Did Jesus ever tell us that we no longer need to keep the law of Moses?

[Karraster]

Greetings Karraster,

Do you think the Law that Peter referred to was the Torah or could they have been referring to the Talmud?

Also, Are you familiar with the efforts of John Hyrcanus in the 1st century BC?

Hi, no can't place John Hyrcanus. Do you recommend him? Not sure that Peter did, any particular verse? I'm convinced Paul referred to Talmud some, as well as quoted philosophers. I'm also of the opinion that Messiah agreed with some of their teachings as long as they didn't interfere/contradict with Torah.

 

[Karraster]

Many thanks I will have a read. It would be also interesting to hear from those that use this term to see how they are applying it and why they apply it. I guess many people may have a different reason for using it. I am not sure but thankyou very much for sharing your link.

Blessings

Thank you. I haven't looked into that thread since it was current, and thoroughly enjoyed a quick read thru. Some of those members are no longer here and that's very sad to me, I still think about them.

 

[NayborBear]

Hi 3rdAngel, I hear it takes a little time nowadays to start a thread due to it having to be approved. Could be that your thread will get posted. In the mean time, here is a link to a thread I created 5 years ago. I was new here and had never heard the term before seeing it here. So I did quite a bit of research on it, hope you find it useful.
https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...re-you-one-do-you-know-anybody-that-is.83255/

Awesome article, that was!

How can today's Believers, be taught the difference/s from the Mosiac law, and "the law as it had become", during the days of Jesus, when all they have been taught, is the Mosiac law, IS THE SAME LAW IT WAS IN JESUS' DAY?
One tries to esplain and esplain, concerning the "law" as it had BECOME? And YES! You break ANY of "THOSE" laws? and you'd live under the CURSE! But, NOT the "Curse of God!" Merely, the "Curse of the Jewish community of that time!" As MUCH as the Priests and High Priests of that time would strive so very hard to FORCE one TO believe one was CURSED OF GOD!
T'was WHY they HATED Messiah! Some present day Jews STILL hate Messiah! Or, don't believe Messiah has come, and are still WAITING!

 

[Marcelo]

For some reason I started a thread called "What is a Judaizer" and I cannot find it now as I think it was deleted.

Probably your thread is awaiting approval.

 

[SimpleGardner]

Hi, no can't place John Hyrcanus. Do you recommend him? Not sure that Peter did, any particular verse? I'm convinced Paul referred to Talmud some, as well as quoted philosophers. I'm also of the opinion that Messiah agreed with some of their teachings as long as they didn't interfere/contradict with Torah.

When you mentioned the issue of converting the ethnos/Gentiles to Judaism it reminded me of John HyrcanusII. He was first the High Priest ,Then King of Judea and eventually ethnarch of Judea. History records his warring with the Edomites to the South eventually conquering them and forcing their conversion to Judiasm and integration into Judea! They made up part of the Pharisees, even the King of Judea during the time of Jesus was an Edomite! Highly unusual! This brings more light to many of the conversations Jesus had with the Pharisees, esp John ch 8.

 

[Karraster]

Awesome article, that was!

How can today's Believers, be taught the difference/s from the Mosiac law, and "the law as it had become", during the days of Jesus, when all they have been taught, is the Mosiac law, IS THE SAME LAW IT WAS IN JESUS' DAY?
One tries to esplain and esplain, concerning the "law" as it had BECOME? And YES! You break ANY of "THOSE" laws? and you'd live under the CURSE! But, NOT the "Curse of God!" Merely, the "Curse of the Jewish community of that time!" As MUCH as the Priests and High Priests of that time would strive so very hard to FORCE one TO believe one was CURSED OF GOD!
T'was WHY they HATED Messiah! Some present day Jews STILL hate Messiah! Or, don't believe Messiah has come, and are still WAITING!

It was quite the political climate. Some would say, "the perfect storm".

7 Then the chief priests and the Pharisees called a meeting of the Sanhedrin.
“What are we accomplishing?” they asked. “Here is this man performing many signs. 48 If we let him go on like this, everyone will believe in him, and then the Romans will come and take away both our temple and our nation.”

49 Then one of them, named Caiaphas, who was high priest that year, spoke up, “You know nothing at all! 50 You do not realize that it is better for you that one man die for the people than that the whole nation perish.”

