Did Jesus ever tell us that we no longer need to keep the law of Moses?

[Grandpa]

OUR LORD AND SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST ABOLISHED THAT MINISTRY. The law of Moses, the law of condemnation and death had to be removed for the ministry of Jesus. THE OLD COVENANT EXPIRED, JESUS BROUGHT US THE NEW.

WE ARE IN THE DISPENSATION OF GRACE. IT IS IMPOSSIBLE, CAN'T BE DONE, EVEN IF YOU TRIED AND SCREAMED THAT IS WHAT YOU WERE TRYING TO DO IT STILL COULDN'T BE DONE. IT DOES NOT EXIST EXCEPT IN YOUR MIND.

Here's one of the legalists favorite scriptures;

Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

So, heaven and earth are still here.

So what does that say about the ministry of death and condemnation?

 

[DeighAnn]

I kinda disagree in a couple ways.

Yes, the ministration/ministry written/engraved in stones was "glorious" (but is not the "much MORE glorious" referred to in the passage).

And it wasn't "all we had" (as humans, before Christ)... it seems Scripture says, "the Law was ADDED" (Gal3:19) and "the Law ENTERED" (Romans 5:20), and that "the Law, WHICH WAS four hundred and thirty years AFTER" another point in time (Gal3:17)... so not always in existence (when humans were). And it wasn't even given to "the Gentiles" ('who HAVE NOT the Law' Rom2:14).


And as for "now" ['in this present age [singular]'] (regarding believers/saints/those IN Christ [i.e. "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY"]), we now have "the law of the Spirit OF LIFE" (in Christ Jesus).



[and, the fruit OF the Spirit... against such there is no law]

The Law of Life is forgiveness through the Blood of Christ

 

[Grandpa]

For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

NOT THE ENDING OF THE LAW.

We are made righteous through Christ. Christ making us righteous, doesn't destroy the law.

I thought you just said that the ministry of condemnation and death is over? Abolished?

Now you are saying its still there.

So which is it?

 

[SimpleGardner]

Here's one of the legalists favorite scriptures;

Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

So, heaven and earth are still here.

So what does that say about the ministry of death and condemnation?

Since our Justification it no longer condemns! Now the Law maintains civil order and lights the path of we who are saved by grace throughout our Sanctification journey! It is a lovely thing to those who are "in Christ" isn't it!

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Okay, Some of what you mention is symantics the other was my bad. "We" present tense Grafted into the vine/tree are israel. But the rest stands.

It sounds as though you and I disagree on the identification of "The Olive Tree" in Romans 11. I believe it represents "God's governmental ways upon the earth" (rather than representing "Christ" or "salvation" or "eternal life" or some such...).



Here's something I posted in the past, as explanation/elaboration (two previous posts):


[quoting those two posts]

Here's what I've posted in the past, here, just to clarify […] :
[…]

I'm looking for a different quote by George V Wigram... but (in the meantime) in its place, I'll just post this brief portion also by him (note the phrase "God's governmental ways on earth," which is what I believe Roman's 11's "olive tree" represents):

[quoting GV Wigram]

"Gen. 27:29 [Isaac blessing Jacob]. Let peoples (gamnzim, pl.), serve thee and [manners or sorts of ] nations (l'ummim, pl.) bow down to thee: be lord [a mighty man] over thy brethren.

"Observe, this would not run the source of the division of people back to Shem, Ham and Japhet, so as to make the word to be equivalent to what we call the races of people, in connection with the Noahic earth, who constitute the whole human family. The subdivision here alluded to took place in the family of Isaac, type of the heir of promise, not earlier; and the heads of this subdivision are brought before us in Rom. 9 All God's ways and subdivisions are to be noted."

[also]

"f Israel is the goh'y of experience, promise, blessing on the earth; the center of all God's governmental ways on earth; but in saying that, I look at them from outside and as one whole. When they are owned as gammi, my people, their detailed state and associations within is the aspect in which they are considered."

