The Irreducible Complex System (Psa. 77:13)
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You did not follow back the conversation:
Here it is, regarding what I stated on Romans 3:25 originally to which PennEd responded:
PennEd said:
https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...x-system-psa-77-13.186635/page-5#post-3996486
You have "been led astray by someone young man. Be open to correction. You have just misapplied Roman 3:25.
The sins of the past Paul is referring to are sins that were committed by mankind in the past, BEFORE JESUS' DEATH AND RESURRECTION. NOT the future sins of the born again. ..."
I then stated:
https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...x-system-psa-77-13.186635/page-5#post-3996491
"If only so, then none of your sins are forgiven. You lived and sinned after Calvary, not before it."
Then 7seasrekeyed said:
https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...x-system-psa-77-13.186635/page-5#post-3996497
"hush
you sound desperate now "
I then said:
https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...x-system-psa-77-13.186635/page-5#post-3996500
"The "sanctified" logic is inescapable. "
PennEd then said:
https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...x-system-psa-77-13.186635/page-5#post-3996502
The born again Child of God's past, present, and future sins have been paid in full by Jesus Christ.
Why are you so blinded that you cannot see that Paul was referring to the sins of people BEFORE JESUS' DEATH AND RESURRECTION?
Then you said:
https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...x-system-psa-77-13.186635/page-5#post-3996510
"Depends
There is positional sanctification, also called being “made perfect) which God says is forever
“Hebrews 10: 14a for by one offering he has perfected forever”
Then There is conditional sanctification (We are a work in progress)
Hebrews 10: 14b (those who being sanctified) "
Then I said:
https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...x-system-psa-77-13.186635/page-7#post-3996971
"That's not what he argued about the text. Read what he said again, slowly."
It has nothing to do with what you stated just then.
Here it is, regarding what I stated on Romans 3:25 originally to which PennEd responded:
PennEd said:
https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...x-system-psa-77-13.186635/page-5#post-3996486
You have "been led astray by someone young man. Be open to correction. You have just misapplied Roman 3:25.
The sins of the past Paul is referring to are sins that were committed by mankind in the past, BEFORE JESUS' DEATH AND RESURRECTION. NOT the future sins of the born again. ..."
I then stated:
https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...x-system-psa-77-13.186635/page-5#post-3996491
"If only so, then none of your sins are forgiven. You lived and sinned after Calvary, not before it."
Then 7seasrekeyed said:
https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...x-system-psa-77-13.186635/page-5#post-3996497
"hush
you sound desperate now "
I then said:
https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...x-system-psa-77-13.186635/page-5#post-3996500
"The "sanctified" logic is inescapable. "
PennEd then said:
https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...x-system-psa-77-13.186635/page-5#post-3996502
The born again Child of God's past, present, and future sins have been paid in full by Jesus Christ.
Why are you so blinded that you cannot see that Paul was referring to the sins of people BEFORE JESUS' DEATH AND RESURRECTION?
Then you said:
https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...x-system-psa-77-13.186635/page-5#post-3996510
"Depends
There is positional sanctification, also called being “made perfect) which God says is forever
“Hebrews 10: 14a for by one offering he has perfected forever”
Then There is conditional sanctification (We are a work in progress)
Hebrews 10: 14b (those who being sanctified) "
Then I said:
https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...x-system-psa-77-13.186635/page-7#post-3996971
"That's not what he argued about the text. Read what he said again, slowly."
It has nothing to do with what you stated just then.
Lev 4, speaks about the daily sacrifice for sin.
Lev 4:6 And the priest shall dip his finger in the blood, and sprinkle of the blood seven times before the LORD, before the vail of the sanctuary.
This sin was transferred from the offender to the 'blood', which was then in type, taken before the Ark and 2nd vail.
The sinner was covered by this act. He was protected from wrath. Yet, the offender was still on probation, until such time as the sanctuary itself was cleansed, in the Day of Atonement, at which time, if the offender was true in their repentance, their sin was removed entirely altogether. If not, they were cut off from the camp of Israel forever, their debt reinstated, Lev 16 & 23.
Lev 4:6 And the priest shall dip his finger in the blood, and sprinkle of the blood seven times before the LORD, before the vail of the sanctuary.