51 He did not say this on his own, but as high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the Jewish nation, 52 and not only for that nation but also for the scattered children of God, to bring them together and make them one. 53 So from that day on they plotted to take his life.

 

[Karraster]

When you mentioned the issue of converting the ethnos/Gentiles to Judaism it reminded me of John HyrcanusII. He was first the High Priest ,Then King of Judea and eventually ethnarch of Judea. History records his warring with the Edomites to the South eventually conquering them and forcing their conversion to Judiasm and integration into Judea! They made up part of the Pharisees, even the King of Judea during the time of Jesus was an Edomite! Highly unusual! This brings more light to many of the conversations Jesus had with the Pharisees, esp John ch 8.

Absolutely...they were no Levites, were they? Possibly tho they started out innocent enough. Being scattered and no temple when they formed, I imagine they were making laws right and left to make certain they obeyed to keep from being taken away captive again. But, as it always happens with men in power.....corruption.

 

[SimpleGardner]

Absolutely...they were no Levites, were they? Possibly tho they started out innocent enough. Being scattered and no temple when they formed, I imagine they were making laws right and left to make certain they obeyed to keep from being taken away captive again. But, as it always happens with men in power.....corruption.

Another reflective point; the descendants of Esau were getting their chance to play the role as firstborn over Gods people. They had control of Gods City and His temple and were essentially redeeming the opportuinty that Isaac was deceived from giving him by Jacobs deceit. Interestingly they posed and possibly still pose as Jacob/Israel. "Turnabout is fair play" as some call it. It would not be odd in the least for Jacob to receive the rewards for his deeds. God favored Jacob no doubt, but He plays no favorites when it comes to sin especially those who swore an oath to a covenant not to.

 

[Karraster]

Another reflective point; the descendants of Esau were getting their chance to play the role as firstborn over Gods people. They had control of Gods City and His temple and were essentially redeeming the opportuinty that Isaac was deceived from giving him by Jacobs deceit. Interestingly they posed and possibly still pose as Jacob/Israel. "Turnabout is fair play" as some call it. It would not be odd in the least for Jacob to receive the rewards for his deeds. God favored Jacob no doubt, but He plays no favorites when it comes to sin especially those who swore an oath to a covenant not to.

Thanks for bringing that up. I must say, that aspect of scriptures I've not studied very much. As to who is who today? I really do not know, I hear different opinions all very interesting, but do not know enough to talk about it much. It would be good to know.
Sin definitely has consequences. Jacob/Israel was a schemer and deceiver, but he finished well, didn't he? What did Israel say when he met Pharaoh? "...few and evil have been the days of the years of my life..." Yep he was a conniver, and he got connived!

Oh, and about what law was Peter referring? I wasn't thinking of Acts, if that's what you meant, then yeah, I think he was referring to man made laws that he and his fathers were not able to bear.

 

[SimpleGardner]

Thanks for bringing that up. I must say, that aspect of scriptures I've not studied very much. As to who is who today? I really do not know, I hear different opinions all very interesting, but do not know enough to talk about it much. It would be good to know.
Sin definitely has consequences. Jacob/Israel was a schemer and deceiver, but he finished well, didn't he? What did Israel say when he met Pharaoh? "...few and evil have been the days of the years of my life..." Yep he was a conniver, and he got connived!

Oh, and about what law was Peter referring? I wasn't thinking of Acts, if that's what you meant, then yeah, I think he was referring to man made laws that he and his fathers were not able to bear.

Yes, he did finish well! It is a heartwarming transformation to read. I do not know who is who either, and yes, it would be good to know. I have read my share of assertions on the subject. I Have even looked for them, but there are some dark corners of hatred publishing them. I prefer the more "matter of fact" accounts. Similar to Jacob, who was recently given Israel as a new name/title where his sentiments were;
Gen 33:10 NIV "No, please!" said Jacob. "If I have found favor in your eyes, accept this gift from me. For to see your face is like seeing the face of God, now that you have received me favorably.