--George V Wigram

http://bibletruthpublishers.com/heb...t-testimony-psalms-article/g-v-wigram/la61041

____________

[quoting that other article by GV Wigram]

"[re: Romans 11] In Jesus Christ, if the question be about Christian position, eternal life, or the Church considered in her essential relationship to Christ, there was neither Jew nor Gentile; the thoughts found in this chapter [Romans 11] can THERE have no place. If the question be about the cutting off of an individual for sinful conduct, little matters it whether he be Jew or Gentile; that has nothing to do with it, and on the other hand, there would be no question about grafting in again of the Jews more than of any others, and neither Jews nor others could be grafted in, if God had cut them off in such a manner. And if it were a question about a warning from the Apostle to Christians at Rome, and so to others elsewhere, as being brethren, it would be almost nonsense to say, " And thou, O Gentile, take heed!" Why, thou, O Gentile? Had not Christians, Jews by birth, as much need to take heed? Or could the Spirit of God, in such a warning, have made the distinction, and thus denied the principle of, the Church of God in which there is neither Jew nor Gentile? If the question is about a divine administration upon earth, then God can well make the distinction and develop his ways towards the one and the other; and it is plain that from the commencement of the ninth chapter the Apostle is occupied with and pointedly contrasts the Jews and the Gentiles, presenting us with the administration of the divine ways upon the earth. First declaring his attachment to Israel, he points out an election in the election for the earth, and further, that if God according to his sovereignty had chosen Israel (and such was Israel's boast), He had not renounced His sovereignty; and consequently, He could call the Gentiles if he would. Then he recalls to mind that the prophets had shown that a little remnant only, of Israel, at such an epoch, would be saved, and that a stone of stumbling would be laid in Zion."

-- Thoughts on Romans 11 and the Responsibility of the Church, Present Testimony: Volume 4 George V. Wigram

http://bibletruthpublishers.com/tho...the-church/present-testimony-volume-4/la85282

[end quoting; bold and underline mine]


[end quoting those two posts]

_____

And I disagree that "we are Israel" (or "the new Israel"... or related terminology). ALL 73 usages of the word "Israel" in the NT, mean "Israel" ( http://www.middletownbiblechurch.org/reformed/israelaf.htm ).

 

[SimpleGardner]

I thought you just said that the ministry of condemnation and death is over? Abolished?

Now you are saying its still there.

So which is it?

Over for those saved by grace and walking "In Christ!" Rejoice! There is therefor now no condemnation for those.........WHO?

 

[Grandpa]

Yes, Never leave you or forsake you! Beautiful words!

But I see you did not answer regarding Revelations, and that is okay, but, if you do agree with Revelations then;


Rev_12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Rev_14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
Rev_22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

These are impossible to reconcile with your position. The only way to maintain your position would be to agree with many who simply refute the book of Revelations.

I understand the refutation in light of the several contradictions to how many have interpreted Paul's words.

It is also harder to reconcile that a book (Revelations) that is written by John from the mouth of Jesus Himself some 30 years after the last epistle of Paul was written and never even mentioned or confirmed the doctrine of Grace. So that leaves us wondering why He wouldn't confirm a monumental change in the salvation doctrine you derive from Paul's words. I think Paul explains His own words, but most OSAS and "Cheap Grace" adherents deny Paul's own writings that bring that doctrine back in line with the rest of scripture. This was the reason for Peters warning;

2Pe 3:14-17 NIV So then, dear friends, since you are looking forward to this, make every effort to be found spotless, blameless and at peace with him. (15) Bear in mind that our Lord's patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. (16) He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction. (17) Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position.

If you find Revelations hard to accept I say put that out there. If this is true for you don't you think we could all enter into discussion on this important matter?

I don't find any of the scriptures hard to accept. The only difference is where you see YOUR WORK, I see Rest in Christ.

Who are those who keep the commandments AND have the TESTIMONY of Jesus Christ?

Only Christians who Rest in Christ. NOT PEOPLE WHO WORK AT THE LAW. Christians who rest in Christ produce fruit. This fruit is the essence of Obedience. It is the ONLY thing that keeps commandments.

This fruit of obedience isn't produced by your work at the law. Its produced by coming to Christ and receiving Rest. I.E the Testimony of Christ.

Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

 

[DeighAnn]

Here's one of the legalists favorite scriptures;

Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

So, heaven and earth are still here.

So what does that say about the ministry of death and condemnation?

That God through Jesus, took it away (it was a shadow of what was to come) replaced it (Jesus came and the shadow was gone) and it now hangs on the 2 commandments given by Jesus to Love Love Love God, and love your neighbor.