This sin was transferred from the offender to the 'blood', which was then in type, taken before the Ark and 2nd vail.
The sinner was covered by this act. He was protected from wrath. Yet, the offender was still on probation, until such time as the sanctuary itself was cleansed, in the Day of Atonement, at which time, if the offender was true in their repentance, their sin was removed entirely altogether. If not, they were cut off from the camp of Israel forever, their debt reinstated, Lev 16 & 23.
I actually use both words, since the atonement of Calvary brings us into at-one-ment with God. No longer separated by sin, being forgiven in Christ Jesus, and for being in Christ Jesus as adopted, we have communion again with God, and even soon, face to face.
Eph 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
Eph 2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
Eph 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
1Jn_4:15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.
I do not subscribe to the heresies of MBE and so called Christian Science.
Eph 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
Eph 2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
Eph 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
1Jn_4:15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.
I do not subscribe to the heresies of MBE and so called Christian Science.
Of course Paul stated the truth, by inspiration of the Holy Ghost, since the word of God is given by such (2 Tim. 3:16-17). That is not in question. What the issue is, what Peter spake of about Paul's deep statements:
2Pe_3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
Therein is the issue, not that Paul lied. People seem to assume something about my position, rather than take heed to what I actually said.
2Pe_3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
Therein is the issue, not that Paul lied. People seem to assume something about my position, rather than take heed to what I actually said.
Let's go back to square one. Begin from there, see who agrees with scripture, and continue at each step. The OP is based in the Sanctuary and the irreducible complexity thereof. Take one part away, and the whole becomes moot.
In the OT (Gen. to Mal.) God (even Jesus) showed to Moses the "pattern" of the Heavenly realities, so that Moses could make an earthly miniature copy, a type:
Exo_25:9 According to all that I shew thee, after the pattern of the tabernacle, and the pattern of all the instruments thereof, even so shall ye make it.
Exo_25:40 And look that thou make them after their pattern, which was shewed thee in the mount.
Num_8:4 And this work of the candlestick was of beaten gold, unto the shaft thereof, unto the flowers thereof, was beaten work: according unto the pattern which the LORD had shewed Moses, so he made the candlestick.
Heb_8:5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.
There is an Heavenly original Sanctuary of which Moses made a copy of for earthly use, as shown to him by God
Who does not agree with this? Who agrees with this?
In the OT (Gen. to Mal.) God (even Jesus) showed to Moses the "pattern" of the Heavenly realities, so that Moses could make an earthly miniature copy, a type:
Exo_25:9 According to all that I shew thee, after the pattern of the tabernacle, and the pattern of all the instruments thereof, even so shall ye make it.
Exo_25:40 And look that thou make them after their pattern, which was shewed thee in the mount.
Num_8:4 And this work of the candlestick was of beaten gold, unto the shaft thereof, unto the flowers thereof, was beaten work: according unto the pattern which the LORD had shewed Moses, so he made the candlestick.
Heb_8:5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.
There is an Heavenly original Sanctuary of which Moses made a copy of for earthly use, as shown to him by God
Who does not agree with this? Who agrees with this?
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I can explain things to you, unfortunately I can't comprehend them for you. Your question is completely inane. It has no bearing on anything.
God overlooked the sin of men because of their ignorance,
Acts 17:30-31 New King James Version (NKJV)
30 Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent, 31 because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead.”
but now that the Messiah has come and paid the sin debt through the Cross, we are responsible to respond to His Gospel.
This is how they were judged before the Cross:
Romans 2:12-16 New King James Version (NKJV)
12 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law 13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified; 14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) 16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.
Now read this passage again with that understanding:
Romans 3:21-26 New King James Version (NKJV)
God’s Righteousness Through Faith
21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all [a]and on all who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified [b]freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a [c]propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
God overlooked the sin of men because of their ignorance,
Acts 17:30-31 New King James Version (NKJV)
30 Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent, 31 because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead.”
but now that the Messiah has come and paid the sin debt through the Cross, we are responsible to respond to His Gospel.
This is how they were judged before the Cross:
Romans 2:12-16 New King James Version (NKJV)
12 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law 13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified; 14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) 16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.