There is a way to use knowledge to "hate" those whose rule as less than admirable, but there is also a way to see those less than admirable rulers as Gods judgements and simply reflect within. I've heard the term "hounds of heaven" that seems to speak to the never failing hand of our Heavenly Father to "bring us to see". I continually see the example of the Southern Kingdom of Judah at the time of Jeremiah. There they were guilty of many sins, one being not allowing the land its regular 7 year rests. Jeremiah was sent to tell them that God was using Babylon to judge them for this and that they MUST accept the wooden yoke of tribute that they were under as punishment for their sins. Against Gods warnings through Jeremiah they threw off the "wooden" yoke and as warned, God put them under the "iron" yoke of exile from the land. They had violated the sabbath rest of the land for 490 years so they were literally removed from the land for 70 years and the land received its fallow rest for 70 consecutive years. After which they were permitted to return. Of course their priests left their temples for that 70 years and returned with Babylonian ways.

When a small group were permitted to return to Palestine to reestablish the Temple under Ezra, I often wonder what the "mixed bag" of Israelite Priests and Babylonian Pharisees was like, Like today we all recognize the corruption within the "religious sects" that represent "Christianity" today. But were they seemingly powerless to "right the ship" as it was leaning, similar to our dilemma today?

I have read that each and every Seminary within our country was "bought out" or "subverted" from the inside by the early 1900's Once under the control of the "Adversarial/Babylonian/Pharisaical" order they incrementally altered the doctrines their early founders established to what we have today which for all but their titles resembles secularism. That said, I also wonder if those who kick against the Law so much today are actually Talmudic converts. The one goal of all the Talmud is to de-establish the Torah and establish the Anti-Torah Talmud. Perhaps we will never get a straight answer as all forms of deception are authorized under the Talmud. The Talmud literally reverses every one of the Ten Commandments and some say it's goal was to reverse every one of the decrees in the Book of the Law as well. Certainly every one of the Ordained Feasts has been supplanted with a Babylonian holiday. Even the original seventh day Sabbath was replaced with a Babylonian "sun" day sabbath. These are all Talmudic alterations of Gods Torah. Incremental and cunningly substituted with familiar names so as not to arouse the suspicions of the masses.

One at a time, each of the Commandments of God were attacked by the Pharisaical Babylonian zealots. This took centuries to accomplish and as of today is still under way. "Judaizers" was a term employed by those intent on ridding all of religion of any vestiges of the Torah. I read a book on calandation several years ago and it's historical research indicated that the millions of murders between the 300's to 500's when Conatantine was establishing his "Babylonian Christianity" were to eradicate the then true Sabbath keepers who refused the "New Babylonian" order of sabbath keeping. If any of these are true it would certainly be in keeping with the satanic claim;

Isa 14:13-14 NIV You said in your heart, "I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God; I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly, on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain. (14) I will ascend above the tops of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High."

So, again, perhaps the slanderous aggression we experience against any who comment favorable on the Torah are coming from Talmudists posing as "God fearing Christians". I have noticed others finding them eerily similar to that which they accuse others of , that being Pharisees! I do not sense any brotherly kindness, and if I do it is always preempted by anger and hostility! Again, no way to prove this, but it is certainly something to keep an eye out for.

Sincerely

SG

 

[SimpleGardner]

Thanks for bringing that up. I must say, that aspect of scriptures I've not studied very much. As to who is who today? I really do not know, I hear different opinions all very interesting, but do not know enough to talk about it much. It would be good to know.
Sin definitely has consequences. Jacob/Israel was a schemer and deceiver, but he finished well, didn't he? What did Israel say when he met Pharaoh? "...few and evil have been the days of the years of my life..." Yep he was a conniver, and he got connived!

Oh, and about what law was Peter referring? I wasn't thinking of Acts, if that's what you meant, then yeah, I think he was referring to man made laws that he and his fathers were not able to bear.

Yes, the man made laws, the despicable Talmudic laws. They were the Laws Jesus sought to eliminate and to reestablish the Loving Torah Order for His people.

 

[NayborBear]

It was quite the political climate. Some would say, "the perfect storm".

7 Then the chief priests and the Pharisees called a meeting of the Sanhedrin.
“What are we accomplishing?” they asked. “Here is this man performing many signs. 48 If we let him go on like this, everyone will believe in him, and then the Romans will come and take away both our temple and our nation.”

49 Then one of them, named Caiaphas, who was high priest that year, spoke up, “You know nothing at all! 50 You do not realize that it is better for you that one man die for the people than that the whole nation perish.”

