Did Jesus ever tell us that we no longer need to keep the law of Moses?

[posthuman]

If you don’t understand what mystery I was referring in Ephesians 3:9, don’t jump to conclusions about my views, and just ask politely for clarifications. If you don’t want to do so, that is also fine, just ignore my postings.

oh?

How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,​

Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)​

Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;​

That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel​

(Ephesians 3:3-6) ​

i said, you have Christ not knowing what He was doing on the cross. was this not accomplished on the cross?

For He is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;​

Having abolished in His flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in Himself of twain one new man, so making peace;​

And that He might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:​

And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.​

For through Him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.​

(Ephesians 2:14-18)​

​

don't you believe, like you said, that Jesus didn't know about this at all?

isn't your view IOW that Jesus didn't understand this -

They have made Me jealous with what is not God; They have provoked Me to anger with their idols. So I will make them jealous with those who are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation ​

(Deuteronomy 32:21) ​

?

why do you think He went to Samaria and saved the gentile woman at the well?
why do you figure He healed the gentile centurion's servant, and said of him, that He found no faith so great as his in all of Israel?
why do you imagine He told the disciples to go into all the world making disciples? or said that the gospel should be preached in the whole world as a testimony to every people?

​

 

[Guojing]

.




Me either. So you don't think the Spiritual death and the second death are a reality?

Let's take a look. The context is the final judgement. Not the Romans in 70 AD or the transfiguration. To say that it is either of those events would be extremely allegoric. As read the passages below please consider what was highlighted.

Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul? For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward EVERY man according to his works. Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.
(Mat 16:24-28 KJV)
And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it. For what is a man advantaged, if he gain the whole world, and lose himself, or be cast away? For WHOSOEVER shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels. But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God.
(Luk 9:23-27 KJV)

My point was that his second coming was supposed to be either when the Jews rejected him or accepted him. It was prophesied in the ot.

Only God the Father knew about the mystery of the grace dispensation that would interrupt this prophecy.

 

[posthuman]

But the grace dispensation was a mystery hidden in God the Father, as Ephesians 3:9 stated. Jesus had no knowledge of that when he was still in the flesh.

Jesus didn't know what He was saying when He said this?

I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. ​

(Matthew 8:11) ​

Jesus didn't know what Isaiah 56 was about? He quotes it as He drives out the moneychangers from the temple!

 

[Guojing]

oh?

How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,​

Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)​

Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;​

That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel​

(Ephesians 3:3-6) ​

i said, you have Christ not knowing what He was doing on the cross. was this not accomplished on the cross?

For He is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;​

Having abolished in His flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in Himself of twain one new man, so making peace;​

And that He might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:​

And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.​

For through Him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.​

(Ephesians 2:14-18)​

​

don't you believe, like you said, that Jesus didn't know about this at all?

isn't your view IOW that Jesus didn't understand this -

They have made Me jealous with what is not God; They have provoked Me to anger with their idols. So I will make them jealous with those who are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation ​

(Deuteronomy 32:21) ​

?

why do you think He went to Samaria and saved the gentile woman at the well?
why do you figure He healed the gentile centurion's servant, and said of him, that He found no faith so great as his in all of Israel?
why do you imagine He told the disciples to go into all the world making disciples? or said that the gospel should be preached in the whole world as a testimony to every people?

​

Even Isaiah prophesied that Jesus would die on the cross for our sins so your accusation that I am implying that Jesus did not know what he was doing at the cross is such a ridiculous point.

 

[Guojing]

Jesus didn't know what He was saying when He said this?

I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. ​

(Matthew 8:11) ​

Jesus didn't know what Isaiah 56 was about? He quotes it as He drives out the moneychangers from the temple!

The mystery that was hidden in God the Father was more than just Jesus dying on the cross for sins

 

[posthuman]

But the grace dispensation was a mystery hidden in God the Father, as Ephesians 3:9 stated. Jesus had no knowledge of that when he was still in the flesh. My belief is that, after he resurrected and went to heaven, God the Father revealed that plan to him. Once he is free of his earthly body, of course he knows all things now.

