Did Jesus ever tell us that we no longer need to keep the law of Moses?

[eternally-gratefull]

You didn't answer my question; did you get circumcised or not? Circumcision doesn't have to be done at the eighth day; it can be done at a later date.

You didn't give me any example of ordinance that you keep. When I said "and others don't (keep)" my only intention was to make clear that I was referring to commandments of God that Law-keepers think are still effective while other Christians (non Law-keepers) think that are no longer effective. Ex.: Law-keepers think Christians must keep the Sabbath while non Law-keepers think otherwise.

My questions about lists of Mitzvot are intended to get clarification from you; they are an opportunity for you to get your point across.

I like what paul said.

Galatians 5:3
And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law

Galatians 6:13
For not even those who are circumcised keep the law......

 

[Yahshua]

Thanks, Deade, but I don't understand why Law keepers are so reluctant to give us a list of effective ordinances. With such a list in hand it would be easier for us to understand what you guys teach.

Even back in the time of Moses when he first gave the list, not everything applied to every person's situation. That was one of my earlier points last week. So when asked to provide a list that everyone is to follow today, the question doesn't compute because the list already exists. Just read it and see what applies to you and your situation and then do those things.

...but the question is still putting the cart before the horse...

After the receipt of the Holy Spirit, the intention of the Holy Spirit is to move the person to love Yah will ALL of their heart, soul, mind and strength. That doesn't mean what the world has redefined love to mean (i.e. "a high level of emotion and affection for..."). It means to put in energy, to give your all, your maximum effort to please Yah, even at your own expense (self-sacrifice).

...because (with the Holy Spirit in you) you WANT to do that. You want please Yah as much as humanly possible...which is specifically what "the holy spirit inside" was prophesied to do from ancient time.

...to provide the "WANT to"; that very desire. The unction. It's the Messiah's very own Spirit and that's all HE wanted to do when he was here in the flesh.

This was the missing piece of the puzzle that caused Israel and Judah to fail to obey. They lacked the desire.

The Messiah's very own Spirit inside of a person will cause that person to desire to do everything the Messiah's did. It can't not do that. It is written that such is what the promised Spirit was going to do once it was given.

With it, a person will not not want to do all that's in their power to do to obey. This is what Paul explains when he talks about the Spirit of Christ in Romans.

This is the mystery of godliness finally revealed: Christ in you.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Even back in the time of Moses when he first gave the list, not everything applied to every person's situation. That was one of my earlier points last week. So when asked to provide a list that everyone is to follow today, the question doesn't compute because the list already exists. Just read it and see what applies to you and your situation and then do those things.

...but the question is still putting the cart before the horse...

After the receipt of the Holy Spirit, the intention of the Holy Spirit is to move the person to love Yah will ALL of their heart, soul, mind and strength. That doesn't mean what the world has redefined love to mean (i.e. "a high level of emotion and affection for..."). It means to put in energy, to give your all, your maximum effort to please Yah, even at your own expense (self-sacrifice).

...because (with the Holy Spirit in you) you WANT to do that. You want please Yah as much as humanly possible...which is specifically what "the holy spirit inside" was prophesied to do from ancient time.

...to provide the "WANT to"; that very desire. The unction. It's the Messiah's very own Spirit and that's all HE wanted to do when he was here in the flesh.

This was the missing piece of the puzzle that caused Israel and Judah to fail to obey. They lacked the desire.

The Messiah's very own Spirit inside of a person will cause that person to desire to do everything the Messiah's did. It can't not do that. It is written that such is what the promised Spirit was going to do once it was given.

With it, a person will not not want to do all that's in their power to do to obey. This is what Paul explains when he talks about the Spirit of Christ in Romans.

This is the mystery of godliness finally revealed: Christ in you.

Galatians 5:3
And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law.

James 2:10
For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all.

Can you interpret what the term “Whole law” means in these passages?

 

[Dan_473]

They love to water down the mosaic law. Then scream at people that try to show them how they are taking the law ouyt of context as hating Gods law.

They prove they hate gods laws just by thei mere fact they water it down. And to not take it as written. And as required (obey every word)

If a person says that they keep the law of Moses, and by that they mean that they keep the letter of some of the laws written down by Moses, yet what they actually keep is a modified version of those laws, then they aren't actually doing what Moses wrote down in the wilderness.