Now read this passage again with that understanding:
Romans 3:21-26 New King James Version (NKJV)
God’s Righteousness Through Faith
21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all [a]and on all who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified [b]freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a [c]propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
Thank you, but, "No." I don't have time for everyone else's apriori or 'lesson', so we are going to stick to the OP.
We are starting over:
https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...x-system-psa-77-13.186635/page-9#post-3997146
"Let's go back to square one. Begin from there, see who agrees with scripture, and continue at each step. The OP is based in the Sanctuary and the irreducible complexity thereof. Take one part away, and the whole becomes moot.
In the OT (Gen. to Mal.) God (even Jesus) showed to Moses the "pattern" of the Heavenly realities, so that Moses could make an earthly miniature copy, a type:
Exo_25:9 According to all that I shew thee, after the pattern of the tabernacle, and the pattern of all the instruments thereof, even so shall ye make it.
Exo_25:40 And look that thou make them after their pattern, which was shewed thee in the mount.
Num_8:4 And this work of the candlestick was of beaten gold, unto the shaft thereof, unto the flowers thereof, was beaten work: according unto the pattern which the LORD had shewed Moses, so he made the candlestick.
Heb_8:5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.
There is an Heavenly original Sanctuary of which Moses made a copy of for earthly use, as shown to him by God
Who does not agree with this? Who agrees with this?"
We are starting over:
https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...x-system-psa-77-13.186635/page-9#post-3997146
"Let's go back to square one. Begin from there, see who agrees with scripture, and continue at each step. The OP is based in the Sanctuary and the irreducible complexity thereof. Take one part away, and the whole becomes moot.
In the OT (Gen. to Mal.) God (even Jesus) showed to Moses the "pattern" of the Heavenly realities, so that Moses could make an earthly miniature copy, a type:
Exo_25:9 According to all that I shew thee, after the pattern of the tabernacle, and the pattern of all the instruments thereof, even so shall ye make it.
Exo_25:40 And look that thou make them after their pattern, which was shewed thee in the mount.
Num_8:4 And this work of the candlestick was of beaten gold, unto the shaft thereof, unto the flowers thereof, was beaten work: according unto the pattern which the LORD had shewed Moses, so he made the candlestick.
Heb_8:5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.
There is an Heavenly original Sanctuary of which Moses made a copy of for earthly use, as shown to him by God
Who does not agree with this? Who agrees with this?"
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Moses used tents for the temple as instructed by God.
There are no sacrifices offered in heaven, or sin, or need for reconciliation.
Jesus died once for all. He is not continually being offered for sin.
So your proposition does not work at all.
The temple only works on earth, before the time of Jesus, who is its fulfilment.
The shadow of holiness, blood, forgiveness, the holy of hollies has value, but again this is not
reflected in heaven. Seems to me a dead end argument.
There are no sacrifices offered in heaven, or sin, or need for reconciliation.
Jesus died once for all. He is not continually being offered for sin.
So your proposition does not work at all.
The temple only works on earth, before the time of Jesus, who is its fulfilment.
The shadow of holiness, blood, forgiveness, the holy of hollies has value, but again this is not
reflected in heaven. Seems to me a dead end argument.
We aren't talking about 'sacrifices" yet. Only the Sanctuary. Do you agree that there is a real Heavenly Sanctuary according to the texts already cited (Exo. 25:9,40; Num. 8:4; Heb. 8:5) that Moses was commanded by God to make similarly after the "pattern", yes/no please?
Moses saw the "pattern" of the true Heavenly things themselves, having been shown them by God - even Jesus, and was to make the earthly things after their "fashion":
Acts 7:44 KJB - Our fathers had the tabernacle of witness in the wilderness, as he had appointed, speaking unto Moses, that he should make it according to the fashion that he had seen.
Perhaps you may need further verses which demonstrate this Sanctuary in Heave beyond those already cited (Exo. 25:9,40; Num. 8:4; Heb. 8:5).
Moses saw the "pattern" of the true Heavenly things themselves, having been shown them by God - even Jesus, and was to make the earthly things after their "fashion":
Acts 7:44 KJB - Our fathers had the tabernacle of witness in the wilderness, as he had appointed, speaking unto Moses, that he should make it according to the fashion that he had seen.