51 He did not say this on his own, but as high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the Jewish nation, 52 and not only for that nation but also for the scattered children of God, to bring them together and make them one. 53 So from that day on they plotted to take his life.

Some would rather make light, and say (some 2,000 years in hindsight) Yeah? Well? God's perfect timing, and "let it go at that", and go about onward with their lives. Not giving it a second thought.

People have a habit concerning His-Story, in a not being able to see the forest for the trees, so to speak, in where one is in regards to God's perfect timing.
That is, until the blessed event/s are in their rear view mirror.

 

[Grandpa]

2 Peter 1:4-7
First, no matter which version you read, Peter tells the reader to put forth every effort to be godly. This directly contradicts your teaching of "no human effort" required or allowed. But what is "godliness" vs. "ungodliness"?

2 Peter 1:4-8
4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Kind of looks like fruit of the Spirit, doesn't it? Wonder why you didn't recognize them?

First, heres what Paul says;
Galatians 3:2-3
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

Then Peter pretty much tells you right from the start;
2 Peter 1:3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

Did you miss that part?


I'll ask you the very simple question I asked one of the other legalists.

Will your effort to perfect yourself be better than Christ perfecting you? Do you think Peter and Paul are saying that your effort to perfect yourself is better than Christ perfecting you?

That's what you are trying to make the scripture say. They don't say that. But that is what is called wrestling with scripture. You don't understand what they say nor can you because you think your effort at making yourself godly actually makes you godly.

There is no difference between that and working at the law.

It obviously takes a LOT of work to abide in Christ and trust that He will perfect you better than you can perfect yourself. How will you know unless you try? Once you come to the end of yourself you will have to call out and trust in the Lord. Then you will see first hand where your blessing comes from. Hint; It is not from your effort.

2 Peter 2:4-8

Next, no matter which version you read, Peter shares examples of ungodly people being judged over and over again by Yah. He then defines who the ungodly are. They are the LAWLESS. Peter says ungodly people commit lawless deeds. Elder Peter says the ungodly are not law-keepers. He says lawless conduct = depraved conduct, like the people at Sodom and Gomorrah. Sins are lawless deeds.

Lawless doesn't just apply to people who have absolute contempt for the law. It applies to people who attempt to obey their own imagination of what they THINK the law says but actually DON'T obey the Real Law.

2 Peter 2:9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:
The unjust would be lawless in your eyes, yes?

Here's what Paul says;
Galatians 3:11-12
11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

This simply re-inforces what I have been telling you. Those who work at the law in their own imagination and call themselves "law-keepers" are deceived. No man is justified by the law in the sight of God.

The Just, The Godly, Live by Faith.

2 Peter 2:12-17
Again, no matter which version you read, Peter ties lawlessness with wickedness. He also compares walking "the straight way" against those who "live in error". Peter says the lawless have left the straight way and live in error of wickedness, and entice those just escaping (i.e. new converts) to also live in error. Peter says these lawless ones blaspheme in matters they don't understand. So far, it would seem Peter is talking against folks who believe what you teach about the law.

2 Peter 2:12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

Speak evil of the things that they don't understand. Such as calling those who abide in Christ "lawless".

2 Peter 2:13 And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you;

Here is what Paul says about Righteousness;
Galatians 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

2 Peter 2:15 Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;

Here is what Paul says;
Galatians 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

2 Peter 2:17-19
17 These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.
18 For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.
19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.

Here is what Paul says;
Galatians 5:4-5
4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.

2 Peter 3:11-12 & 14
Again, Peter repeats his instruction to put forth every effort to be without spot or blemish (unlike the lawless). Again, this contradicts the teaching of "no human effort" required or allowed. And finally, we have the passage in question.

Will you continue in the error of the wicked and think that it is YOUR effort and YOUR work that will make you be found without Spot or Blemish before God?

Galatians 3:2-3
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

I suppose if you actually understood scripture you would already understand these by now. It can't be the first time you are seeing them...

Word for word, no matter the version, Peter, who was an elder of the early church over Paul, is clear in what he means: Ignorant and unstable people distort Paul's words to teach others to live in lawlessness (i.e. "without the law"), and it is an error of wickedness and will lead to destruction, so BE ON YOUR GUARD for those "enticing" people.

This error was occurring in the first century and it's still happening today.

