Once saved always saved? Or is salvation conditional on believing and following God's Word?
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no one be offended but these guys are so adorable
they took all the sammiches though
you don't want to leave me alone too long
I get inventive
they took all the sammiches though
you don't want to leave me alone too long
I get inventive
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Let's use Romans 5:12-19 as a framework to understand OSAS.
A person who is born of Adam is born "in sin". He has a sinful nature that made God rejects him.
If he, however, tries his very best to avoid doing wicked deeds, and tries his best to keep on doing good deeds, does God still reject him?
What I am asking is this simple question, "Is God's rejection of him, conditioned on him doing sinful deeds?"
A person who is born of Adam is born "in sin". He has a sinful nature that made God rejects him.
If he, however, tries his very best to avoid doing wicked deeds, and tries his best to keep on doing good deeds, does God still reject him?
What I am asking is this simple question, "Is God's rejection of him, conditioned on him doing sinful deeds?"
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that's what I understood also while drumming my fingers...
are good works what might be described as the 'duty' of believers?
Bible study, attending church regularly, giving from our resources, mission trips, loving our neighbor?
we understand that not only are certain things acceptable to God but we have actually been CREATED to do them!
so it might behoove us to understand what actually are/is what God has in mind
we have to understand the language of the day...to walk IN something, means to engage with your life
12 Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God—this is your true and proper worship. Romans 12:1
so while the idea of being good little boys and girls may have a certain appeal..especially for those who pride themselves on good behavior...that is not the point OR the meaning
SO
And whatever you do, whether in word or deed, do it all in the name of the Lord Jesus Colossians 3:17
yeah so I didn't want to give it away but you agree with scripture
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I think we make it too big of a deal.....what I mean by that is the following....
a. The root produces and the vine/branches just bear it
b. We concentrate on things to big....for example....JESUS said a cup of cold water given to a BELIEVER in the name of JESUS would not go unnoticed and or unrewarded.....
too many are overly concerned with the big things....I have always said that God is more interested in the little things..........
a. The root produces and the vine/branches just bear it
b. We concentrate on things to big....for example....JESUS said a cup of cold water given to a BELIEVER in the name of JESUS would not go unnoticed and or unrewarded.....
too many are overly concerned with the big things....I have always said that God is more interested in the little things..........
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I don't disagree. but it seems you cannot overstate it when folks want to flash 'works' cards and ask for the phonetic spelling (interpretation)
Jesus did not pass simple things over...what He said about the sparrow...I wonder how He felt when just one leper came back to thank Him
everybody wants 'a ministry' but who wants to minister?
I'm not preaching...just thinking out loud
and the children...made time for them...and so many other things
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Once someone is in Christ, nothing can take that one out of Christ. Once someone is in the body of Christ, that person cannot be taken out of the body of Christ. If Jesus came from heaven to earth and died on the cross to save his own, he will not abandon his own when they sin or go astray. As the good shepherd, he seeks out the sheep that go astray and brings us back on a good path.
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Do you know what a Gross Conceptual Error is?
Lots of people who read the bible have Gross Conceptual Errors that they bring with them and filter everything through.
A Gross Conceptual Error is a complete misunderstanding of the subject matter that takes a person down a completely different path than the one intended by a correct understanding of the subject matter.
These verses should clear it up;
John 5:39-40
39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
Do you understand what that's saying? Its saying that its NOT the bible that will save you. Its the Lord Jesus Christ that will save you.
Its not a correct understanding of scripture that will keep you saved. Its the Lord Jesus Christ that will keep you saved.
No amount of good works through your understanding and strength can be a substitute for Christ.
Lots of people who read the bible have Gross Conceptual Errors that they bring with them and filter everything through.
A Gross Conceptual Error is a complete misunderstanding of the subject matter that takes a person down a completely different path than the one intended by a correct understanding of the subject matter.
These verses should clear it up;
John 5:39-40
39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
Do you understand what that's saying? Its saying that its NOT the bible that will save you. Its the Lord Jesus Christ that will save you.
Its not a correct understanding of scripture that will keep you saved. Its the Lord Jesus Christ that will keep you saved.
No amount of good works through your understanding and strength can be a substitute for Christ.
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Appreciated bro.
I've oft wrestled with the concept, because there is a false version of salvation that masquerades as truth...it's just hard to tell for certain people that aren't intentionally preaching it.
I have my own doubts, but this has helped me a bit as some ammo for my own inner dialogue
My question is not whether or not you can lose it, but if you even have it in the first place. Like "the form of godliness but denying the power thereof" scripture and what exactly that means. I believe that he is mighty to save yes, but I also believe that each person has their own unique standard to bear up under (cross to bear possibly?), with discipline and correction along the way as we are maturing (sanctification). So there is some type of inward change with consistent progression throughout our lives. If not, I would be seriously concerned about them.
I think each person's daily crucifixion of the flesh looks different and I'm not going to judge them unilaterally, just question them and their salvation. Privately. In my own mind. It does however raise questions in my prayer life that seemingly go unanswered.