Perhaps you may need further verses which demonstrate this Sanctuary in Heave beyond those already cited (Exo. 25:9,40; Num. 8:4; Heb. 8:5).
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Leaving you with more verses about the original Heavenly Sanctuary that Moses saw:
David and Solomon, were given this "pattern" by the Holy Ghost/Spirit:
1 Chronicles 28:10 KJB - Take heed now; for the LORD hath chosen thee to build an house for the sanctuary: be strong, and do it.
1 Chronicles 28:11 KJB - Then David gave to Solomon his son the pattern of the porch, and of the houses thereof, and of the treasuries thereof, and of the upper chambers thereof, and of the inner parlours thereof, and of the place of the mercy seat,
1 Chronicles 28:12 KJB - And the pattern of all that he had by the spirit, of the courts of the house of the LORD, and of all the chambers round about, of the treasuries of the house of God, and of the treasuries of the dedicated things:
1 Chronicles 28:19 KJB - All this, said David, the LORD made me understand in writing by his hand upon me, even all the works of this pattern.
Asaph the Psalmist knew of the "pattern":
Psalms 77:13 KJB - Thy way, O God, is in the sanctuary: who is so great a God as our God?
Ezekiel was shown this "pattern":
Ezekiel 43:10 KJB - Thou son of man, shew the house to the house of Israel, that they may be ashamed of their iniquities: and let them measure the pattern.
Ezekiel 43:11 KJB - And if they be ashamed of all that they have done, shew them the form of the house, and the fashion thereof, and the goings out thereof, and the comings in thereof, and all the forms thereof, and all the ordinances thereof, and all the forms thereof, and all the laws thereof: and write it in their sight, that they may keep the whole form thereof, and all the ordinances thereof, and do them.
Ezekiel 43:12 KJB - This is the law of the house; Upon the top of the mountain the whole limit thereof round about shall be most holy. Behold, this is the law of the house.
Paul, the writer of many epistles and of Hebrews, knew of this "pattern" and what was shown to Moses, and from where this "pattern" came from. It came from the True Tabernacle in Heaven!:
Ephesians 1:20 KJB - Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
Hebrews 8:1 KJB - Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;
Hebrews 8:2 KJB - A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.
Hebrews 8:3 KJB - For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer.
Hebrews 8:4 KJB - For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law:
Hebrews 8:5 KJB - Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.
Hebrews 8:6 KJB - But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
Hebrews 9:23 KJB - It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
Hebrews 13:10 KJB - We have an altar, whereof they have no right to eat which serve the tabernacle.
Daniel the Prophet knew of the "pattern", and even of the original!:
Daniel 8:11 KJB - Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.
Daniel 8:12 KJB - And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.
Daniel 8:13 KJB - Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?
Daniel 8:14 KJB - And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.
Daniel 8:26 KJB - And the vision of the evening and the morning which was told is true: wherefore shut thou up the vision; for it shall be for many days.
Daniel 9:24 KJB - Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
Daniel 11:31 KJB - And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.
John the Apostle knew of this "pattern", and even saw the original!:
Revelation 1:12 KJB - And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;
Revelation 1:13 KJB - And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
Revelation 3:7 KJB - And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;
Revelation 3:8 KJB - I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.
Revelation 4:1 KJB - After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
Revelation 4:5 KJB - And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.
Revelation 9:13 KJB - And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God,
Revelation 11:1 KJB - And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
Revelation 11:19 KJB - And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.
Revelation 15:5 KJB - And after that I looked, and, behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened:
David and Solomon, were given this "pattern" by the Holy Ghost/Spirit:
1 Chronicles 28:10 KJB - Take heed now; for the LORD hath chosen thee to build an house for the sanctuary: be strong, and do it.
1 Chronicles 28:11 KJB - Then David gave to Solomon his son the pattern of the porch, and of the houses thereof, and of the treasuries thereof, and of the upper chambers thereof, and of the inner parlours thereof, and of the place of the mercy seat,
1 Chronicles 28:12 KJB - And the pattern of all that he had by the spirit, of the courts of the house of the LORD, and of all the chambers round about, of the treasuries of the house of God, and of the treasuries of the dedicated things:
1 Chronicles 28:19 KJB - All this, said David, the LORD made me understand in writing by his hand upon me, even all the works of this pattern.