He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.”​

The woman came and knelt before him. “Lord, help me!” she said.​

He replied, “It is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to the dogs.”​

“Yes it is, Lord,” she said. “Even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their master’s table.”​

Then Jesus said to her, “Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted.” And her daughter was healed at that moment.​

(Matthew 15:24-28)​

​

in your opinion was this Canaanite woman wiser than Jesus?
did she just teach the Son of God that grace is for gentiles, too?

 

[posthuman]

Even Isaiah prophesied that Jesus would die on the cross for our sins so your accusation that I am implying that Jesus did not know what he was doing at the cross is such a ridiculous point.

you said Jesus didn't know anything about our sins being taken away at the cross -- assuming we're gentiles -- so that's equivalent to Jesus not understanding what Isaiah was talking about.

 

[posthuman]

The mystery that was hidden in God the Father was more than just Jesus dying on the cross for sins

Christ is God. hid in God = hid in Christ.

Ephesians 3:6 defines for us explicitly what the mystery referred to in Ephesians 3:9 is:

This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus. ​

​

​

​

 

[posthuman]

Only God the Father knew about the mystery of the grace dispensation that would interrupt this prophecy.

And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations,
and then the end will come.​

(Matthew 24:14) ​

Jesus know what He was saying here, yes or no .. ?

 

[posthuman]

why is it a person would sooner call Christ ignorant than accept that they themselves are the ones who lack understanding in what they read?

smh

i don't understand scripture. i freely confess it
the Bible is complex and profound beyond anything in the universe.
surely it is fulfilled in me also, when i say to someone, i don't think you understand what you are reading, that the same is true of me, that i thereby accuse.

but i know enough that the lack of knowledge is on my part, not God's

 

[posthuman]

​

In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, which was not made known to people in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God’s holy apostles and prophets. ​

(Ephesians 3:4-5) ​

here's a node.

@Guojing don't you say this means, the mystery of Christ was hidden from Christ?

is that not equivalent to 'Jesus didn't understand what He was doing or who He was' ?

 

[SimpleGardner]

My view is that whenever Paul talks about sin, he is almost always talking about sin as a noun..

So when he said Jesus was without sin in Hebrews , he is referring to the same sin as a noun, as in romans 5:12-19.

Because he does not have the sinful nature in him, he could not have sinned as a verb.

It’s like after our rapture, when our new bodies will not have the same sinful nature. Sin will have no grip on us, unlike now.

I appreciate that very much, thank you.

I agree with you that Jesus could not sin, but I would like to qualify that. First, we know that he was born and became a man as was tempted in all ways as we are. So, if He was tempted and vulnerable, then why didn’t Jesus sin? My first occupation was a shipbuilder. Had to learn a lot of interesting terms and one of those terms; “displacement” has been a handy mental tool for me over the years. The basic premise of displacement is that if a ship weighs a million pounds, when it is put into the water it will “displace” a million pounds of water. So, if you set the ship in the water the amount of water that it moved out of the way or the depression it made in the water, if you weighed it would be exactly the weight of the ship. An utterly dependable law of physics! Is anyone as excited as me? I know this must sound nerdy and yep, that’s me in spades! Hear me out though on how in my mind this applies to Jesus. So, again He was tempted in all ways as we are, BUT! He was filled with a purpose driven by absolute LOVE and HUMILITY! Those two factors alone “displaced” any and all desires to sin! Made His burden easy and light! His commands to us to love one another as He loved us are key, and His admonition to “come learn of me for I am meek and lowly and I will give you rest” is Key! These are the principal characteristics of our Shepherd! These were/are the characteristics that “Displace” the desires for sin. These are the secrets to victory over the adversaries cunning and the weakness of the flesh! John 13:34-35 & Matt 11:28-30.

So while I disagree that Jesus was not in the frame of a man who was but dust as we are Psa 103:14. I do agree that He was in fact incapable of sin due to the supernatural attributes of Love and Meekness and Lowliness, the displacers of fallen desires!

When we read:

Gen 4:7 KJV If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

It seems that there were laws in place which God was warning Cain about. Notice the “if”.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

If you don't commit sins that lead to death,

See, this is what I was talking about. The bible says the PENALTY of sin (ALL) is Death.

As james said, if you keep the whole law yet stumble in one point, your guilty of all. Thats why I used the example of urine in the pure water. Each sin, (no matter how small) is a drop of urine.