If a person says they are led by the Spirit to keep a modified version of the law, or that they read the law and follow its intention, then I say Great, that's what I do too!

I see the intention of the entire law talked about here
Galatians 5: 14. For the whole law is fulfilled in one word, in this: "You shall love your neighbor as yourself."

So if someone asks me for a list of what commandments I keep, there it is in one verse!

 

[SimpleGardner]

one suspicion that I have is that those who say we are to keep some portion of the written law of Moses are to some degree spiritually unhealthy.

One thing your doctor might ask you when assessing your physical condition is
Have you had a sudden unintended weight loss recently?
That's because there's a whole host of physical issues that can cause that sudden weight loss.

Similarly, I believe that healthy believers earnestly seek regular meetings with other believers. If a person says they don't, yet they feel that they in some way receive special knowledge from God, it raises suspicions in me.

Of course you don't have to answer. But again, if a person is unwilling to talk about how the views they put forward on the internet are actually played out in their daily lives, again it raises suspicions in me.

I am trying to determine if you are saying that regular church fellowship is the standard you would use to assuage any suspicions. If so then why?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

If a person says that they keep the law of Moses, and by that they mean that they keep the letter of some of the laws written down by Moses, yet what they actually keep is a modified version of those laws, then they aren't actually doing what Moses wrote down in the wilderness.

If a person says they are led by the Spirit to keep a modified version of the law, or that they read the law and follow its intention, then I say Great, that's what I do too!

I see the intention of the entire law talked about here
Galatians 5: 14. For the whole law is fulfilled in one word, in this: "You shall love your neighbor as yourself."

So if someone asks me for a list of what commandments I keep, there it is in one verse!

Amen

That’s how we keep
Commands

The law itself was given to prove to us how sinful we really are to point us to gods redemption. That’s all

Love is what fulfills it.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Its odd when someone claims they follow god and love his command yet fail to admit gods command of assembling together is an option not an actual Command. Anyone else agree?

 

[SimpleGardner]

You didn't answer my question; did you get circumcised or not? Circumcision doesn't have to be done at the eighth day; it can be done at a later date.

You didn't give me any example of ordinance that you keep. When I said "and others don't (keep)" my only intention was to make clear that I was referring to commandments of God that Law-keepers think are still effective while other Christians (non Law-keepers) think that are no longer effective. Ex.: Law-keepers think Christians must keep the Sabbath while non Law-keepers think otherwise.

My questions about lists of Mitzvot are intended to get clarification from you; they are an opportunity for you to get your point across.

In speaking to circumcision wouldn't it be better to ask it like;

I am circumcised, are you? or I am not circumcised, are you?

As far as what commandments I keep, same thing, these are the commandments I keep, and the ones I do not keep, and you?

 

[SimpleGardner]

I know that you were talking to Marcelo, but I disagree very strongly that it is similar to asking someone to write down a list of etiquette that they practice within their family and friends and church members.

The law that Moses wrote down in the wilderness was just that, a set of written laws. If a person says that we are to keep the letter of some of those commandments, it wouldn't be too hard, it seems to me, to just go through what Moses wrote down, and highlight the parts one feels one is to keep today.

Then just copy the highlighted parts onto a separate sheet of paper, or your favorite word processing program.

I am not so naive to think you are not setting a trap Dan. I have read many of the strategies and tactics that many of the RT adherants follow. They are published as warnings to sincere Christians. I never beleived there could be such malice in Christian circles until I met many who practice them. I am not one to condemn, but I am definitly one to call it out. Your tactics are to constantly force someone in one of your doctrinal corners and then bludgeon them. Amazing! There is righteousness that is underpinned by humility and there is right ness that is underpinned by pride. I sense a sort of glee when you feel you have beat someone down, while many others on here sincerely concerned by your obvious hostility are hoping to lead you out of what is fueling it. How can you be? Dunno, but we have hashed and rehashed doctrinal points enough to satisfy any blood on my hands it think.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I am not so naive to think you are not setting a trap Dan. I have read many of the strategies and tactics that many of the RT adherants follow. They are published as warnings to sincere Christians. I never beleived there could be such malice in Christian circles until I met many who practice them. I am not one to condemn, but I am definitly one to call it out. Your tactics are to constantly force someone in one of your doctrinal corners and then bludgeon them. Amazing! There is righteousness that is underpinned by humility and there is right ness that is underpinned by pride. I sense a sort of glee when you feel you have beat someone down, while many others on here sincerely concerned by your obvious hostility are hoping to lead you out of what is fueling it. How can you be? Dunno, but we have hashed and rehashed doctrinal points enough to satisfy any blood on my hands it think.