Asaph the Psalmist knew of the "pattern":
Psalms 77:13 KJB - Thy way, O God, is in the sanctuary: who is so great a God as our God?
Ezekiel was shown this "pattern":
Ezekiel 43:10 KJB - Thou son of man, shew the house to the house of Israel, that they may be ashamed of their iniquities: and let them measure the pattern.
Ezekiel 43:11 KJB - And if they be ashamed of all that they have done, shew them the form of the house, and the fashion thereof, and the goings out thereof, and the comings in thereof, and all the forms thereof, and all the ordinances thereof, and all the forms thereof, and all the laws thereof: and write it in their sight, that they may keep the whole form thereof, and all the ordinances thereof, and do them.
Ezekiel 43:12 KJB - This is the law of the house; Upon the top of the mountain the whole limit thereof round about shall be most holy. Behold, this is the law of the house.
Paul, the writer of many epistles and of Hebrews, knew of this "pattern" and what was shown to Moses, and from where this "pattern" came from. It came from the True Tabernacle in Heaven!:
Ephesians 1:20 KJB - Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
Hebrews 8:1 KJB - Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;
Hebrews 8:2 KJB - A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.
Hebrews 8:3 KJB - For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer.
Hebrews 8:4 KJB - For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law:
Hebrews 8:5 KJB - Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.
Hebrews 8:6 KJB - But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
Hebrews 9:23 KJB - It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
Hebrews 13:10 KJB - We have an altar, whereof they have no right to eat which serve the tabernacle.
Daniel the Prophet knew of the "pattern", and even of the original!:
Daniel 8:11 KJB - Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.
Daniel 8:12 KJB - And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.
Daniel 8:13 KJB - Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?
Daniel 8:14 KJB - And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.
Daniel 8:26 KJB - And the vision of the evening and the morning which was told is true: wherefore shut thou up the vision; for it shall be for many days.
Daniel 9:24 KJB - Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
Daniel 11:31 KJB - And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.
John the Apostle knew of this "pattern", and even saw the original!:
Revelation 1:12 KJB - And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;
Revelation 1:13 KJB - And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
Revelation 3:7 KJB - And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;
Revelation 3:8 KJB - I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.
Revelation 4:1 KJB - After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
Revelation 4:5 KJB - And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.
Revelation 9:13 KJB - And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God,
Revelation 11:1 KJB - And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
Revelation 11:19 KJB - And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.
Revelation 15:5 KJB - And after that I looked, and, behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened:
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More verses about the original Heavenly Sanctuary of God:
Isaiah looked into Heaven, and saw the Heavenly Temple/House of God! the Doors of the Posts, the Altar and Tongs thereof:
Isaiah 6:1 KJB - In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple.
Isaiah 6:2 KJB - Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly.
Isaiah 6:3 KJB - And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.
Isaiah 6:4 KJB - And the posts of the door moved at the voice of him that cried, and the house was filled with smoke.
Isaiah 6:5 KJB - Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts.
Isaiah 6:6 KJB - Then flew one of the seraphims unto me, having a live coal in his hand, which he had taken with the tongs from off the altar:
Isaiah 6:7 KJB - And he laid it upon my mouth, and said, Lo, this hath touched thy lips; and thine iniquity is taken away, and thy sin purged.
Isaiah 6:8 KJB - Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me.
Isaiah 6:9 KJB - And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.
Isaiah 6:10 KJB - Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.
Isaiah 6:11 KJB - Then said I, Lord, how long? And he answered, Until the cities be wasted without inhabitant, and the houses without man, and the land be utterly desolate,
Isaiah 6:12 KJB - And the LORD have removed men far away, and there be a great forsaking in the midst of the land.
Isaiah 6:13 KJB - But yet in it shall be a tenth, and it shall return, and shall be eaten: as a teil tree, and as an oak, whose substance is in them, when they cast their leaves: so the holy seed shall be the substance thereof.
The "ark of his testament", or another way of saying, the "ark of his covenant".
In Daniel 8:11 again we see it:
“... and the place of his [the “Prince of princes” [Daniel 8:25]; Jesus Christ, the High priest of the Heavenly sanctuary] sanctuary ...”