Your last sentence is ABSOLUTELY true.

Ignorant and unstable people distort Paul and Peters words to teach others to live in lawlessness (i.e. in their imagined obedience to the law ) and it is THE error of wickedness and absolutely will lead to destruction.

What is PETER's own SOLUTION for The error of the wicked? For the error of the lawless?

It wasn't the contradiction of Paul.
2 Peter 3:18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

What does Paul say?;
Galatians 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

 

[DeighAnn]

2 Peter 1:3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

What hath HIS Divine Power given us. The Living Word, The Bible, through many years and many men, His divine power given, with all the love and advice and instructions and laws, and prophecies, and hymns, and histories, that pertain unto life and godliness through the knowledge of Him that hath called us to glory and virtue.

 

[NayborBear]

Yes, he did finish well! It is a heartwarming transformation to read. I do not know who is who either, and yes, it would be good to know. I have read my share of assertions on the subject. I Have even looked for them, but there are some dark corners of hatred publishing them. I prefer the more "matter of fact" accounts. Similar to Jacob, who was recently given Israel as a new name/title where his sentiments were;
Gen 33:10 NIV "No, please!" said Jacob. "If I have found favor in your eyes, accept this gift from me. For to see your face is like seeing the face of God, now that you have received me favorably.

There is a way to use knowledge to "hate" those whose rule as less than admirable, but there is also a way to see those less than admirable rulers as Gods judgements and simply reflect within. I've heard the term "hounds of heaven" that seems to speak to the never failing hand of our Heavenly Father to "bring us to see". I continually see the example of the Southern Kingdom of Judah at the time of Jeremiah. There they were guilty of many sins, one being not allowing the land its regular 7 year rests. Jeremiah was sent to tell them that God was using Babylon to judge them for this and that they MUST accept the wooden yoke of tribute that they were under as punishment for their sins. Against Gods warnings through Jeremiah they threw off the "wooden" yoke and as warned, God put them under the "iron" yoke of exile from the land. They had violated the sabbath rest of the land for 490 years so they were literally removed from the land for 70 years and the land received its fallow rest for 70 consecutive years. After which they were permitted to return. Of course their priests left their temples for that 70 years and returned with Babylonian ways.

When a small group were permitted to return to Palestine to reestablish the Temple under Ezra, I often wonder what the "mixed bag" of Israelite Priests and Babylonian Pharisees was like, Like today we all recognize the corruption within the "religious sects" that represent "Christianity" today. But were they seemingly powerless to "right the ship" as it was leaning, similar to our dilemma today?

I have read that each and every Seminary within our country was "bought out" or "subverted" from the inside by the early 1900's Once under the control of the "Adversarial/Babylonian/Pharisaical" order they incrementally altered the doctrines their early founders established to what we have today which for all but their titles resembles secularism. That said, I also wonder if those who kick against the Law so much today are actually Talmudic converts. The one goal of all the Talmud is to de-establish the Torah and establish the Anti-Torah Talmud. Perhaps we will never get a straight answer as all forms of deception are authorized under the Talmud. The Talmud literally reverses every one of the Ten Commandments and some say it's goal was to reverse every one of the decrees in the Book of the Law as well. Certainly every one of the Ordained Feasts has been supplanted with a Babylonian holiday. Even the original seventh day Sabbath was replaced with a Babylonian "sun" day sabbath. These are all Talmudic alterations of Gods Torah. Incremental and cunningly substituted with familiar names so as not to arouse the suspicions of the masses.

One at a time, each of the Commandments of God were attacked by the Pharisaical Babylonian zealots. This took centuries to accomplish and as of today is still under way. "Judaizers" was a term employed by those intent on ridding all of religion of any vestiges of the Torah. I read a book on calandation several years ago and it's historical research indicated that the millions of murders between the 300's to 500's when Conatantine was establishing his "Babylonian Christianity" were to eradicate the then true Sabbath keepers who refused the "New Babylonian" order of sabbath keeping. If any of these are true it would certainly be in keeping with the satanic claim;

Isa 14:13-14 NIV You said in your heart, "I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God; I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly, on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain. (14) I will ascend above the tops of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High."