Like knowing someone is living in sin and claims to follow Christ...I just wonder, is your pastor not teaching correctly or are you in willful rebellion and how is that even possible? Then consequently feeling guilty for not pointing it out.
A particular person came to mind, so I will think about how to broach the subject.
Some other questions I was pondering seemed to answer themselves so that's cool
So almost a pointless post except that where I am right now made a lot more sense typing it out so that's certainly something to praise about!
For me a lot of this gets confusing because one of my earliest memories was when I asked Jesus to come into my heart and to save me so I just don't have much else to compare it to.
Except that it has been a constant battle my whole life. Filled with tons of vain imagination that I didn't realize until much later were "unproductive" at the very best. At worst...harlotry. Certainly has been with lust...and certain other things that I won't mention at present, just that the enemy hasn't ever been far away for me and the personal nature of the attacks get confusing...
I'd certainly like to explain what my lifelong journey has been like but I can in no way do so. There are certain doubts that I have that I don't believe can be explained with fleshly limitations. Like we can't see in the perfect as we are imperfect. We are being perfected certainly...and I am constantly surprised at the process of sanctification. I rarely take a trip down memory lane intentionally but I can't even fathom half of the headspaces I've been in, certain sins are super far removed from me that it's almost like they didn't even happen. That wasn't me...but it was me? I am now a new me? Did that make me unsaved before? Am I even saved now? Is this what sanctification looks like? Months feel like years sometimes and I feel "old"...but young at the same time.
I think it's possible I go astray a lot...in my own thinking and he brings me back.
Or potentially I am deluded, was not saved to begin with, my whole life is a lie and I won't ever be...I rebuke thoughts like that.
At present I'm just resting in Phillipians 2:12 and that it's a process of understanding what it means personally. Like the work of the word...in my own personal life, in situations, at work. I read scripture a lot of places but mostly it's just for confirmation that I'm on the right track sometimes. Not in some other footrace on a different "way".
Other times it's like a banquet or a meager meal (if I'm lazy/tired).
I suppose I've expounded a good bit in other threads and will continue to do so. Thanks once again for putting it like that.
I often wonder if sometimes our disagreements would come out rather different in person when we actually met the person. I can feel an "echo" of them online but it's fainter and possibly that could be factored in some fashion.
I've oft wrestled with the concept, because there is a false version of salvation that masquerades as truth...it's just hard to tell for certain people that aren't intentionally preaching it.
I have my own doubts, but this has helped me a bit as some ammo for my own inner dialogue
My question is not whether or not you can lose it, but if you even have it in the first place. Like "the form of godliness but denying the power thereof" scripture and what exactly that means. I believe that he is mighty to save yes, but I also believe that each person has their own unique standard to bear up under (cross to bear possibly?), with discipline and correction along the way as we are maturing (sanctification). So there is some type of inward change with consistent progression throughout our lives. If not, I would be seriously concerned about them.
I think each person's daily crucifixion of the flesh looks different and I'm not going to judge them unilaterally, just question them and their salvation. Privately. In my own mind. It does however raise questions in my prayer life that seemingly go unanswered.
Like knowing someone is living in sin and claims to follow Christ...I just wonder, is your pastor not teaching correctly or are you in willful rebellion and how is that even possible? Then consequently feeling guilty for not pointing it out.
A particular person came to mind, so I will think about how to broach the subject.
Some other questions I was pondering seemed to answer themselves so that's cool
So almost a pointless post except that where I am right now made a lot more sense typing it out so that's certainly something to praise about!
For me a lot of this gets confusing because one of my earliest memories was when I asked Jesus to come into my heart and to save me so I just don't have much else to compare it to.
Except that it has been a constant battle my whole life. Filled with tons of vain imagination that I didn't realize until much later were "unproductive" at the very best. At worst...harlotry. Certainly has been with lust...and certain other things that I won't mention at present, just that the enemy hasn't ever been far away for me and the personal nature of the attacks get confusing...
I'd certainly like to explain what my lifelong journey has been like but I can in no way do so. There are certain doubts that I have that I don't believe can be explained with fleshly limitations. Like we can't see in the perfect as we are imperfect. We are being perfected certainly...and I am constantly surprised at the process of sanctification. I rarely take a trip down memory lane intentionally but I can't even fathom half of the headspaces I've been in, certain sins are super far removed from me that it's almost like they didn't even happen. That wasn't me...but it was me? I am now a new me? Did that make me unsaved before? Am I even saved now? Is this what sanctification looks like? Months feel like years sometimes and I feel "old"...but young at the same time.
I think it's possible I go astray a lot...in my own thinking and he brings me back.
Or potentially I am deluded, was not saved to begin with, my whole life is a lie and I won't ever be...I rebuke thoughts like that.
At present I'm just resting in Phillipians 2:12 and that it's a process of understanding what it means personally. Like the work of the word...in my own personal life, in situations, at work. I read scripture a lot of places but mostly it's just for confirmation that I'm on the right track sometimes. Not in some other footrace on a different "way".