Let us take notice, that so far, we have 3 specific items mentioned:
[1] the Person, the who - “prince of the host” - Jesus in Heaven
From the timeline of events, we know that the “prince of the host”, being Jesus is in Heaven at that point, in the Holy Place.
[2] the thing, the what and when - “the daily” - faith in the Heavenly ministration, being “taken away”
From the context, and being directly connected to 'the Person' and to 'the place', 'the thing' is also dealing with an Heavenly subject, not an earthly one. The people of God are indeed physically on earth, and are an Temple unto God, yet they are an Heavenly peoples, citizens of that far country, being but strangers, pilgrims and aliens [Satan has reversed this] here, but whose names are written in Heaven.
[3] the place, the where - “the place of his sanctuary” - the Heavenly Temple
From the context in connection with the word “sanctuary” and from the word “place” [H4349], “מָכוֹן”, “mâkôn”, we see it refers to an Heavenly item, specifically linked with God's Throne in the Heavenly Sanctuary, and in other instances refers to God's dwelling place [Exodus 15:17; 1 Kings 8:13; 2 Chronicles 6:2; Ezra 2:68 KJB], even as a place of His footstool before His Throne [Psalms 104:5, combined with Isaiah 66:1; Matthew 5:35; Acts 7:49 KJB]:
1 Kings 8:39 KJB - Then hear thou in heaven thy dwelling place, and forgive, and do, and give to every man according to his ways, whose heart thou knowest; (for thou, even thou only, knowest the hearts of all the children of men
1 Kings 8:43 KJB - Hear thou in heaven thy dwelling place, and do according to all that the stranger calleth to thee for: that all people of the earth may know thy name, to fear thee, as do thy people Israel; and that they may know that this house, which I have builded, is called by thy name.
1 Kings 8:49 KJB - Then hear thou their prayer and their supplication in heaven thy dwelling place, and maintain their cause,
2 Chronicles 6:30 KJB - Then hear thou from heaven thy dwelling place, and forgive, and render unto every man according unto all his ways, whose heart thou knowest; (for thou only knowest the hearts of the children of men
2 Chronicles 6:33 KJB - Then hear thou from the heavens, even from thy dwelling place, and do according to all that the stranger calleth to thee for; that all people of the earth may know thy name, and fear thee, as doth thy people Israel, and may know that this house which I have built is called by thy name.
2 Chronicles 6:39 KJB - Then hear thou from the heavens, even from thy dwelling place, their prayer and their supplications, and maintain their cause, and forgive thy people which have sinned against thee.
Psalms 33:14 KJB - From the place of his habitation he looketh upon all the inhabitants of the earth.
Psalms 89:14 KJB - Justice and judgment are the habitation of thy throne: mercy and truth shall go before thy face.
Psalms 97:2 KJB - Clouds and darkness are round about him: righteousness and judgment are the habitation of his throne.
Isaiah 18:4 KJB - For so the LORD said unto me, I will take my rest, and I will consider in my dwelling place like a clear heat upon herbs, and like a cloud of dew in the heat of harvest.
Isaiah looked into Heaven, and saw the Heavenly Temple/House of God! the Doors of the Posts, the Altar and Tongs thereof:
Isaiah 6:1 KJB - In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple.
Isaiah 6:2 KJB - Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly.
Isaiah 6:3 KJB - And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.
Isaiah 6:4 KJB - And the posts of the door moved at the voice of him that cried, and the house was filled with smoke.
Isaiah 6:5 KJB - Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts.
Isaiah 6:6 KJB - Then flew one of the seraphims unto me, having a live coal in his hand, which he had taken with the tongs from off the altar:
Isaiah 6:7 KJB - And he laid it upon my mouth, and said, Lo, this hath touched thy lips; and thine iniquity is taken away, and thy sin purged.
Isaiah 6:8 KJB - Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me.
Isaiah 6:9 KJB - And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.
Isaiah 6:10 KJB - Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.
Isaiah 6:11 KJB - Then said I, Lord, how long? And he answered, Until the cities be wasted without inhabitant, and the houses without man, and the land be utterly desolate,
Isaiah 6:12 KJB - And the LORD have removed men far away, and there be a great forsaking in the midst of the land.
