Not By Works

[mailmandan]

There is approximately 18 in between the two. The person can accept in his HEAD that something is true; HOWEVER BELIEF ONLY HAPPENS IN THE HEART (Human Spirit).

Here is a prime example of those of those who only accept the stories about JESUS are TRUE in their heads, and you will see that accepting the FACTS, is not SALVATION.

James 2:19 (HCSB)
19 You believe that God is one; you do well. The demons also believe—and they shudder.

They only acknowledged the facts about JESUS were true in their heads.

Yes, in James 2:19, we see that the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God, “but they do not believe/have faith in/trust in/reliance in Jesus Christ for salvation.

In other words, they do not believe on the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31) and are not saved. Their trust and reliance is in Satan, as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works.

There are many people who profess to be Christians and believe that the death, burial and resurrection of Christ “happened,” yet fail to trust in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of their salvation.

That is the difference between believing in your head and believing in your heart.

 

[VCO]

Yes, in James 2:19, we see that the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God, “but they do not believe/have faith in/trust in/reliance in Jesus Christ for salvation.

In other words, they do not believe on the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31) and are not saved. Their trust and reliance is in Satan, as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works.

There are many people who profess to be Christians and believe that the death, burial and resurrection of Christ “happened,” yet fail to trust in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of their salvation.

That is the difference between believing in your head and believing in your heart.

Yes and I meant that 18 to be 18". Head Knowledge does not Save, but KNOWING HIM in the Heart (Human Spirit) does SAVE.

IT SAYS SO:

Romans 10:9-11 (NASB)
9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord [NOT JUST PROFESS], and believe in your heart [NOT in your head, but rather believe in your Human Spirit] that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
10 for with the heart [Human Spirit] a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.
11 For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES [LIKE THIS] IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."

 

[dcontroversal]

WOW, I just realize what you are talking about. THE FRUIT is not GOOD WORKS FROM MEN, which it NEVER HAS BEEN. They or the SPIRITUAL FRUIT produced by the HOLY SPIRIT inside you.

Matthew 13:9 (HCSB)
9 Anyone who has ears should listen!”


Galatians 5:22-23 (HCSB)
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faith,
23 gentleness, self-control. Against such things there is no law.


I appears you are Conflating Good Works with FRUIT OF THE SPIRIT.

HIS very next sentence should tell you what he was talking about:


Matthew 13:10 (HCSB)
10 Then the disciples came up and asked Him, “Why do You speak to them in parables?”
Matthew 13:11 (HCSB)
11 He answered them, “Because the secrets of the kingdom of heaven have been given for you to know,
but it has not been given to them.

Not hardly......go read and you will see that I have consistently from day one pointed to Christ and said that HE is one that produces fruit and or works in us as a living sacrifice.....nice try....no cigar migo......

 

[dcontroversal]

No, JESUS DID EXACTLY THAT IN MAT. 7.

HAHAHHAHAHHA JESUS did NOT conflate HOW TO BE SAVED with BEARING FRUIT.............WOW man....is that your Catholic roots coming up to the top again.....

HOW to BE SAVED has NOTHING to do with BEARING FRUIT or WORKS........

I suggest the following....

But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness

 

[Eli12]

Maybe we can understand better Mark 4:3-8 if we go to the explanation Jesus gave about that ilustration:

Mark 4:14 “The sower sows the word.
15 These, then, are the ones alongside the road where the word is sown; but as soon as they have heard [it] Satan comes and takes away the word that was sown in them.
16 And likewise these are the ones sown upon the rocky places: as soon as they have heard the word, they accept it with joy. 17 Yet they have no root in themselves, but they continue for a time; then as soon as tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, they are stumbled.
18 There are still others who are sown among the thorns; these are the ones that have heard the word, 19 but the anxieties of this system of things and the deceptive power of riches and the desires for the rest of the things make inroads and choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful.
20 Finally, the ones that were sown on the fine soil are those who listen to the word and favorably receive it and bear fruit thirtyfold and sixty and a hundred.”

We must read what he said about why some of the seeds didn't give fruits. Maybe we must ask ourselves what kind of soil we are and what are our own circumstances ... The same with the cut branches (John 15:1-6).

The branches are not cut because the tree did not give them enough sap; the problem was not in the vine or the sower, but in the branches ... just as it is not in the seed but in the ground. We are the branches (if we are in union with Christ) and we are the soil where the seed is sown if we are receiving the Word. What kind of branches are we? and what kind of soil? That depends on ourselves, not on the quality of the work of Jesus or the inadequacy of the message we receive from God.

