[Dan_473]

The book of roman is product of Holy Spirit use Paul as an agent.

Not product of Paul

Branch can not bear fruit of itself

Than who bear the fruit?

The credit goes to the vine

Sure! Then using those terms, I think the Catholics would say that God wrote the Bible and the human agent that delivered it to the world is the church, and the church was the human agent through whom the table of contents or Canon of scripture was delivered.

I think Catholics would further say that based on the above the church, the body of Christ, is the human agent through whom God delivers the correct interpretation of those scriptures.

I think Protestants would tend to say that the proper interpretation is arrived by reading the Bible on one's own, by one's self with the help of holy Spirit.

 

[Dan_473]

I do not know, but bible say is we accept Jesus, we Will save, for sure muslim God is not Christian God, to say It is is a lie

Well, then here's a question.

For those who have never heard the gospel, is it a plus to believe in a single universal God as opposed to believing in hundreds of gods?

 

[TheLearner]

The book of roman is product of Holy Spirit use Paul as an agent.

Not product of Paul

Branch can not bear fruit of itself

Than who bear the fruit?

The credit goes to the vine

2 Timothy 3:16
All Scripture is given by inspiration of God

God inspires human authors, Demons dictate to their prophets like those of Latter Day Saints, Islam and Occultic groups.

 

[notuptome]

Well, then here's a question.

For those who have never heard the gospel, is it a plus to believe in a single universal God as opposed to believing in hundreds of gods?

That would make God incapable of reaching every soul that He alone has created.

Catholicism teaches a false soteriology. All those who follow its teaching are lost. Religious yes but still lost in their sins.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Dan_473]

Yep, I read It happen may be more than 5 x as far as I know in Indonesia

Last time I watch testimony about muslim, he work in the construvtion. Die and rise, when he die, he went to hell, than some body took It to a beautiful city, but oN the ente ring door some body say your name is not in the book of life. He come back to life and ask around If any body know what is book of life. His neighbors is Christian preacher he heard what happen, and he show him that verse. He Said, I know what the book look like and he want to be baptist to make his name oN the book.

say, Jackson, if you speak Indonesian, can you help me with this?

I like the song
Ku Nyanyi Haleluya.
(I'll try to put an English translation in parentheses since this is an English language forum. So the song title is "I sing hallelujah".)

I've seen several versions on YouTube, but on each one when they come to a phrase like this
tak usah ku takut sbab Kau sertaku
(I have no need to be afraid because you are with me.)

when they sing
tak usah
(no need)
it sounds like they're leaving out the "k" sound, so it kind of sounds like they're singing
ta usah.

is there a reason they leave out k sound? I can't find a pronunciation rule about it.

thanks!


here's the song by I think the original artists

 

[TheLearner]

So, if you would be willing to summarize, would you say that Jews worship the God of Abraham?

yes

 

[TheLearner]

read to here

 

[Jackson123]

Right, so we agree that Jews believe in the God of Abraham.

Yet Jews say that Jesus is not God. So how can they be believing in the God of Abraham?

They are corrupt people, Remember in the bible story, they bribe the soldier to tell people that diciple stole Jesus body.

Yes even people say worship Abraham God some time not for real so they do not believe Jesus is God.

And Abraham God say Jesus is God, in alot of OT prophecy, yet some jew do not believe.

But moslim God tell mohammad, Jesus is not God

So catholic is Lie for say muslim worship Abraham God

 

[Jackson123]

say, Jackson, if you speak Indonesian, can you help me with this?

I like the song
Ku Nyanyi Haleluya.
(I'll try to put an English translation in parentheses since this is an English language forum. So the song title is "I sing hallelujah".)

I've seen several versions on YouTube, but on each one when they come to a phrase like this
tak usah ku takut sbab Kau sertaku
(I have no need to be afraid because you are with me.)

when they sing
tak usah
(no need)
it sounds like they're leaving out the "k" sound, so it kind of sounds like they're singing
ta usah.

is there a reason they leave out k sound? I can't find a pronunciation rule about it.

thanks!


here's the song by I think the original artists

Bapa kU datang, menyembahmu disini

Father I come,here to worship you

KU percaya kau ada disini bagiku

I believe you here for me

KU datang menyembahmu disini

I come here to worship you

Aku percaya kau ada disini bagiku

I believe you here for me

Tak usah kU takut karena kau sertaku

I don't need to be afraid, because you eith me

Tak usah kU bimbang kau didalam kU

Don't need to hesitant you in me

Saat kU lemah kau kuat kU

When I am weak, you are my strength

Tak usah kU cemas kau sertaku
I Don't to worry. Yup are with me
KU nyanyi Haleluya

I sing Haleluya

KU nyanyi Haleluya

I sing haleluya

Sungguh kau hebat

Truly, you are great

Ajaib perkasa

Wonderful mighty

Perbuatanmu Tuhan

What you do God

Di hidupku Tuhan

In my life God
Haleluya

Haleluya

KU nyanyi haluluya

I sing Haleluya x2

sungguh kau hebat

You are wonderful

Ajaib perkasa

Wonderful mighty

Perbuatanmu o di hidupku Tuhan

What you do oh in my life

The rest is repeatation

 

[Jackson123]

I make mistake

ON tak usah kU cemas kau sertaku was wrong

Must be

Tak usah kau cemas kau penghibur kU

I don't worry, you are my conforter