Isaiah 6:13 KJB - But yet in it shall be a tenth, and it shall return, and shall be eaten: as a teil tree, and as an oak, whose substance is in them, when they cast their leaves: so the holy seed shall be the substance thereof.
Revelation 11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.
Revelation 15:5 And after that I looked, and, behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened:
The "ark of his testament", or another way of saying, the "ark of his covenant".
In Daniel 8:11 again we see it:
“... and the place of his [the “Prince of princes” [Daniel 8:25]; Jesus Christ, the High priest of the Heavenly sanctuary] sanctuary ...”
Let us take notice, that so far, we have 3 specific items mentioned:
[1] the Person, the who - “prince of the host” - Jesus in Heaven
From the timeline of events, we know that the “prince of the host”, being Jesus is in Heaven at that point, in the Holy Place.
[2] the thing, the what and when - “the daily” - faith in the Heavenly ministration, being “taken away”
From the context, and being directly connected to 'the Person' and to 'the place', 'the thing' is also dealing with an Heavenly subject, not an earthly one. The people of God are indeed physically on earth, and are an Temple unto God, yet they are an Heavenly peoples, citizens of that far country, being but strangers, pilgrims and aliens [Satan has reversed this] here, but whose names are written in Heaven.
[3] the place, the where - “the place of his sanctuary” - the Heavenly Temple
From the context in connection with the word “sanctuary” and from the word “place” [H4349], “מָכוֹן”, “mâkôn”, we see it refers to an Heavenly item, specifically linked with God's Throne in the Heavenly Sanctuary, and in other instances refers to God's dwelling place [Exodus 15:17; 1 Kings 8:13; 2 Chronicles 6:2; Ezra 2:68 KJB], even as a place of His footstool before His Throne [Psalms 104:5, combined with Isaiah 66:1; Matthew 5:35; Acts 7:49 KJB]:
1 Kings 8:39 KJB - Then hear thou in heaven thy dwelling place, and forgive, and do, and give to every man according to his ways, whose heart thou knowest; (for thou, even thou only, knowest the hearts of all the children of men
1 Kings 8:43 KJB - Hear thou in heaven thy dwelling place, and do according to all that the stranger calleth to thee for: that all people of the earth may know thy name, to fear thee, as do thy people Israel; and that they may know that this house, which I have builded, is called by thy name.
1 Kings 8:49 KJB - Then hear thou their prayer and their supplication in heaven thy dwelling place, and maintain their cause,
2 Chronicles 6:30 KJB - Then hear thou from heaven thy dwelling place, and forgive, and render unto every man according unto all his ways, whose heart thou knowest; (for thou only knowest the hearts of the children of men
2 Chronicles 6:33 KJB - Then hear thou from the heavens, even from thy dwelling place, and do according to all that the stranger calleth to thee for; that all people of the earth may know thy name, and fear thee, as doth thy people Israel, and may know that this house which I have built is called by thy name.
2 Chronicles 6:39 KJB - Then hear thou from the heavens, even from thy dwelling place, their prayer and their supplications, and maintain their cause, and forgive thy people which have sinned against thee.
Psalms 33:14 KJB - From the place of his habitation he looketh upon all the inhabitants of the earth.
Psalms 89:14 KJB - Justice and judgment are the habitation of thy throne: mercy and truth shall go before thy face.
Psalms 97:2 KJB - Clouds and darkness are round about him: righteousness and judgment are the habitation of his throne.
Isaiah 18:4 KJB - For so the LORD said unto me, I will take my rest, and I will consider in my dwelling place like a clear heat upon herbs, and like a cloud of dew in the heat of harvest.
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Can you please stick to the discussion. Jesus shed his blood at birth (umbilical), at circumcision (8th day), at Gethsemane (sweat), at the trials (crown and whips), and most especially at Calvary (crucified).
My sins were indeed paid for at Calvary. Not in question, not in doubt, not in contestation, not in argument. Please refrain from saying I said or intimate otherwise. I have said it several times now. Please go back to the question and topic asked - Heavenly Sanctuary and the irreducible complexity of it.
My sins were indeed paid for at Calvary. Not in question, not in doubt, not in contestation, not in argument. Please refrain from saying I said or intimate otherwise. I have said it several times now. Please go back to the question and topic asked - Heavenly Sanctuary and the irreducible complexity of it.
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