The sin which leads to death is talking about physical death (a drunk gets in car, get into a wreck and died. Has committed the sin unto death.. We know this because the passage says, IF YOU SEE a person COMMIT A SIN which LEADS TO DEATH, You can not see spiritual death, you can only see physical.

have genuine faith, love in your heart, patience, forgiveness, etc, you are holy and will be saved. Those who think that Jesus paid for ALL our sins (past and future) most probably will not be saved.

But I thought you say you teach salvation by grace? This is not grace. This is a whole lotta work here my friend..

I think the opposite. That people who think their final destiny is based on what they do or do not do are probably not saved.

 

[SimpleGardner]

I appreciate that very much, thank you.

I agree with you that Jesus could not sin, but I would like to qualify that. First, we know that he was born and became a man as was tempted in all ways as we are. So, if He was tempted and vulnerable, then why didn’t Jesus sin? My first occupation was a shipbuilder. Had to learn a lot of interesting terms and one of those terms; “displacement” has been a handy mental tool for me over the years. The basic premise of displacement is that if a ship weighs a million pounds, when it is put into the water it will “displace” a million pounds of water. So, if you set the ship in the water the amount of water that it moved out of the way or the depression it made in the water, if you weighed it would be exactly the weight of the ship. An utterly dependable law of physics! Is anyone as excited as me? I know this must sound nerdy and yep, that’s me in spades! Hear me out though on how in my mind this applies to Jesus. So, again He was tempted in all ways as we are, BUT! He was filled with a purpose driven by absolute LOVE and HUMILITY! Those two factors alone “displaced” any and all desires to sin! Made His burden easy and light! His commands to us to love one another as He loved us are key, and His admonition to “come learn of me for I am meek and lowly and I will give you rest” is Key! These are the principal characteristics of our Shepherd! These were/are the characteristics that “Displace” the desires for sin. These are the secrets to victory over the adversaries cunning and the weakness of the flesh! John 13:34-35 & Matt 11:28-30.

So while I disagree that Jesus was not in the frame of a man who was but dust as we are Psa 103:14. I do agree that He was in fact incapable of sin due to the supernatural attributes of Love and Meekness and Lowliness, the displacers of fallen desires!

When we read:

Gen 4:7 KJV If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

It seems that there were laws in place which God was warning Cain about. Notice the “if”.

Addendum;

Heb 5:1-14 NIV Every high priest is selected from among men and is appointed to represent them in matters related to God, to offer gifts and sacrifices for sins. (2) He is able to deal gently with those who are ignorant and are going astray, since he himself is subject to weakness. (3) This is why he has to offer sacrifices for his own sins, as well as for the sins of the people. (4) No one takes this honor upon himself; he must be called by God, just as Aaron was. (5) So Christ also did not take upon himself the glory of becoming a high priest. But God said to him, "You are my Son; today I have become your Father." (6) And he says in another place, "You are a priest forever, in the order of Melchizedek." (7) During the days of Jesus' life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission. (8) Although he was a son, he learned obedience from what he suffered (9) and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him (10) and was designated by God to be high priest in the order of Melchizedek. (11) We have much to say about this, but it is hard to explain because you are slow to learn. (12) In fact, though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you the elementary truths of God's word all over again. You need milk, not solid food! (13) Anyone who lives on milk, being still an infant, is not acquainted with the teaching about righteousness. (14) But solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil.

See, this is what I was talking about. The bible says the PENALTY of sin (ALL) is Death.

As james said, if you keep the whole law yet stumble in one point, your guilty of all. Thats why I used the example of urine in the pure water. Each sin, (no matter how small) is a drop of urine.

The sin which leads to death is talking about physical death (a drunk gets in car, get into a wreck and died. Has committed the sin unto death.. We know this because the passage says, IF YOU SEE a person COMMIT A SIN which LEADS TO DEATH, You can not see spiritual death, you can only see physical.



But I thought you say you teach salvation by grace? This is not grace. This is a whole lotta work here my friend..

I think the opposite. That people who think their final destiny is based on what they do or do not do are probably not saved.

