Did Jesus ever tell us that we no longer need to keep the law of Moses?

[DeighAnn]

I don't think anyone needs any convincing that they aren't under the Talmud.

I don't think anyone needs any convincing that they aren't under the law of Moses.

 

[SimpleGardner]

Well, maybe I can show by example

Deuteronomy 22: 9. You shall not sow your vineyard with two kinds of seed, lest the whole fruit be forfeited, the seed which you have sown, and the increase of the vineyard.

One person will read that, and decide that it is talking about not being mixed together with unbelievers, not being unequally yoked I think the King James phrasing is. So they are keeping this law spiritually, or they are seeing it as some kind of metaphor or allegory or something. But the seeds that they actually put in the dirt in their small backyard garden where they grow grapes, they put in several varieties of seed.

Another person reads this, and will put only one species of seed into the dirt in their backyard vineyard. So, physical seeds, not metaphorical seeds as in the parable of the sower.

It's the second person, the one who is dealing with physical seeds, that I would say is keeping the law physically.

So Dan,

What exactly are you getting at? Are you looking for a list to keep, a list you can break, a list that requires no consideration? What? When it comes to what you should or shouldn't do, shouldn't you go directly to the source? If someone tells you do this and don't do that, will you comply? Will you keep the recommendations for "that day" for a "get out of judgement free" card? lol.

I still have yet to make sense of your incessant probing of peoples handling of legal matters in the Torah.

Are you compiling a list with details and names?

Are you preparing for an inquisition?

Please explain.

Thank You

 

[SimpleGardner]

Matt 7:21-23 is interpreted the wrong way by some. They say those "christians" were having "works" or getting proud of certain "works" they did. That is not the case. Jesus called them "workers of lawlessness" and that means what it means. Maybe they were doing certain "works" ... but not precisely the works they were supposed to do.

"prophesying in his name, and expeling demons in his name, and performing many powerful works his name" ... From what Jesus tells them those were not the works that were expected of them, but others, which they were obviously not doing, and that is the reason why he calls them the way he does.

the actual word in Matt 7:23 is;

Mat 7:23 KJV+ AndG2532 thenG5119 will I professG3670 unto them,G846 I neverG3763 knewG1097 you:G5209 departG672 fromG575 me,G1700 ye that workG2038 iniquity.G458

a nomia- a meaning without, nomia-meaning the law.

G458
ἀνομία
anomia
Thayer Definition:
1) the condition of without law
1a) because ignorant of it
1b) because of violating it
2) contempt and violation of law, iniquity, wickedness
Part of Speech: noun feminine
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G459
Citing in TDNT: 4:1085, 646
Total KJV Occurrences: 17
iniquity, 9
Mat_7:23, Mat_13:41, Mat_23:28, Mat_24:12, Rom_6:19 (2), 2Th_2:7, Tit_2:14, Heb_1:9
iniquities, 3
Rom_4:7, Heb_8:12, Heb_10:17
law, 2
1Jo_3:4 (2)
transgresseth, 1
1Jo_3:4
transgression, 1
1Jo_3:4
unrighteousness, 1
2Co_6:14



The "many" Jesus was referring to that were in fact "working" in "religion" were doing so "without the Law" What might be signs of their lawlessness? Careless mischaracterizations of sincere believers, deliberate misquoting, slander, etc, etc.

 

[SimpleGardner]

Maybe it is not me who does not believe in Jesus:

John 15:1 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the cultivator. 2 He takes away every branch in me not bearing fruit, and he cleans every one bearing fruit, so that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word that I have spoken to you. 4 Remain in union with me, and I will remain in union with you. Just as the branch cannot bear fruit by itself unless it remains in the vine, neither can you unless you remain in union with me. 5 I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever remains in union with me and I in union with him, this one bears much fruit; for apart from me you can do nothing at all. 6 If anyone does not remain in union with me, he is thrown out like a branch and dries up. And men gather those branches and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. 7 If you remain in union with me and my sayings remain in you, ask whatever you wish and it will take place for you. 8 My Father is glorified in this, that you keep bearing much fruit and prove yourselves my disciples. 9 Just as the Father has loved me, so I have loved you; remain in my love. 10 If you observe my commandments, you will remain in my love, just as I have observed the commandments of the Father and remain in his love.

Why is a branch cut?

Greetings Eli12,

I have yet to find any other way to Love, or have fellowship with Jesus or The Heavenly Father!