Now instead of Death by law we have Life through forgiveness.


GONE IS The Schoolmaster, GONE IS the shadow of what was to come, GONE IS the 1st Covenant, GONE IS the law of ministry and death ALL GoNE NEVER to be again. Abolished as to letter. Abolished as to stone.

hOW CAN THAT BE???

God coming to earth, Emmanuel with us, Jesus, IS CRUCIFIED TO SEAL IN The 2nd Covenant, DEATH DEFEATED, the law of the kingdom of God, life and forgiveness, written in our minds, written upon our hearts, ON WHICH HANGS THE LAW OF MOSES

 

[Grandpa]

Since our Justification it no longer condemns! Now the Law maintains civil order and lights the path of we who are saved by grace throughout our Sanctification journey! It is a lovely thing to those who are "in Christ" isn't it!

If that were true then how do you lose your salvation?

Something must be condemning you. Surely you don't think it is Christ Himself?

 

[Grandpa]

That God through Jesus, took it away (it was a shadow of what was to come) replaced it (Jesus came and the shadow was gone) and it now hangs on the 2 commandments given by Jesus to Love Love Love God, and love your neighbor.

Now instead of Death by law we have Life through forgiveness.


GONE IS The Schoolmaster, GONE IS the shadow of what was to come, GONE IS the 1st Covenant, GONE IS the law of ministry and death ALL GoNE NEVER to be again. Abolished as to letter. Abolished as to stone.

hOW CAN THAT BE???

God coming to earth, Emmanuel with us, Jesus, IS CRUCIFIED TO SEAL IN The 2nd Covenant, DEATH DEFEATED, the law of the kingdom of God, life and forgiveness, written in our minds, written upon our hearts, ON WHICH HANGS THE LAW OF MOSES

Just a couple posts back you said the law wasn't over.

You seem a little confused.

Do you think the Lord just took away the bad parts so you could turn away from Him and work at your favorite parts?

Not sure if there is any scripture that could back up that position.

 

[DeighAnn]

I don't find any of the scriptures hard to accept. The only difference is where you see YOUR WORK, I see Rest in Christ.

Who are those who keep the commandments AND have the TESTIMONY of Jesus Christ?

Only Christians who Rest in Christ. NOT PEOPLE WHO WORK AT THE LAW. Christians who rest in Christ produce fruit. This fruit is the essence of Obedience. It is the ONLY thing that keeps commandments.

This fruit of obedience isn't produced by your work at the law. Its produced by coming to Christ and receiving Rest. I.E the Testimony of Christ.

Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Are you saying you keep the commandments? and you produce fruit? and you obey? Well congratulations. Now that spirit is working in you. You keep the faith brother


Oh again, NO WORK except in the garden for him. 2

 

[Grandpa]

Are you saying you keep the commandments? and you produce fruit? and you obey? Well congratulations. Now that spirit is working in you. You keep the faith brother


Oh again, NO WORK except in the garden for him. 2

Sort of. More Like I rest in Christ and He does the work.

The commandments are kept but its not by my work or my understanding.

Its by abiding in Christ and producing fruit. Entirely by faith and not my work.

 

[DeighAnn]

I thought you just said that the ministry of condemnation and death is over? Abolished?

Now you are saying its still there.

So which is it?

Could you tell me the difference between the 1 and 2nd Covenants? Please. This may be where the problem lies.

 

[DeighAnn]

If that were true then how do you lose your salvation?

Something must be condemning you. Surely you don't think it is Christ Himself?

John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit for without me ye can do nothing. (BUT WE BEST PRODUCE, THAT TAKES WORK)

We who (the saved) are the branches,

those who abideth ( REMAIN, BE CONSISTENT, STEADFAST) in the root (Jesus) bring forth

those who do NOT abideth (remain) do nothing

John 15:6 If a man abide not (doesn't remain, isn't consistent, isn't steadfast) in me, he is cast forth as a branch

(so the root supplies all the needs to the branch for the branch to stay alive and produce fruit).

(It is not the root producing the fruit, it is the branch producing fruit through the nutrients the root supplies).

(IF the root was producing the fruit, the branch would never quit producing fruit).

