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Not By Works
- Thread starter dcontroversal
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but saying "works do not matter" is something very very different than saying "it is not works by which we maintain salvation"
I agree completely 100% - we do not maintain our salvation by our works - that is preposterous!
But I will come out clearLy and say - WORKS DO MATTER - THEY ARE IMPORTANT - THEY BRING GLORY TO GOD!
You are absolutely, positively 100% correct. May we always glorify God together.
There is no light for one who partakes in works salvation. There was only light for one who partakes in works to glorify God.
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eternally-gratefull
Guest
If salvation is of works, then Jesus is not glorified. His death is meaningless. We can save ourselves.
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eternally-gratefull
Guest
When it comes to salvation. WORKS HAVE NO BEARING
You can not say that yuo do not believe works maintain salvation, then claim WORKS MATTER.
Remember, the context is salvation, If you bring works into the equation, and say they matter, YOU CLAIM works maintain salvation.
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eternally-gratefull
Guest
Be careful. When they put salvation and works in the same sentence, they are usually trying to take credit for self not God.
No, works for the cause of maintaining or gaining salvation do not give glory to Jesus.
They belittle His gift.
He gets no glory for trying to pay for what He has already purchased and given to me freely in His mercy.
Jesus has a perfect righteousness He put on my account by grace through faith.
The value exceeds not only my cost but the cost of the whole world.
I won't pretend I need more than that, and I have faith that it is enough because that is what He taught.
I will not seek to establish my own righteousness and think by works I can be saved or stay saved.
I will submit to His righteousness and accept His gift with gratitude.
also
Who said don't do good works?
I know I didn't, ever.
But if you think they help save us...
You may have missed a verse or 300....
Heres a pretty big one.
Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
(cough cough, man gets no credit)
Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Description of someone saved
1. Once enlightened
2. tasted of the heavenly gift
3. partakers of the Holy Spirit
4. have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come
5. be renewed.
If they shall fall away,
to renew them again unto repentance seeing they crucify to themselves
the Son of God afresh, and put Him to open shame.
God I so love Him, to make sure we put it in the proper CONTEXT put this next verse in.
for the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it,
and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed,
receiveth blessing from God our lives summed up we are the earth, He gives us rain, we bring for herbs, we love Him, we receive blessings.
God will not be mocked. He didn't say if you throw the gift away, I will give you another. As a matter of fact we read right above, best not do that cause you lose it.
Do we go around judging who really meant it from who didn't really mean it? Have you ever met someone who has "renounced "God completely? I am going to say NO.
God repented of putting us in the flesh.
He also knew we couldn't even follow the law of Moses.
So what did He do?
Made a promise, to those he had given with freewill, 1/3 of who had turned on Him once before, most who would be in the end times, that only he really had to keep.
Backing this position defies all logic and common sense. What would be the point? The gift of eternal life wasn't good enough? He had to promise it. Was that to get people to at least try?
Description of someone saved
1. Once enlightened
2. tasted of the heavenly gift
3. partakers of the Holy Spirit
4. have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come
5. be renewed.
If they shall fall away,
to renew them again unto repentance seeing they crucify to themselves
the Son of God afresh, and put Him to open shame.
God I so love Him, to make sure we put it in the proper CONTEXT put this next verse in.
for the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it,
and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed,
receiveth blessing from God our lives summed up we are the earth, He gives us rain, we bring for herbs, we love Him, we receive blessings.
God will not be mocked. He didn't say if you throw the gift away, I will give you another. As a matter of fact we read right above, best not do that cause you lose it.
Do we go around judging who really meant it from who didn't really mean it? Have you ever met someone who has "renounced "God completely? I am going to say NO.
God repented of putting us in the flesh.
He also knew we couldn't even follow the law of Moses.
So what did He do?
Made a promise, to those he had given with freewill, 1/3 of who had turned on Him once before, most who would be in the end times, that only he really had to keep.
Backing this position defies all logic and common sense. What would be the point? The gift of eternal life wasn't good enough? He had to promise it. Was that to get people to at least try?
Amen.
"6 For it is God, having said, “Light shall shine out of darkness,” who shone in our hearts for the radiance of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
7 Now we have this treasure in earthen vessels, [in order] that the surpassingness of the power may be from God, and not from us"
You are doing a lot of supposing and making things irrevocable that aren't
Just because the gift is offered doesn't mean you automatically pass go and collect 200.00 dollars.
Look the only thing you need to change is go from judging who is and isn't saved to
"those who didn't receive it, didn't because they chose not to".
BUT you cant say that God "HAS BEEN MANDATED" to take those who chose not to NO MATTER WHAT LEVEL GOODNESS THEY ONCE ATTAINED.