So, again, perhaps the slanderous aggression we experience against any who comment favorable on the Torah are coming from Talmudists posing as "God fearing Christians". I have noticed others finding them eerily similar to that which they accuse others of , that being Pharisees! I do not sense any brotherly kindness, and if I do it is always preempted by anger and hostility! Again, no way to prove this, but it is certainly something to keep an eye out for.

Sincerely

SG

Good mornin' to ya SG

I dunno where ya heard that term, "hounds of heaven." But, is an interesting way in the describing God's way of implementing, what today is called "Tough Love!" Usually, in regards to parents, or parent, as is seen much too often these last days, in the teaching, or the learning of, or in some cases being learnt DISCIPLINE/S.

God has many means and measures that He implements in regards to His children "CALLED, by His Name."
Many, of these "hounds" are Priests After The Order Of Melchizadek. That work "behind the scenes" within the minds and hearts of ALL humankind.
After all, it is God's will (which one could correctly refer to as Grace) that ALL would come unto repentance. Is it not? Hence? "The Hounds!"

What these hounds do is relentlessly try and turn guide, and lead one to?
Isaiah 28
9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

And this goes all the way from one who is not, or does not even believe. And? When this "tough love" takes, and is NOT resisted, or viewed as "evil?" We get what God says to Isaiah above. Where the need for more assistance within the believer is needed, and/or warranted? More hounds are sent. Is this similar to that which the Lord of the Harvest, and His "Harvesting Angels", do? Only ABSOLUTELY! Save, for that which the hounds do? Is after the Harvesting Angels have plucked one up "TARES AND ALL." Bringing it unto "The Harvester.

It is here neighbors and friends, where "Christendom" throws GOD and believers "under the bus", in causing them to believe that this "event" concerning the Lord of the Harvest, occurs after one has died in the flesh.
And, in so doing have put themselves, and their followers in this "Trick Bag!"
Isaiah 28
14 Wherefore hear the word of the Lord, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem.
15 Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:


So? What happens, is this!
Isaiah 28
12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing(Jesus Christ): yet they would not hear.
13 But (so) the word of the Lord was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

Does this sound eerily familiar to this?
Matthew 7
13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

And, even more earnestly here?
Luke 13
24 STRIVE to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

How many believers in Christendom do not strive? Is it because once they have been gifted salvation by faith through grace alone, they have found ALL they have sought?

 

[SimpleGardner]

Thanks for bringing that up. I must say, that aspect of scriptures I've not studied very much. As to who is who today? I really do not know, I hear different opinions all very interesting, but do not know enough to talk about it much. It would be good to know.
Sin definitely has consequences. Jacob/Israel was a schemer and deceiver, but he finished well, didn't he? What did Israel say when he met Pharaoh? "...few and evil have been the days of the years of my life..." Yep he was a conniver, and he got connived!

Oh, and about what law was Peter referring? I wasn't thinking of Acts, if that's what you meant, then yeah, I think he was referring to man made laws that he and his fathers were not able to bear.

Reread my long reply and found some of it confusing. I was thinking of the "seekers after smooth things" Isa 30:10 and the Qumran texts. There was a conflict between the Essene communities of Beleivers and those who were the "Givers of smooth interpretations" of the Law. Seemingly directed to Pharisees who watered down the Law, even negated it. It was quite an uprising. I think it was referred to as the "Zadokite Admonition." They referred to those who listened to and followed the "man of scoffing," or "spouter of lies," as those whowere given smooth interpretations. I think I was mixing thoughts of that historical detail in what I wrote. My apologies/

 

[Grandpa]

What hath HIS Divine Power given us. The Living Word, The Bible, through many years and many men, His divine power given, with all the love and advice and instructions and laws, and prophecies, and hymns, and histories, that pertain unto life and godliness through the knowledge of Him that hath called us to glory and virtue.

That's the same error that the Lord Jesus pointed out to the Pharisees.

John 5:39-40
39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

The scripture can't give you Life. The scripture can't give you godliness. The scripture can't give you Salvation.

Only the Lord Jesus Christ can give these things.

 

[NayborBear]

2 Peter 1:4-8
4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Kind of looks like fruit of the Spirit, doesn't it? Wonder why you didn't recognize them?

First, heres what Paul says;
Galatians 3:2-3
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

Then Peter pretty much tells you right from the start;
2 Peter 1:3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

Did you miss that part?