(BUT on THE day THE BRANCH decides he wants to do things his way and not the root way, the good root casts him away).

The branch could return saying I am sorry, I messed up, I thought I could do it my way, or continue on the path of death.

HE WAS ONCE a Fruitful BRANCH, He left the root, he withers and dies (Salvation thrown away)

and is withered; and gathered and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. (Judgment Day not saved)

John 15:7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.(Judgment day saved)

 

[Grandpa]

Question 1: So is the following true or false?

A) heart = place of wants & desires

B) mind = place of thoughts & understanding

That seems reasonable.


-----

John 14:26
But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have told you.

Titus 2:11-12
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men. Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;


Question 2: Again, you say (based on Ezekiel) that the promised Holy Spirit does not make you want to work at your understanding of the law. But then what does "teach" mean from the passages above?

Yes. The Holy Spirit doesn't try to make you do things you can't do. You try to do things you can't do based on your misunderstanding. Based on your works mind-set.

The Holy Spirit teaches us that there is only ONE Way to Righteousness and Godliness and that is Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

This faith produces fruit. This fruit is the epitome of Righteousness and Godliness. Not something we can muster up inside ourselves but what is given as a gift from God. Surely that should seem semi-familiar?


-----

Question 3: If the Holy Spirit; the Grace of Yah doesn't teach you about the law but "controls" your effort in obedience to it (as you believe "cause" to mean), how can a person ever sin, once the Holy Spirit is in them?

The Holy Spirit doesn't control our effort, our thoughts or our obedience.

The Holy Spirit only points to Christ.

When we come to Christ and abide in Christ and Trust in Christ that is when the Holy Spirit works in us.

We are still free to turn away from the Holy Spirits teaching and turn to our own works at the law, or whatever other imaginary things that a person thinks causes their obedience.

I try not to turn back to my own work. But after a whole lifetime of thinking it is my work that blesses me and my understanding that blesses me it is kind of not natural to turn to Christ instead and trust fully in Him.

But I try.

Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

That's kind of a hard one, eh?

 

[Grandpa]

John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit for without me ye can do nothing. (BUT WE BEST PRODUCE, THAT TAKES WORK)

We who (the saved) are the branches,

those who abideth ( REMAIN, BE CONSISTENT, STEADFAST) in the root (Jesus) bring forth

those who do NOT abideth (remain) do nothing

John 15:6 If a man abide not (doesn't remain, isn't consistent, isn't steadfast) in me, he is cast forth as a branch

(so the root supplies all the needs to the branch for the branch to stay alive and produce fruit).

(It is not the root producing the fruit, it is the branch producing fruit through the nutrients the root supplies).

(IF the root was producing the fruit, the branch would never quit producing fruit).

(BUT on THE day THE BRANCH decides he wants to do things his way and not the root way, the good root casts him away).

The branch could return saying I am sorry, I messed up, I thought I could do it my way, or continue on the path of death.

HE WAS ONCE a Fruitful BRANCH, He left the root, he withers and dies (Salvation thrown away)

and is withered; and gathered and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. (Judgment Day not saved)

John 15:7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.(Judgment day saved)

So what does the branch have to do in order to produce fruit?

Think real hard about it?

Work real hard at the law?


Or is the branch given fruit as a gift for abiding in the root? You know, knowing where its blessings and provision are and staying in that.

 

[SimpleGardner]

It sounds as though you and I disagree on the identification of "The Olive Tree" in Romans 11. I believe it represents "God's governmental ways upon the earth" (rather than representing "Christ" or "salvation" or "eternal life" or some such...).



Here's something I posted in the past, as explanation/elaboration (two previous posts):


[quoting those two posts]

Here's what I've posted in the past, here, just to clarify […] :
[…]

I'm looking for a different quote by George V Wigram... but (in the meantime) in its place, I'll just post this brief portion also by him (note the phrase "God's governmental ways on earth," which is what I believe Roman's 11's "olive tree" represents):

[quoting GV Wigram]

"Gen. 27:29 [Isaac blessing Jacob]. Let peoples (gamnzim, pl.), serve thee and [manners or sorts of ] nations (l'ummim, pl.) bow down to thee: be lord [a mighty man] over thy brethren.