Here it is;

Joh 14:21 KJV He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

There just isn't any other way that I have found.

Here's another confirmation;

Exo 20:6 KJV And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

And so again, the verse you referenced earlier ties directly into these;

Mat 7:21-23 KJV Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. (22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? (23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.(without the Law)

So a perfect compliment to John 14:21 where Jesus said to love Him you must know and keep His commandments. And if you do this; He will establish fellowship/know you. So in the verse above when He declares to those religionists "I never knew you!" and then states the same condition for knowing Him in John 14:21 was neglected!

Perfect fit, no gray areas, absolute!

 

[Grandpa]

So Dan,

What exactly are you getting at? Are you looking for a list to keep, a list you can break, a list that requires no consideration? What? When it comes to what you should or shouldn't do, shouldn't you go directly to the source? If someone tells you do this and don't do that, will you comply? Will you keep the recommendations for "that day" for a "get out of judgement free" card? lol.

I still have yet to make sense of your incessant probing of peoples handling of legal matters in the Torah.

Are you compiling a list with details and names?

Are you preparing for an inquisition?

Please explain.

Thank You

Which laws, which commandments, exactly, are the ones that cause fellowship with God?

Not eating bacon and ham?

Resting on saturdays?

Not killing people?

Not committing adultery?

Not worshipping idols?

what amount of work do you do that can qualify you enough to have fellowship with God?


I think this is what Dan is asking...

Which of those laws is making you unblemished and spotless before God?

Maybe he just wants you to think it through for yourself.


It is kind of strange that no one will answer him. If I was a legalist or judaizer I would have a list ready to go. Here's what you do and why you do it.

1. Rest on saturdays. God really likes that. Don't rest on sunday. Only pagans do that. God doesn't like pagans.

2. Don't eat pork chops. They give you upset stomach. God doesn't like that. He likes good digestion.

You could add all kinds of things to this list. I think we should!! Probably don't go over 613. That seems to be the limit that people really want to work at. Anything more than that and its diminishing returns all the way.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

It is not about trying to follow "the law". The law is good because it shows what is wrong or right and that's it. Now we don't need the law just to know what is everything about, like Paul said:

Rom 7:7 What, then, shall we say? Is the Law sin? Never may that become so! Really I would not have come to know sin if it had not been for the Law; and, for example, I would not have known covetousness if the Law had not said: “You must not covet.” 8 But sin, receiving an inducement through the commandment, worked out in me covetousness of every sort, for apart from law sin was dead. 9 In fact, I was once alive apart from law; but when the commandment arrived, sin came to life again, but I died. 10 And the commandment which was to life, this I found to be to death. 11 For sin, receiving an inducement through the commandment, seduced me and killed me through it. 12 Wherefore, on its part, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.

When we study the Bible we come to know what is wrong and what is right. That knowledge goes to our heart and we try to tune our thoughts and actions with that knowledge. Some people get it easier, some not that easy ... but we need to get more and more knowledge that can make us go in the right direction. It is not about us trying to buy our salvation, it is about us trying to do what is good from God's point of view and stop doing what is wrong in that same sense.

If your TRYING, thats the issue.

God offers rest from our work. Lawyers want to keep TRYING (working)

Thats why the law can never make a person rightious. You have to WORK at keeping the law. (And still fail) Thats not rest.

I wish you all would realize the truth and the power behind Gods work in sanctification

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Greetings Eli12,

I have yet to find any other way to Love, or have fellowship with Jesus or The Heavenly Father!

Here it is;

Joh 14:21 KJV He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

There just isn't any other way that I have found.

Here's another confirmation;

Exo 20:6 KJV And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

And so again, the verse you referenced earlier ties directly into these;

Mat 7:21-23 KJV Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. (22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? (23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.(without the Law)

So a perfect compliment to John 14:21 where Jesus said to love Him you must know and keep His commandments. And if you do this; He will establish fellowship/know you. So in the verse above when He declares to those religionists "I never knew you!" and then states the same condition for knowing Him in John 14:21 was neglected!

Perfect fit, no gray areas, absolute!

Yet,

We who LOVE keep the commands.

You do not keep the commands by TRYING.. or WORKING AT IT. And you can KEEP the letter and STILL FALL SHORT>

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I've tried to use scripture to show this.

I've tried explaining in my own words.

I've tried explaining in other theologians words.

I've tried to explain with hymns and songs.


After awhile it just gets old trying to explain the same things over and over to people who can't understand.