I'll ask you the very simple question I asked one of the other legalists.

Will your effort to perfect yourself be better than Christ perfecting you? Do you think Peter and Paul are saying that your effort to perfect yourself is better than Christ perfecting you?

That's what you are trying to make the scripture say. They don't say that. But that is what is called wrestling with scripture. You don't understand what they say nor can you because you think your effort at making yourself godly actually makes you godly.

There is no difference between that and working at the law.

It obviously takes a LOT of work to abide in Christ and trust that He will perfect you better than you can perfect yourself. How will you know unless you try? Once you come to the end of yourself you will have to call out and trust in the Lord. Then you will see first hand where your blessing comes from. Hint; It is not from your effort.



Lawless doesn't just apply to people who have absolute contempt for the law. It applies to people who attempt to obey their own imagination of what they THINK the law says but actually DON'T obey the Real Law.

2 Peter 2:9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:
The unjust would be lawless in your eyes, yes?

Here's what Paul says;
Galatians 3:11-12
11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

This simply re-inforces what I have been telling you. Those who work at the law in their own imagination and call themselves "law-keepers" are deceived. No man is justified by the law in the sight of God.

The Just, The Godly, Live by Faith.


2 Peter 2:12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

Speak evil of the things that they don't understand. Such as calling those who abide in Christ "lawless".

2 Peter 2:13 And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you;

Here is what Paul says about Righteousness;
Galatians 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

2 Peter 2:15 Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;

Here is what Paul says;
Galatians 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

2 Peter 2:17-19
17 These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.
18 For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.
19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.

Here is what Paul says;
Galatians 5:4-5
4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.


Will you continue in the error of the wicked and think that it is YOUR effort and YOUR work that will make you be found without Spot or Blemish before God?

Galatians 3:2-3
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

I suppose if you actually understood scripture you would already understand these by now. It can't be the first time you are seeing them...

Your last sentence is ABSOLUTELY true.

Ignorant and unstable people distort Paul and Peters words to teach others to live in lawlessness (i.e. in their imagined obedience to the law ) and it is THE error of wickedness and absolutely will lead to destruction.

What is PETER's own SOLUTION for The error of the wicked? For the error of the lawless?

It wasn't the contradiction of Paul.
2 Peter 3:18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

What does Paul say?;
Galatians 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Herein lies the "rub", as I, and others (I think) see it, Grandpa.
Christendom, in general, has accepted Jesus of Nazareth as Lord and Savior, High Priest and Kinsmen Redeemer. But, to greater, and lessor extents? REJECTED He who SENT Jesus of Nazareth. By their downright refusal to go onward TO the Father that sent Jesus!

One side is saying Jesus, Jesus, Jesus!
The other side is saying Jesus and His Father! Jesus and His Father!

One side is rejecting the WHOLE GOVERNMENT of the Kingdom, that Jesus CARRIES, on His shoulder.
The other side does not. And, at least in my case, and others as well (I think), are striving in the telling of that, or those things REQUIRED to "enter" into this government.

One side is "boasting AGAINST the branches!"

The other side REALIZES that which COULD happen, should "wild olive trees" REJECT "THE ROOT!"

Consider the "Days of Noah!"
Or? Likewise? To put things more currently?
Consider the election of Donald Trump!
Just as in the days of Noah? NOBODY, and I mean NOBODY EVEN THOUGHT Trump could EVER be elected!
Nobody THOUGHT God would flood the earth either!
Then, it started to rain.


(continued next post)

 

[NayborBear]

Just as in the last earth/heaven age, nobody ever thought God could, or WOULD ever END it!

Genesis 1
2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

One would think that that would have taught the adversary a lesson. Yes?
The "Garden of Eden Incident!"
It didn't!

So God, brought about that which we call the "Flood of Noah."

One would think THAT would teach the adversary a lesson. Yes?

That didn't either!

Bring on Abraham, Issac, and Jacob! Natural "branches." The "Root?" Being God!

One would think THIS would stop the adversary. Yes?

It didn't!

Branches were broken off!

Bring on Jesus of Nazareth, in the eventual, but not inevitable "grafting IN" of the Gentiles!

One would think this would stop the adversary. Yes?

Guess what? It's not!