Other times it's like a banquet or a meager meal (if I'm lazy/tired).
I suppose I've expounded a good bit in other threads and will continue to do so. Thanks once again for putting it like that.
I often wonder if sometimes our disagreements would come out rather different in person when we actually met the person. I can feel an "echo" of them online but it's fainter and possibly that could be factored in some fashion.
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Take the advice of James if you wish to approach this person:
Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins. (James 5:19,20)
"do err from the truth" includes sinning as well as false doctrine. Perhaps this person has not really been regenerated and converted. Or has not been baptized or discipled. It is up to you to probe and present biblical answers directly from Scripture.
Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins. (James 5:19,20)
"do err from the truth" includes sinning as well as false doctrine. Perhaps this person has not really been regenerated and converted. Or has not been baptized or discipled. It is up to you to probe and present biblical answers directly from Scripture.
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I appreciate it.
I may end up passing the burden along to my sister who is married, because I always feel super awkward about certain things. I'm not sure where it is in scripture or if it is...but it's common practice in the church to bring up certain issues female on female and male on male. Feels somewhat inappropriate otherwise somehow. Kind of why I've left it alone. Your thoughts?
Tis pretty cool though because that option just sort of opened up when reading your post
At least I shall talk to her about it first, because I know it was a burden for her in the past and she wrestled with it.
I may end up passing the burden along to my sister who is married, because I always feel super awkward about certain things. I'm not sure where it is in scripture or if it is...but it's common practice in the church to bring up certain issues female on female and male on male. Feels somewhat inappropriate otherwise somehow. Kind of why I've left it alone. Your thoughts?
Tis pretty cool though because that option just sort of opened up when reading your post
At least I shall talk to her about it first, because I know it was a burden for her in the past and she wrestled with it.
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You are not just suffering from Gross conceptual Error you are also doctrinally delusional.
Jesus is the word of God therefore believing and obeying the word of God will lead one to salvation.
You cannot preach the gospel of salvation without opening up one's Bible and going through the scriptures.
You cannot deny Mark 16:15-20 and Acts 2:38 for example and think you have Jesus separate from scripture.
It is scripture (the word of God) that convicts a person to repent and then to believe in who Jesus is …
Jesus is the word of God therefore believing and obeying the word of God will lead one to salvation.
You cannot preach the gospel of salvation without opening up one's Bible and going through the scriptures.
You cannot deny Mark 16:15-20 and Acts 2:38 for example and think you have Jesus separate from scripture.
It is scripture (the word of God) that convicts a person to repent and then to believe in who Jesus is …
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4 Behold, all souls are mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is mine: the soul who sins shall die.
5 “If a man is righteous and does what is just and right—
9 walks in my statutes, and keeps my rules by acting faithfully —he is righteous; he shall surely live, declares the Lord GOD.
20 The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son.
The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.
21 But if a wicked person turns away from all his sins that he has committed and keeps all my statutes and does what is just and right,
he shall surely live; he shall not die.
22 None of the transgressions that he has committed shall be remembered against him; for the righteousness that he has done
he shall live.
23 Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked, declares the Lord GOD, and not rather that he should turn from his way and live?
Ezekiel 18: (ESV)
5 “If a man is righteous and does what is just and right—
9 walks in my statutes, and keeps my rules by acting faithfully —he is righteous; he shall surely live, declares the Lord GOD.
20 The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son.
The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.
21 But if a wicked person turns away from all his sins that he has committed and keeps all my statutes and does what is just and right,
he shall surely live; he shall not die.
22 None of the transgressions that he has committed shall be remembered against him; for the righteousness that he has done
he shall live.
23 Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked, declares the Lord GOD, and not rather that he should turn from his way and live?
Ezekiel 18: (ESV)
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A good shepherd indeed may well seek to find his strayed and lost sheep … but not all sheep want to return to the flock.
OSAS confuses the scriptures about God's faithfulness and protection with the responsibilities of believers or disciples to
uphold our part - faithfulness > remaining steadfast and true.
Many do not do this and are lost back into the world and back to Satan.
Read the parable of the sower and the seed - only one in four seeds cast on the soil grows to produce grain.
Not all run to finish the race and to claim the prize.
OSAS confuses the scriptures about God's faithfulness and protection with the responsibilities of believers or disciples to
uphold our part - faithfulness > remaining steadfast and true.
Many do not do this and are lost back into the world and back to Satan.
Read the parable of the sower and the seed - only one in four seeds cast on the soil grows to produce grain.
Not all run to finish the race and to claim the prize.
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@Hemustincrease
4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you,
unless you abide in me.
5 I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you
can do nothing.
6 If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire,
and burned.
7 If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.
John 15: (ESV)
Here is clear warning from Jesus as to consequences for falling away (departing from the faith) > death
so much for OSAS nonsense.
4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you,
unless you abide in me.
5 I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you
can do nothing.
6 If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire,
and burned.
7 If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.
John 15: (ESV)
Here is clear warning from Jesus as to consequences for falling away (departing from the faith) > death
so much for OSAS nonsense.
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