 

[dcontroversal]

Maybe we can understand better Mark 4:3-8 if we go to the explanation Jesus gave about that ilustration:

Mark 4:14 “The sower sows the word.
15 These, then, are the ones alongside the road where the word is sown; but as soon as they have heard [it] Satan comes and takes away the word that was sown in them.
16 And likewise these are the ones sown upon the rocky places: as soon as they have heard the word, they accept it with joy. 17 Yet they have no root in themselves, but they continue for a time; then as soon as tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, they are stumbled.
18 There are still others who are sown among the thorns; these are the ones that have heard the word, 19 but the anxieties of this system of things and the deceptive power of riches and the desires for the rest of the things make inroads and choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful.
20 Finally, the ones that were sown on the fine soil are those who listen to the word and favorably receive it and bear fruit thirtyfold and sixty and a hundred.”

We must read what he said about why some of the seeds didn't give fruits. Maybe we must ask ourselves what kind of soil we are and what are our own circumstances ... The same with the cut branches (John 15:1-6).

The branches are not cut because the tree did not give them enough sap; the problem was not in the vine or the sower, but in the branches ... just as it is not in the seed but in the ground. We are the branches (if we are in union with Christ) and we are the soil where the seed is sown if we are receiving the Word. What kind of branches are we? and what kind of soil? That depends on ourselves, not on the quality of the work of Jesus or the inadequacy of the message we receive from God.

I still say that there is biblical evidence that supports 3 of the 4 listed as being saved......1st on the list is the way most go (the broad path of unbelief) and the bible is replete with proof that all three of latter three are found in scripture

a. Those who are super faithful that bear an abundance of fruit
b. Those that are saved yet worldly and carnal with little to no fruit, but saved by faith
c. Those that are saved and yet easily offended due to immaturity

I can find examples of ALL three in the bible and even scriptures that point to such.......even the 70 that had been told there names were written in heaven and to rejoice over that fact got OFFENDED at a message JESUS preached and walked no more with HIM......

Luke warns of having our hearts weighed down with worldliness

The Corinthian assembly was IMMATURE, CARNAL and worldly and had some 15 errors including a man that was to be cut loose for the destruction of the flesh due to fornication yet identified as a brother and saved.

and MY bible is clear and states clearly that even if one does not word but BELIEVES his faith is credited to RIGHTEOUSNESS

But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness

 

[Eli12]

I don't need to interpret the ilustrations in a different way, cause I can understand that the branches are cut because they didn't produce fruits, and the seeds didn't grow as a plant because of the soil and circunstances where they felt. A branch won't stay on the vine without fruits, no way. There are a lot of branches that can be inserted instead.

Rom 11:13 Now I speak to YOU who are people of the nations. Forasmuch as I am, in reality, an apostle to the nations, I glorify my ministry, 14 if I may by any means incite [those who are] my own flesh to jealousy and save some from among them. 15 For if the casting of them away means reconciliation for the world, what will the receiving of them mean but life from the dead? 16 Further, if the [part taken as] firstfruits is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are also.
17 However, if some of the branches were broken off but you, although being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became a sharer of the olive’s root of fatness, 18 do not be exulting over the branches. If, though, you are exulting over them, it is not you that bear the root, but the root [bears] you. 19 You will say, then: “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20 All right! For [their] lack of faith they were broken off, but you are standing by faith. Quit having lofty ideas, but be in fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. 22 See, therefore, God’s kindness and severity. Toward those who fell there is severity, but toward you there is God’s kindness, provided you remain in his kindness; otherwise, you also will be lopped off. 23 They also, if they do not remain in their lack of faith, will be grafted in; for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree that is wild by nature and were grafted contrary to nature into the garden olive tree, how much rather will these who are natural be grafted into their own olive tree!

 

[dcontroversal]

I don't need to interpret the ilustrations in a different way, cause I can understand that the branches are cut because they didn't produce fruits, and the seeds didn't grow as a plant because of the soil and circunstances where they felt. A branch won't stay on the vine without fruits, no way. There are a lot of branches that can be inserted instead.