Ie. You listen to what men tell you instead of just trying to figure out what people are actually saying

That’s for finally bringing the truth out

I pray I am never so insecure in my faith I have to worry about people trapping me

 

[Karraster]

Amen Karraster and thanks for the affirmation. Sin is transgression of the law. Love covers a multitude of sins. Through it's self sacrificing mercy we will not sin and through it's forgiveness we will not judge in vengeance and hold a grudge to those whom sin against us. For on this; the Love of God and our fellow brothers and sisters hangs, hinges, is supported all the Law and the Prophets, Gods Holy Word, His will in our lives; life.

May I ask is there any significance to your screen name? I assume it is from the Greek word for Grace, Charis.

I am thinking Grace container. I am probably wrong but I like it because it fits who we are as Christians. We are filled with God's grace to be graceful to others. Grace for grace!

Amen! If we cannot love our brothers/sisters who we can see, (well in this case who we can speak with online)
how can we love our Father in heaven who we cannot see?
For if a person does not love his brother, whom he has seen, then he cannot love God, whom he has not seen. 1 John 4:20 (CSB

The prophets of old had a simple message, "Repent". The gospels say "believe on Jesus/Yahshua and keep His Word" Go and sin no more, repent! How can you call Him Lord and do not what He says? That is the message. Our Messiah died for us and is the first fruits of many brethren....For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.

We are conforming to His image daily, aren't we? When we strive to be like Him and do His will. Yes. It's a blessing and privilege to communicate with some here, and there are several who reflect our Savior, I count you as one Lightbearer. The good news/the gospel is, we have hope of resurrection and life eternal with our King!

My screen name is a combination of my names, first name Karen. Even so, thanks for associating grace to me, I like it and try to live up to it.

 

[DeighAnn]

Not only that but He said, "Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."

And what does our Lord and Savior Jesus mean by least in heaven?

"For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven."
(Matt 5:19,20)

Do you understand this "the least" to mean the breaking the Laws given to Moses by God? When I read those 5 laws Jesus expounded on they got way more clear and intense. (Really open up my knowledge of the "shadow of things" comments). What was once a just a physical law now was made not only physical but "mental and emotional" law as well, bringing the "thoughts and intents" to the forefront, along side the "actions" with no excuses possible as now written inside and on the flesh man. And do you think I would be going to far if I were to make a statement to the effect of "To deny the law of the kingdom of God is to deny Christ?"

 

[DeighAnn]

If the laws were taken from being written in stone to written upon our hearts and minds by Jesus, would the writing the ones written within each of us be like going against what Christ did? The ones that were written by Jesus can be found by anyone wanting to know them. It is just research through the scriptures. They would be the exact same for all of us. I am just saying if you want them written down, go find them and write them down. Don't ask someone else to do the work for you.

 

[Marcelo]

In speaking to circumcision wouldn't it be better to ask it like;

I am circumcised, are you? or I am not circumcised, are you?

As far as what commandments I keep, same thing, these are the commandments I keep, and the ones I do not keep, and you?

OK!

I am not circumcised; are you?

I don't observe the following ordinance: Do not eat fruit of a tree during its first three years (Lev. 19:23); do you?

 

[Dan_473]

I am trying to determine if you are saying that regular church fellowship is the standard you would use to assuage any suspicions. If so then why?

No it is not the standard, as in the only standard. It is a diagnostic tool, one among many.

It's just like if your doctor does a blood test and sees sugar that is much higher than normal. It could mean you have a medical problem, or maybe you just ate a bunch of candy bars before the blood test.

I've encountered other people, Christian brothers and sisters, here on these forums who say they keep some part of the law of Moses, the written law, but are extremely reluctant to talk about details of how they put it into practice in their daily lives. This seems to me to be a warning sign, a sign of possible danger that the person could be in.

We don't turn on a lamp, and then put a heavy blanket over it. As Christians, we want to let our light shine before people. You are here on an internet forum, as am I. You are talking about particular views that you have, but you seem unwilling to talk about how you put those views into practice in your daily life.

If you wish to ask me about how I put my views into practice, please do!