Because EVERYONE who accepts that gift, and wants it, and doesn't throw it away, gets it just as promised.
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eternally-gratefull
Guest
IF they fall away
It does not say they do, it does not flat out say they can, It just says if. Which can also mean if it were possible
If they wall away, they can not be renewed.
If salvation can be lost. It can not be renewed. SAYING salvation can be lost, puts christ to shame, It says his death was insufficient. That is what those who return to law say. And that is the context of this passage.
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eternally-gratefull
Guest
You can not throw away a gift, Not would you throw away the most precious gift you ever had, UNLESS you had no clue of the value to begin with.
Do you believe that if a believer falls and walks away that they can never come back to Jesus?
No, that is not what I am saying. I am saying the fruit of the vine is not shining through, and I thought I would give you a tiny nudge.
Rev 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to Him, for the marriage of the Lamb is come and His wife hath made herself ready
And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white, for the fine linen is the righteousness of the saints.
And He saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And He saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
Glory be to God for His grace given to our souls
Working faith shows itself by the fruit of love that pours of through our hearts and actions.
5 My righteousness draws near speedily, my salvation is on the way, and my arm will bring justice to the nations. The islands will look to me and wait in hope for my arm.
6 Lift up your eyes to the heavens, look at the earth beneath; the heavens will vanish like smoke, the earth will wear out like a garment and its inhabitants die like flies. But my salvation will last forever, my righteousness will never fail.
7 "Hear me, you who know what is right, you people who have my law in your hearts: Do not fear the reproach of men or be terrified by their insults.
Isaiah 51
How do we love our neighbour?
30 In reply Jesus said: "A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, when he fell into the hands of robbers. They stripped him of his clothes, beat him and went away, leaving him half dead.
31 A priest happened to be going down the same road, and when he saw the man, he passed by on the other side.
32 So too, a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side.
33 But a Samaritan, as he traveled, came where the man was; and when he saw him, he took pity on him.
34 He went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he put the man on his own donkey, took him to an inn and took care of him.
35 The next day he took out two silver coins and gave them to the innkeeper. 'Look after him,' he said, 'and when I return, I will reimburse you for any extra expense you may have.
Luke 10
Love is shown despite what others think about one another, a need is met.
So we also should live.
Working faith shows itself by the fruit of love that pours of through our hearts and actions.
5 My righteousness draws near speedily, my salvation is on the way, and my arm will bring justice to the nations. The islands will look to me and wait in hope for my arm.
6 Lift up your eyes to the heavens, look at the earth beneath; the heavens will vanish like smoke, the earth will wear out like a garment and its inhabitants die like flies. But my salvation will last forever, my righteousness will never fail.
7 "Hear me, you who know what is right, you people who have my law in your hearts: Do not fear the reproach of men or be terrified by their insults.
Isaiah 51
How do we love our neighbour?
30 In reply Jesus said: "A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, when he fell into the hands of robbers. They stripped him of his clothes, beat him and went away, leaving him half dead.
31 A priest happened to be going down the same road, and when he saw the man, he passed by on the other side.
32 So too, a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side.
33 But a Samaritan, as he traveled, came where the man was; and when he saw him, he took pity on him.
34 He went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he put the man on his own donkey, took him to an inn and took care of him.
35 The next day he took out two silver coins and gave them to the innkeeper. 'Look after him,' he said, 'and when I return, I will reimburse you for any extra expense you may have.
Luke 10
Love is shown despite what others think about one another, a need is met.
So we also should live.
I think part of the problem here is that we define salvation differently:
You define salvation as the new birth, being born again, having faith in Jesus' death, going to heaven, and forgiveness
- Please feel free to correct me or add to what I say here . . . I dont' want to put words into your mouth . . . (not that you would let me anyway -
)I define salvation as "deliverance from" - I am delivered from eternal death through faith in Jesus' sacrifice and His blood: I am forgiven of my sins and receive eternal life - today I have a relationship with Jesus Christ that will last through all eternity and end in heaven,; and he has promised to walk with me daily and give me the power to live about the control of the flesh, and the Devil. He has "delivered" me from the daily control of sin. He is my Lord and my Saviour! He does good works through me (I am HIS workmanship).
So from the perspective of what I see salvation as I am not afraid to put salvation and works in the same sentence. To take works out of the sentence (to me) is to deny that God cares about the daily battle in the flesh that I face with sin!
No problem with the thread here - We are saved by faith and not by works! Amen - it is God and not man! But I am not afraid to talk about works and put it in the same sentence as salvation.
I understand and agree with your sentiment here - I think you care deeply that we do not think that our works will get us saved, keep us saved, or get us "brownie points" with God! Amen! I agree!