What is happening, is we are seeing the difference/s between "Priests of Jesus Christ", verses "Priests of God AND Jesus Christ!" As the "FULLNESS of the Gentiles", is coming nigh!
And, I've NOTHING AGAINST Priests of Jesus Christ!
Save their BOASTING AGAINST THE BRANCHES!
Because these Priests of Christ, have become "wise in their own conceits."
Thus fearing they also be "cut off."

Sadly, to say, that should this come to pass?
Genesis 1
2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

Making all the efforts being made now?

Like the author of some novel that comes against a "mental block" and can't continue?
Just TOSSES it in the "round file", and starts over again!

Just as Jesus told Paul, "Stop kicking AGAINST the goads?"
Priests of Christ? Stop KICKING against the fulfilling of Prophecy! And, let it continue! PLEASE!!!!!

As we can read over and over again? Just as the God tossed away "versions" of His-Story? Doing a "rewrite?"
Don't think He won't do it again!

 

[Yahshua]

I'll ask you the very simple question I asked one of the other legalists.

Will your effort to perfect yourself be better than Christ perfecting you? Do you think Peter and Paul are saying that your effort to perfect yourself is better than Christ perfecting you?

First, notice how you keep having to mix in Paul's letter to make Peter's letter say what you want it to say, when that's literally the "twisting" Peter warned about.


Perfection (to become the perfect image of Christ) is the process of sanctification.

Perfection is not justification. Justification is cleansing from sins.

You must understand this difference to understand what Peter and Paul and James are talking about in each of their respective letters.

Paul's letter to the galatians is discussing justification. Justification. Justification. Not sanctification. You keep quoting the galatians passage literally with the word "justified" in there and yet you keep missing it.

Peter's letter in question is discussing sanctification (growing in godliness; holiness), which is the believer's burden to make every effort in. He says it twice in his letter: "make every effort"..."make every effort". And when we sin (i.e. break a law) we go to the throne to confess and Christ cleanses/justifies us again (because there's nothing in the law that can do that for us).

So to answer your question; my effort to perfect myself will be EQUAL to Christ perfecting me, because that's what grace is: the Almighty's divine instruction from Christ, placed in me to FOLLOW, to live in godliness (Titus 2:12).

Christ works on the inside of me, on my heart. And *I* must work on the outside of me, on my walk.

The promise of "Christ's holy spirit in you" was NEVER a promise of "Christ doing the work of your obedience for you". Never. Search all of the scriptures and you will never find that promise made.


Yah does nothing unless he first reveals it to his servants the prophets (amos 3:7).


If you can find your promise anywhere...absolutely anywhere...I will definitely consider it. But if you can't find the promise of "Christ doing the work of your obedience in you, for you" anywhere in the "OT" then it was never a promise made by the Almighty, and Yah has not done it. Yah doesn't fulfill promises he never made.

The promise you WILL find in scripture is "Christ's Holy Spirit in you changing your heart to make you WANT to obey". That promise is in Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Ezekiel 36:27. Two or more witnesses establish truth. That was the promise, no more, no less. You yourself still must make every effort to obey once your heart is changed. The apostles knew this.

Grace is the WANT; the talent of gold that the king gifts to his servants and expects them to put the effort/work into making grow (Matthew 25:14). Obedience is the effort/work expected by the servant that makes it grace grow.

"GROW IN GRACE and in the KNOWING of our master and savior..."

"...Unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ."

Perfection.

----

This is what Peter's phrase means when he says "the ignorant and unstable twist Paul's words". Those who don't know iron-clad truths like Amos 3:7, Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Ezekiel 36:27 unwittingly twist Paul's words to their own pending doom, and then teach others the same error of lawlessness, causing whole crops of people to be lost.

There's the promise never to destroy the world again by water...

There's the promise of being an heir through faith like Abraham, being a blessing to the world...

There's the promise of becoming a royal nation of priests through obedience to the law...

There's the promise of David not wanting for a man to sit on his throne...

There's the promise of putting Yah's laws in one's heart, circumcising it to move one (i.e. make one want) to obey his laws...

And scripture says each one of these promises are perpetual/everlasting.

So if you can find the promise made by Yah anywhere in the Torah & the Prophets that says "Christ (or the Spirit of Yah...or grace) will do the work of your obedience in you, for you", then I will consider it.


The promise is the foundation of everything we're discussing.

The promise is everything.