Not By Works

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Eli12

Active member
#104,001
Jul 3, 2019
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#104,001
UnderGrace said:
I would say this is a different context than what James is writing about.
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I am answering your question: can "something" be dead without being alive before? Yes.

Faith is dead without works; that's what James says ... and I am glad EG mentioned it, cause he thought that I wasn't right when I talked about people who think that they don't need any work at all related with their salvation. Now he can see I wasn't wrong.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#104,002
#104,002
UnderGrace said:
Logic ;)
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Logic?

Logic says james spoke against licentiousness.

people who believed God, but had no faith in God. Thats WHY they had no works

As apposed to paul. Who spoke against legalism, People who proclaimed a bunch of works, yet had no faith..
 
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UnderGrace

Guest
#104,003
#104,003
eternally-gratefull said:
Logic?

Logic says james spoke against licentiousness.

people who believed God, but had no faith in God. Thats WHY they had no works

As apposed to paul. Who spoke against legalism, People who proclaimed a bunch of works, yet had no faith..
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Disagree again, James was writing to Christians and must be read through that lens.

I know you want agreement, but I know that salvation/saving faith is completely and wholly apart from the outward works we do.

To state that works are necessary part of salvation, comes dangerously close to making works part of salvation however unintentional.

This is it ...

John 5:24: Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Done.
 
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UnderGrace

Guest
#104,005
#104,005
Eli12 said:
I am answering your question: can "something" be dead without being alive before? Yes.

Faith is dead without works; that's what James says ... and I am glad EG mentioned it, cause he thought that I wasn't right when I talked about people who think that they don't need any work at all related with their salvation. Now he can see I wasn't wrong.
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The faith that justifies before men is useless without works.
 
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Eli12

Active member
#104,006
Jul 3, 2019
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#104,006
Interesting how Peter use a different combination of words to say the same:

1Pe 2:7 (YLT) to you, then, who are believing is the preciousness; and to the unbelieving, a stone that the builders disapproved of, this one did become for the head of a corner,
8 and a stone of stumbling and a rock of offence--who are stumbling at the word, being unbelieving, --to which also they were set

That word in red is not the same one in Juan 3:36

Joh 3:36 (YLT) he who is believing in the Son, hath life age-during; and he who is not believing the Son, shall not see life, but the wrath of God doth remain upon him.'

Check both words in greek; the one by John has to do with "unbelievers", and Peter uses "disobedients". Some don't know what is obedience about, but it is parallel with the faith in some passages.
 
stillness

stillness

Senior Member
#104,009
Jan 28, 2013
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Walk trough the valley
#104,009
dcontroversal said:
No one loses salvation pal.....and everything else you said, nothing but unfounded false allegations or implications.......
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Things you overlook: falling from grace dosent mean your lost: I fell from grace on the weekend and got frustrated with my Lady friend. She praided for me and i got over it. "His mercies are new every morning." The influence of Grace is sufiscient when we continue in Love, "Love does not insist on its own way." If people have to conform to your view and understanding to be accepted by you, even the truth you think you have would be considered a lie: from not having "Faith that works by Love." If I have all knowlege and understand all misteries and have not Love, i am nothing."
 
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DeighAnn

Banned Serpent Seed Heresy
#104,010
Jun 11, 2019
2,436
760
113
#104,010
VCO said:
22 On that day many will say to Me, ‘Lord, Lord, didn’t we prophesy in Your name, drive out demons in Your name, and do many miracles in Your name?’ [They did those deeds thinking they need to earn Salvation.]
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The person doing those deeds, if they are a true child of God, they aren't doing them for salvation. They don't really give salvation a thought. It is out of love for the Lord. and all His longsuffering to save as many of His children as He can. I know this. I have never doubted my going to heaven. Never not once. So there is no works or deeds or repenting or anything that has to do with that. I had never even heard of it being in question before. I think that is what is so weird. It really is like the first thing we learn and the reason we even start down the path. Salvation can only be an offering of God. Maybe because I was born and raised Christian. I didn't even learn about the laws and works and ...... till way after I was already sure of my salvation. God is going to know. There will be no fooling him. Why does anyone else care what someone's motives are if they know for sure the truth will be revealed. Does saying it a million times change anything about what that person will do? I still don't know what it all really boils down to but I like that. I will find out or learn a lot not getting there.
 
JamOn

JamOn

Banned
#104,011
Jun 10, 2019
4,304
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#104,011
stillness said:
Things you overlook: falling from grace dosent mean your lost: I fell from grace on the weekend and got frustrated with my Lady friend. She praided for me and i got over it. "His mercies are new every morning." The influence of Grace is sufiscient when we continue in Love, "Love does not insist on its own way." If people have to conform to your view and understanding to be accepted by you, even the truth you think you have would be considered a lie: from not having "Faith that works by Love." If I have all knowlege and understand all misteries and have not Love, i am nothing."
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Love doesn’t come easy does it, I know some times i got to work at it.
 
stonesoffire

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
#104,012
Nov 24, 2013
10,665
1,829
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#104,012
FollowHisSteps said:
There is a ministry in our area calling believers into the 3rd space.
This is the social space of cafes, bars, health clubs where people go to socialise, where we can
meet them and just share our lives and how the world blesses us. People often go to find solutions
where a one to one in other situations is not possible, yet after a small interaction serious issues
come out.