Fruit inspectors and lawyers have to break down alot of barriers to see.

 

[Eli12]

Fruit inspectors and lawyers have to break down alot of barriers to see.

You're taking things in a wrong way; I don't think of myself as a "fruit inspector" or a "lawyer" ... I am serving my God, following Jesus, doing my part as much as I can ... same as others. You are putting me in that position in your mind; so you are the one judging me.

If you read my posts you'll see I am not saying that we earn salvation by works. We must obey God, that's it. You saw that some people talk about not doing anything to please God and show ourselves that we at least are fighting. You think that when I say "fighting" it means that I think my salvation depends on my works. You are missunderstanding my words, and about "fighting", that's a word that you will find in the Scriptures. Paul fought, and said this:

1 Cor 9:24 Do YOU not know that the runners in a race all run, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way that YOU may attain it. 25 Moreover, every man taking part in a contest exercises self-control in all things. Now they, of course, do it that they may get a corruptible crown, but we an incorruptible one. 26 Therefore, the way I am running is not uncertainly; the way I am directing my blows is so as not to be striking the air; 27 but I pummel my body and lead it as a slave, that, after I have preached to others, I myself should not become disapproved somehow.

If Paul didn't think that he was secured without fighting (2 Tim 6:12), was he wrong? Am I wrong for saying the same that he said?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You're taking things in a wrong way; I don't think of myself as a "fruit inspector" or a "lawyer" ... I am serving my God, following Jesus, doing my part as much as I can ... same as others. You are putting me in that position in your mind; so you are the one judging me.

If you read my posts you'll see I am not saying that we earn salvation by works. We must obey God, that's it. You saw that some people talk about not doing anything to please God and show ourselves that we at least are fighting. You think that when I say "fighting" it means that I think my salvation depends on my works. You are missunderstanding my words, and about "fighting", that's a word that you will find in the Scriptures. Paul fought, and said this:

1 Cor 9:24 Do YOU not know that the runners in a race all run, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way that YOU may attain it. 25 Moreover, every man taking part in a contest exercises self-control in all things. Now they, of course, do it that they may get a corruptible crown, but we an incorruptible one. 26 Therefore, the way I am running is not uncertainly; the way I am directing my blows is so as not to be striking the air; 27 but I pummel my body and lead it as a slave, that, after I have preached to others, I myself should not become disapproved somehow.

If Paul didn't think that he was secured without fighting (2 Tim 6:12), was he wrong? Am I wrong for saying the same that he said?

What happens if we get saved, and fail to obey God to a certain extent?

 

[Eli12]

I don't think anyone can be sure of being "saved" until the day of judgment has passed.

 

[DeighAnn]

Which laws, which commandments, exactly, are the ones that cause fellowship with God?

Not eating bacon and ham?

Resting on saturdays?

Not killing people?

Not committing adultery?

Not worshipping idols?

what amount of work do you do that can qualify you enough to have fellowship with God?


I think this is what Dan is asking...

Which of those laws is making you unblemished and spotless before God?

Maybe he just wants you to think it through for yourself.


It is kind of strange that no one will answer him. If I was a legalist or judaizer I would have a list ready to go. Here's what you do and why you do it.

1. Rest on saturdays. God really likes that. Don't rest on sunday. Only pagans do that. God doesn't like pagans.

2. Don't eat pork chops. They give you upset stomach. God doesn't like that. He likes good digestion.

You could add all kinds of things to this list. I think we should!! Probably don't go over 613. That seems to be the limit that people really want to work at. Anything more than that and its diminishing returns all the way.

1 Don't eat scavengers. Those are unclean. They are good for what they were created for, and that is to clean the earth.
God who created not just the heavens and the earth created our "flesh bodies" too. As such, He knows what foods to put into this "body of Christ" to keep it healthy. Do you want to pollute the temple. NO. What if God has a purpose for you down the road and you went and killed off you flesh body by going and doing what God said not to do? What does He now have to heal you because you disobeyed? Nah, I think He will just move on to the next. Billions of speculation questions I will not answer past this point. Does it make God happy when you comply with the wisdom of knowledge He has provided you? I am going out on a limb and I am going to put in a vote for YEA. I think it makes God happy. (What if, just what if doing this covered a multitude of sins) aaahhhhhhhhhh yes. If not, I have been in obedience progressing towards perfection anyhow. Spot or blemish here, not that I haven't repented for.