Rom 11:13 Now I speak to YOU who are people of the nations. Forasmuch as I am, in reality, an apostle to the nations, I glorify my ministry, 14 if I may by any means incite [those who are] my own flesh to jealousy and save some from among them. 15 For if the casting of them away means reconciliation for the world, what will the receiving of them mean but life from the dead? 16 Further, if the [part taken as] firstfruits is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are also.
17 However, if some of the branches were broken off but you, although being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became a sharer of the olive’s root of fatness, 18 do not be exulting over the branches. If, though, you are exulting over them, it is not you that bear the root, but the root [bears] you. 19 You will say, then: “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20 All right! For [their] lack of faith they were broken off, but you are standing by faith. Quit having lofty ideas, but be in fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. 22 See, therefore, God’s kindness and severity. Toward those who fell there is severity, but toward you there is God’s kindness, provided you remain in his kindness; otherwise, you also will be lopped off. 23 They also, if they do not remain in their lack of faith, will be grafted in; for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree that is wild by nature and were grafted contrary to nature into the garden olive tree, how much rather will these who are natural be grafted into their own olive tree!

HAHAH I can walk about 20 feet and take a picture of my tomato plants that shows vines VERY MUCH ALIVE and tied to the ROOT with and without tomatoes......

SO.......end of story!

 

[Eli12]

You are watching your tomatoes ... good luck with them.
I can see in the Scriptures that not only branches can be cut, but whole trees:

Matt 7:19 Every tree not producing fine fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Really, then, by their fruits you will recognize those men.

The whole jewish system was cut, and they were getting sap from a good root:

Luk 13:6 Then he went on to tell this illustration: “A man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard, and he came looking for fruit on it but found none. 7 Then he said to the vinedresser, ‘Here it is three years that I have come looking for fruit on this fig tree, but have found none. Cut it down! Why should it keep the ground useless?’ 8 In reply he said to him, ‘Master, leave it alone for one more year until I dig around it and put on manure. 9 If it produces fruit in the future, well and good; but if not, then cut it down.’”

John the Baptist used the same ilustration:

Matt 3:10 Already the ax is lying at the root of the trees; every tree, then, that does not produce fine fruit is to be cut down and thrown into the fire.

We must get the whole picture, not to try seing only from one angle, cause we are missing the other side. We can not avoid what we don't like from the Scriptures ... we would be lying to ourselves.

 

[VCO]

Not hardly......go read and you will see that I have consistently from day one
pointed to Christ and said that HE is one that produces fruit and or works in us as a living sacrifice.....nice try....no cigar migo......

So are you misunderstanding me, or am I misunderstanding You, or BOTH.

Did you not say it is a mistake to compare the Parable of the Soils prepared by the Holy Spirit, to FRUIT Produced by the power of the HOLY SPIRIT, Giving us the Tell Tail, sign that OUR SALVATION was REAL, such as these:

is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faith,
gentleness, self-control. Against such things there is no law.

BOTH deal with SALVATION from opposite ends:

The Soils deals with only GOOD SOIL in our hearts, is the type of soil, capable of producing a Harvest.

Only The Fruit of the SPIRIT, is evidence that our SALVATION WAS REAL WHEN WE FIRST BELIEVED.

 

[dcontroversal]

So are you misunderstanding me, or am I misunderstanding You, or BOTH.

Did you not say it is a mistake to compare the Parable of the Soils prepared by the Holy Spirit, to FRUIT Produced by the power of the HOLY SPIRIT, Giving us the Tell Tail, sign that OUR SALVATION was REAL, such as these:

is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faith,
gentleness, self-control. Against such things there is no law.

BOTH deal with SALVATION from opposite ends:

The Soils deals with only GOOD SOIL in our hearts, is the type of soil, capable of producing a Harvest.

Only The Fruit of the SPIRIT, is evidence that our SALVATION WAS REAL WHEN WE FIRST BELIEVED.

Did you see your bolded above.......pay attention to the big bolded word.........and then tell me that every man, woman and child that is born again from above is fruitless......EVEN if they never lift a finger once after being saved to do anything for Christ.....and that is WHAT escapes everyone pushing fruit or works as evidence of salvation...

HE that BELIEVES (HAS FAITH) on the ONE that was SENT has done the WORKS of the HEAVENLY FATHER

 

[dcontroversal]

You are watching your tomatoes ... good luck with them.
I can see in the Scriptures that not only branches can be cut, but whole trees:

Matt 7:19 Every tree not producing fine fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Really, then, by their fruits you will recognize those men.

The whole jewish system was cut, and they were getting sap from a good root:

Luk 13:6 Then he went on to tell this illustration: “A man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard, and he came looking for fruit on it but found none. 7 Then he said to the vinedresser, ‘Here it is three years that I have come looking for fruit on this fig tree, but have found none. Cut it down! Why should it keep the ground useless?’ 8 In reply he said to him, ‘Master, leave it alone for one more year until I dig around it and put on manure. 9 If it produces fruit in the future, well and good; but if not, then cut it down.’”