With over 50% of the world living in cities now, these spaces are probably becoming more important
as work is now so desk bound, and travel is just home to work and back with limited interactions.
I am not one to talk as I have probably withdrawn more over the years, but reaching out to others
is part of who we are in Christ. God bless you
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Those that I follow and they all are on Facebook, do the same thing. It’s our job to take the Kingdom of God and the salvation Jesus purchased for all to the world. Good post follow.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#104,013
#104,013
UnderGrace said:
Disagree again, James was writing to Christians and must be read through that lens.

I know you want agreement, but I know that salvation/saving faith is completely and wholly apart from the outward works we do.

To state that works are necessary part of salvation, comes dangerously close to making works part of salvation however unintentional.

This is it ...

John 5:24: Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Done.
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So I can have mere belief and still be saved. Be a heater if the word and diet. And not saved

I have to beg the workers forgiveness for saying no one teaches a licentious gospel because it seems some do
 
stillness

stillness

Senior Member
#104,014
Jan 28, 2013
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Walk trough the valley
#104,014
About the coments on salvation present and future. Have been saved and will ne saved. We were saved when Jesus died: the whole world, "We trust in the Living God who is the saviour of all men, especially of them that believe." "Father forgive them for they know not whay they do." Now its about growing in Love: the only thing that cant be forgiven, is not having Love. if we dont continue in His Love. If we become ofended and refuse to forgive, we are not forgiven. If we hold unresolved anger we fall from Grace. Yet there is Grace to repent and we need to rely on the influencenof Grace at the end of ourselves. We will all come to the end of ourselves, "Following Christ in His suferings and death," or remain babes in Christ. Like the thief on the cross, maybe worse, as He suffered willingly with Jesus.
 
stonesoffire

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
#104,015
Nov 24, 2013
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#104,015
Noose said:
John 13:34A new commandment I give you:Love one another. As I have loved you, so also you must love one another.

Gal 5:14The entireLaw is fulfilled in a single decree: “Love yourneighbor as yourself.”
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Jesus gave a new commandment that puts another view foremost and that’s forgiveness. A new commandment I give unto you, that you love others as I have loved you. Holding nothing against anyone for He holds nothing against us.

So two scriptures then come to my mind. The love of God is shed abroad in our hearts through the Holy Spirit. And the other is that we have been given all that we need for Godliness....and now I have a blank. Can’t remember the second thing. Do you recall it noose?

Being born from above, we love, we forgive, and we live upright. Maybe not perfectly for a time, but I’m now about to be 73 this month coming and I can witness that Holiness will become the cry of each of your hearts as Holy Spirit continues His work.

Not by might, nor by power but by My Spirit saith the Lord,
 
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DeighAnn

Banned Serpent Seed Heresy
#104,016
Jun 11, 2019
2,436
760
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#104,016
Eli12 said:
You are talking about yourself, and I think is true what you say ... but when somebody thinks of himself, that he is already saved and he won't loose what he supposely had already, then that person can easily fall in sins and believe it doesn't matter ... I can see that here a lot.

PD: Again, sorry for my English.
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But there are those who are captured by the Lord. They are such that they would rather die, that to turn to the world away from God. There is nothing anyone could ever say, there is nothing that could ever happen, they truly live for God. They are not "under" any law because the laws don't feel like laws. They feel so natural it is like breathing. Sure they fall down. but not for long. When they do sin, there is a conviction that disturbs their well being and till they repent and get right, its hell. But I do see what you are saying. It is like a trap that is set. You are saved, you are good to go. nothing can hurt you now. Those are the ones who "believe" the hype, but never get into the faith. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. Is it their fault that they believe it? No, that is their teachers fault. I always remember God is Just and peace washes over me. The prayers of the saints. Can't get out from those.
 
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UnderGrace

Guest
#104,017
#104,017
eternally-gratefull said:
So I can have mere belief and still be saved. Be a heater if the word and diet. And not saved

I have to beg the workers forgiveness for saying no one teaches a licentious gospel because it seems some do
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Okay then ... there is no such thing as a licentious Gospel or mere belief so anyway I think this discussion has reached its fruition.
 
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DeighAnn

Banned Serpent Seed Heresy
#104,018
Jun 11, 2019
2,436
760
113
#104,018
Smooth said:
In John chapter 3 we see very clearly that Jesus states, anyone who does not believe in Him is condemned. Jesus doesn’t say any Gentile, he says anyone.
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What does that have to do with the Abrahamic Covenant?
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#104,019
#104,019
UnderGrace said:
Okay then ... there is no such thing as a licentious Gospel or mere belief so anyway I think this discussion has reached its fruition.
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Yes there is

James preached against it. And Jude condemned its

This conversation is scary that’s what it is
 
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UnderGrace

Guest
#104,020
#104,020
eternally-gratefull said:
Yes there is

James preached against it. And Jude condemned its

This conversation is scary that’s what it is
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James and Jude were addressing different issues.

Thank you for the concern and I am done because you do not understand what I am putting forth.

Do you see what you are saying, you are saying that there is no genuine salvation because there are no works that is not true. We are not saved by our works we saved apart from works therefore works can never be proof of salvation.

I believe exactly what @dcontroversal stated here. ( and I hope he does not mind but it relates directly to this discussion)

#36

7. Good works and righteousness must follow salvation. If they are absent, there was no genuine salvation. Just as if there is no repentance, there is no genuine salvation. (stated by another member)

The above underlined absolutely contradicts the following truth

But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness.
 
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