2. Jesus became our rest. Don't judge in Holy or Sabbath days. LOve the freedom to love Him all the time. So no judgment. Gods job. Resting in Jesus as in His yoke is light, yes it is. No spot or blemish here, not that I haven't repented for.

3 No murder, adultery especially no idols Not even close, not that I haven't repented for

4 Definitely personal. Some need all day every day, some not so much. If He isn't working in you and your life, I would say more. I will bet that is why we were left the Comforter, just for such questions.

5 The blood of Jesus washed us clean. Trick question? How very Pharisee.

Non asked questions.



Blood laws none No flesh blood Jesus, the Lamb of God
all that was encompassed with the shedding of blood for the remission of sins



Veil Jesus now Our High Priest, rent the veil from top to bottom at 3:00 the moment the Priest was to go into the Holy of Holies. No more do we go through any man. We go through the Holy Spirit, the blood of Christ direct to our Father.


Civil law no need, we have courts

Moral law Love the Lord thy God with all you are, love your neighbor as yourself.

Any others? Just look within. There they are. No man can tell you what only God can tell you. You need to searchit out yourself and you and you alone will stand in front of God. There will be no blaming anyone for any false information you may have received because you CHOOSE. Do you accept a lie or seek out the truth. Personally I believe this last generation will be judged the hardest as we have more exposure to the word than anyone ever has, God sent all that we needed. He told us to seek and we shall find. That isn't the same as ask others what the found when they went a seeking. If is seem good to you to discard all of Gods laws so you don't do a couple of them right so you would rather not try at all, It is your judgement day. I bet it will all be clear then.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I don't think anyone can be sure of being "saved" until the day of judgment has passed.

John said we can know, Paul said it was a completed act,

Trust god, not human wisdom

 

[Eli12]

John said we can know, Paul said it was a completed act,

Trust god, not human wisdom

Yours is human wisdom, EG ... Don't think of yourself more than what you should. What Paul said is this:

2 Cor 5:10 For we must all be made manifest before the judgment seat of the Christ, that each one may get his award for the things done through the body, according to the things he has practiced, whether it is good or vile.

Rom 14:10 (ALT) But why do you judge your brother? Or also, why do you despise [or, look down on] your brother? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
11 For it has been written, "[As] I live, says [the] LORD, every knee will bow to Me, and every tongue will confess to God."
12 So, consequently, each of us will give an account concerning himself to God.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Yours is human wisdom, EG ... Don't think of yourself more than what you should. What Paul said is this:

2 Cor 5:10 For we must all be made manifest before the judgment seat of the Christ, that each one may get his award for the things done through the body, according to the things he has practiced, whether it is good or vile.

Rom 14:10 (ALT) But why do you judge your brother? Or also, why do you despise [or, look down on] your brother? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
11 For it has been written, "[As] I live, says [the] LORD, every knee will bow to Me, and every tongue will confess to God."
12 So, consequently, each of us will give an account concerning himself to God.

No, its gods wisdom

John said he wrote so we can know,we have eternal life. Paul said we have been saved, jesus said we will never die

Satan wants you to think salvation is not assured not god

 

[Eli12]

We can have eternal life if we follow Jesus ... it is not enought to believe, we must obey up to the end.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

We can have eternal life if we follow Jesus ... it is not enought to believe, we must obey up to the end.

John said we can know we have it,, we cant know we have it if it is not assured.jesus said we have it. Why call him aliar?

 

[SimpleGardner]

We can have eternal life if we follow Jesus ... it is not enought to believe, we must obey up to the end.

Eli12,

There is such a thing as being persecuted for the sake of loving righteousness.

Mat 5:10 KJV Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Modern day Pharisee-ism.

Every time I mention the Pharisees they are offended and even defend them? Not sure what that is about.

SG

 

[Eli12]

John said we can know we have it,, we cant know we have it if it is not assured.jesus said we have it. Why call him aliar?

Nobody is calling John a liar; you are missunderstanding his words. We have eternal life if we follow Jesus up to the end, and that is it. If we stop following Jesus, we don't have eternal life. Maybe you should consider what it is to follow Jesus. Look at his life and you will see what is required of his followers; no one is better than him, so what happen to him is in front of us to see the model he put.

 

[KJV1611]

We can have eternal life if we follow Jesus ... it is not enought to believe, we must obey up to the end.

What do you think about Paul admitting that he couldn't obey up to the end?

Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Rom 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.