John the Baptist used the same ilustration:

Matt 3:10 Already the ax is lying at the root of the trees; every tree, then, that does not produce fine fruit is to be cut down and thrown into the fire.

We must get the whole picture, not to try seing only from one angle, cause we are missing the other side. We can not avoid what we don't like from the Scriptures ... we would be lying to ourselves.

 

[Eli12]

Now I remembered why I had put you on my ignore list.

 

[dcontroversal]

Now I remembered why I had put you on my ignore list.

My bible tells me clearly that CREATION testifies and DAY UNTO DAY utters speech....JESUS as well as others USED a plethora of WORLDLY examples based upon CREATION.....you making some FLIPPANT mouthy response when I made a very BIBLICAL observation tells me that you are NOT interested in the TRUTH...this is exactly why you are in ERROR on many biblical truths.....

 

[VCO]

HAHAHHAHAHHA JESUS did NOT conflate HOW TO BE SAVED with BEARING FRUIT.............WOW man....is that your Catholic roots coming up to the top again.....

HOW to BE SAVED has NOTHING to do with BEARING FRUIT or WORKS........

I suggest the following....

But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness

You said that NOT ME. You are confused totally. The FRUIT OF THE SPIRIT is NEVER PRODUCED by HUMAN EFFORTS. You can TELL those who are REAL CHRISTIANS from the Phony Pretenders by the FRUIT OF THE SPIRIT.

How to be SAVED:

Romans 10:9-11 (NASB)
9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord [NOT JUST PROFESS], and believe in your heart [NOT in your head, but rather believe in your Human Spirit] that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
10 for with the heart [Human Spirit] a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.
11 For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES [LIKE THIS] IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."

What kind of evidence did the Holy Spirit place in your HEART that you really were SAVED the moment YOU GENUINELY BELIEVED:

Galatians 5:22-23 (HCSB)
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faith,
23 gentleness, self-control. Against such things there is no law.

Those are typical of our NEW LIFESTYLE CHARACTERISTICS in our NEWLY BORN AGAIN Human Spirit, born into Eternal Life, and NONE of them are of our human nature or our human efforts; IT IS ALL OF THE HOLY SPIRIT.


NOW THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT IN MEANT BY THAT. So want on GOD's green earth did you think I meant ? ? ?


Going off half cocked.

 

[Eli12]

If the fruits don't requiere human efforts, then you are saying that those branches were cut because the spirit did an inadequate job.

 

[dcontroversal]

You said that NOT ME. You are confused totally. The FRUIT OF THE SPIRIT is NEVER PRODUCED by HUMAN EFFORTS. You can TELL those who are REAL CHRISTIANS from the Phony Pretenders by the FRUIT OF THE SPIRIT.

How to be SAVED:

Romans 10:9-11 (NASB)
9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord [NOT JUST PROFESS], and believe in your heart [NOT in your head, but rather believe in your Human Spirit] that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
10 for with the heart [Human Spirit] a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.
11 For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES [LIKE THIS] IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."

What kind of evidence did the Holy Spirit place in your HEART that you really were SAVED the moment YOU GENUINELY BELIEVED:

Galatians 5:22-23 (HCSB)
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faith,
23 gentleness, self-control. Against such things there is no law.

Those are typical of our NEW LIFESTYLE CHARACTERISTICS in our NEWLY BORN AGAIN Human Spirit, born into Eternal Life, and NONE of them are of our human nature or our human efforts; IT IS ALL OF THE HOLY SPIRIT.


NOW THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT IN MEANT BY THAT. So want on GOD's green earth did you think I meant ? ? ?

Quote me saying something contrary to the big bolded quote I highlighted....I HAVE, 100% every time, and all times stated that CHRIST produces through us....so...if you think I believe anything different than that....you have not read a thing I have written or you are confused my friend

 

[dcontroversal]

If the fruits don't requiere human efforts, then you are saying that those branches were cut because the spirit did an inadequate job.

SO......what produces fruit.....let's use my Tomato plants.......is it the ROOT or the BRANCHES that produce the fruit?

THE ROOT is what produces.....THE BRANCHES but BEAR or HOLD the fruit produced by the ROOT..........

 

[Eli12]

Human beings are not tomato plants. Start there.

 

[dcontroversal]

Human beings are not tomato plants. Start there.

JESUS compared them to plants and TREES...get over your ignorance....

MY ASSESSMENT is valid pal......