"Observe, this would not run the source of the division of people back to Shem, Ham and Japhet, so as to make the word to be equivalent to what we call the races of people, in connection with the Noahic earth, who constitute the whole human family. The subdivision here alluded to took place in the family of Isaac, type of the heir of promise, not earlier; and the heads of this subdivision are brought before us in Rom. 9 All God's ways and subdivisions are to be noted."

[also]

"f Israel is the goh'y of experience, promise, blessing on the earth; the center of all God's governmental ways on earth; but in saying that, I look at them from outside and as one whole. When they are owned as gammi, my people, their detailed state and associations within is the aspect in which they are considered."

--George V Wigram

http://bibletruthpublishers.com/heb...t-testimony-psalms-article/g-v-wigram/la61041

____________

[quoting that other article by GV Wigram]

"[re: Romans 11] In Jesus Christ, if the question be about Christian position, eternal life, or the Church considered in her essential relationship to Christ, there was neither Jew nor Gentile; the thoughts found in this chapter [Romans 11] can THERE have no place. If the question be about the cutting off of an individual for sinful conduct, little matters it whether he be Jew or Gentile; that has nothing to do with it, and on the other hand, there would be no question about grafting in again of the Jews more than of any others, and neither Jews nor others could be grafted in, if God had cut them off in such a manner. And if it were a question about a warning from the Apostle to Christians at Rome, and so to others elsewhere, as being brethren, it would be almost nonsense to say, " And thou, O Gentile, take heed!" Why, thou, O Gentile? Had not Christians, Jews by birth, as much need to take heed? Or could the Spirit of God, in such a warning, have made the distinction, and thus denied the principle of, the Church of God in which there is neither Jew nor Gentile? If the question is about a divine administration upon earth, then God can well make the distinction and develop his ways towards the one and the other; and it is plain that from the commencement of the ninth chapter the Apostle is occupied with and pointedly contrasts the Jews and the Gentiles, presenting us with the administration of the divine ways upon the earth. First declaring his attachment to Israel, he points out an election in the election for the earth, and further, that if God according to his sovereignty had chosen Israel (and such was Israel's boast), He had not renounced His sovereignty; and consequently, He could call the Gentiles if he would. Then he recalls to mind that the prophets had shown that a little remnant only, of Israel, at such an epoch, would be saved, and that a stone of stumbling would be laid in Zion."

-- Thoughts on Romans 11 and the Responsibility of the Church, Present Testimony: Volume 4 George V. Wigram

http://bibletruthpublishers.com/tho...the-church/present-testimony-volume-4/la85282

[end quoting; bold and underline mine]


[end quoting those two posts]

_____

And I disagree that "we are Israel" (or "the new Israel"... or related terminology). ALL 73 usages of the word "Israel" in the NT, mean "Israel" ( http://www.middletownbiblechurch.org/reformed/israelaf.htm ).

Had a fast glance, sorry, big chore day, but are you referring to the non-universal theme;

Amo 3:2 KJV You only have I known of all the families of the earth: therefore I will punish you for all your iniquities.

 

[SimpleGardner]

So what does the branch have to do in order to produce fruit?

Think real hard about it?

Work real hard at the law?


Or is the branch given fruit as a gift for abiding in the root? You know, knowing where its blessings and provision are and staying in that.

If that's the case then why prune the branches that don't produce fruit?

Joh 15:1-2 KJV I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. (2) Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

 

[DeighAnn]

Just a couple posts back you said the law wasn't over.

You seem a little confused.

Do you think the Lord just took away the bad parts so you could turn away from Him and work at your favorite parts?

Not sure if there is any scripture that could back up that position.

There is tons of scripture that tells us that is exactly what He did with the law.

Yes, I think the "bad parts = death and condemnation" were taken out. I believe it was not to turn away from Him but to more easily turn to Him. And you are the only one who works at the law.

The law isn't over. It never will be. It is different. As in no longer the same. I am not confused but clearly you are quite a bit confused. Do you know what Jesus accomplished as far as law goes?

 

[DeighAnn]

So what does the branch have to do in order to produce fruit?

Think real hard about it?

Work real hard at the law?


Or is the branch given fruit as a gift for abiding in the root? You know, knowing where its blessings and provision are and staying in that.

I don't understand what part you didn't understand.