 

[SimpleGardner]

Do you understand this "the least" to mean the breaking the Laws given to Moses by God? When I read those 5 laws Jesus expounded on they got way more clear and intense. (Really open up my knowledge of the "shadow of things" comments). What was once a just a physical law now was made not only physical but "mental and emotional" law as well, bringing the "thoughts and intents" to the forefront, along side the "actions" with no excuses possible as now written inside and on the flesh man. And do you think I would be going to far if I were to make a statement to the effect of "To deny the law of the kingdom of God is to deny Christ?"

Hey DeighAnn,

To your question/point;

Joh 14:21 KJV He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

Even a man who just remains faithful to the two "greatest commandment" Note; not the only commandments, but the two greatest will by default be driven to a love for and desire to keep all of the Torah that The Holy Spirit impresses upon them!

Conversley the rest of your question, take a look at the inverse of John 14:21;

Joh 14:21 KJV He that (does not) have my commandments, and (does not) keep them, he it is that (does not) love me: and he that (does not) love me shall (not) be loved of my Father, and I will (not) love him, and will (not) manifest myself to him.

It is critical to recognize within ourselves that a leading indicator of hypocrisy is attacking and condemning others. God alleviated men of that responsibility is many places. But those who go about assaulting mens charcters are wearing a large sign.

Hope all is well.

 

[Dan_473]

Its odd when someone claims they follow god and love his command yet fail to admit gods command of assembling together is an option not an actual Command. Anyone else agree?

I think it's a sign of spiritual health when Christians desire to gather together physically with other believers on a regular basis.

If a person says they can't find any other like-minded people around them to meet with, then that could be a sign of the

Everyone is out of step with God except for me

way of thinking.

 

[Dan_473]

I am not so naive to think you are not setting a trap Dan. I have read many of the strategies and tactics that many of the RT adherants follow. They are published as warnings to sincere Christians. I never beleived there could be such malice in Christian circles until I met many who practice them. I am not one to condemn, but I am definitly one to call it out. Your tactics are to constantly force someone in one of your doctrinal corners and then bludgeon them. Amazing! There is righteousness that is underpinned by humility and there is right ness that is underpinned by pride. I sense a sort of glee when you feel you have beat someone down, while many others on here sincerely concerned by your obvious hostility are hoping to lead you out of what is fueling it. How can you be? Dunno, but we have hashed and rehashed doctrinal points enough to satisfy any blood on my hands it think.

I don't know what RT is.

Yes, I like to follow a point out to its conclusion, testing it with the sound of mind that God gives us as believers. If someone attempts to dodge a question, I will often ask it again, or ask them to clarify.

If engaging in a discussion with me is not edifying to you, then please stop.

And peace be with you!

 

[SimpleGardner]

OK!

I am not circumcised; are you?

I don't observe the following ordinance: Do not eat fruit of a tree during its first three years (Lev. 19:23); do you?

To your first question, that is personal. I will not answer it.

To your second question, the first three years of fruit off of a tree are not worth eating. Both the scriptures and the majority of fruit growers follow the practice of "circumcising" the small fruit that these early trees produce. Many studies have also concluded that these young fruits may contain an imbalance of nutrients from the trees immature root systems making them potentially harmful to eat.

In either case, whether leaving the fruit to grow causes future damage to the tree or to the eater it is a win win to simply pinch off the fruit for the first three fruiting years.

But since you do not keep that recommendation/courteous insight/admonition from God, then no one can ever say it was not your choice.

IMHO though it does seem unnecessarily obstinate.

Sincerely

SG

To delicious fruit!

 

[SimpleGardner]

No it is not the standard, as in the only standard. It is a diagnostic tool, one among many.

It's just like if your doctor does a blood test and sees sugar that is much higher than normal. It could mean you have a medical problem, or maybe you just ate a bunch of candy bars before the blood test.

I've encountered other people, Christian brothers and sisters, here on these forums who say they keep some part of the law of Moses, the written law, but are extremely reluctant to talk about details of how they put it into practice in their daily lives. This seems to me to be a warning sign, a sign of possible danger that the person could be in.

We don't turn on a lamp, and then put a heavy blanket over it. As Christians, we want to let our light shine before people. You are here on an internet forum, as am I. You are talking about particular views that you have, but you seem unwilling to talk about how you put those views into practice in your daily life.

If you wish to ask me about how I put my views into practice, please do!

Interesting....