Heb 6:1-12 NIV Therefore let us leave the elementary teachings about Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death, and of faith in God, (2) instruction about baptisms, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. (3) And God permitting, we will do so. (4) It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, (5) who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, (6) if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. (7) Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. (8) But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned. (9) Even though we speak like this, dear friends, we are confident of better things in your case—things that accompany salvation. (10) God is not unjust; he will not forget your work and the love you have shown him as you have helped his people and continue to help them. (11) We want each of you to show this same diligence to the very end, in order to make your hope sure. (12) We do not want you to become lazy, but to imitate those who through faith and patience inherit what has been promised.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Okay.
Right here in this post you implied I am a liar, slanderer, I give God a bad name, and I give God's people a bad name. Shall we continue?

Guilt complex got you?

That was directed to people like deighann and simplegardner. And my warning, that if you wanted to join them, I will report you also.

Once again, Do you want to show some proof? Or will you be like them and make accusations, yet when confronted, refuse to give examples?

 

[posthuman]

Greetings PH,

I just returned from a long drive...a pre apology for any typos and repeating myself/

We have scriptural evidence that God can work outside of the Natural Laws of Time and Space. In fact many would argue that our perception of what Natural Law it is an aberration of actual Nature. But that's for another day. Here we are.
But, Moral laws. Without getting in over my head let me ask as simply as I can; Do you find any evidence that God cannot violate The Moral Laws He has given to man?

when we say "God cannot lie" we are not saying that their is an higher moral authority than God, to which He is beholden.

we are saying that He is true - that truth is an attribute of Him. in fact He defines truth, because He is I AM

 

[posthuman]

modus tollens.

do you know what sprechfenster is?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

[QUOTE="SimpleGardner, post: 3982960, member: 284192"
Heb 6:1-12 NIV Therefore let us leave the elementary teachings about Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death, and of faith in God, (2) instruction about baptisms, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. (3) And God permitting, we will do so. (4) It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, (5) who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, (6) if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. (7) Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. (8) But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned. (9) Even though we speak like this, dear friends, we are confident of better things in your case—things that accompany salvation. (10) God is not unjust; he will not forget your work and the love you have shown him as you have helped his people and continue to help them. (11) We want each of you to show this same diligence to the very end, in order to make your hope sure. (12) We do not want you to become lazy, but to imitate those who through faith and patience inherit what has been promised.[/QUOTE]

What does this have to do with what I said?

The penalty of sin is death. The gift of God is eternal life.

I think the bible is quite clear. As moses said, Obey every word. Paul confirmed. And james reiterated (keep whole law yet fail in one point) the penalty of sin is death. There are no ok sins and grave sins like the catholic church wants you to believe. One sin, no matter how small. Makes you GUILTY..

Hebrews does not say otherwise.

 

[SimpleGardner]

Okay.
Right here in this post you implied I am a liar, slanderer, I give God a bad name, and I give God's people a bad name. Shall we continue?

Don't forget the "side step" when the gets deep.

SG

 

[DeighAnn]

walked we not in the same spirit? walked we not in the same steps?

Again think ye that we excuse ourselves unto you? we speak before God in Christ but we do all things dearly beloved for you edifying. For I fear, lest when I come I shall not find you such as I would and that I shall be found unto you such as ye would NOT lest there be debates, envyings, wraths, strifes, backbitings, whisperings, swelling tumults AND lest when I come again my God will humble me among you and that I shall bewail many which have sinned already and have not repented of the uncleanness and fornication and lasciviousness which they have committed.

Moreover thou shalt say unto them Thus saith the LORD, Shall thy fall and not arise? shall he turn away and not return? Why then is this people of Jerusalem slidden back by a perpetual backsliding? They hold fast deceit, they refuse to return. I hearkened and heard but they spake not aright no man repented him of his wickedness saying What have I done? Everyone turned to his course as the horse rusheth into the battle.

How do ye say We are wise and the law of the LORD is with us? Lo certainly in vain made he it, the pen of the scribe is in vain.

The wise men are ashamed they are dismayed and taken, lo THEY HAVE REJECTED THE WORD OF THE LORD AND WHAT WISDOM IS IN THEM?

Were they ashamed when they committed abomination? NAY, they were not at all ashamed, neither could they blush. Therefore shall they fall among them that fall, in the time of their visitation they shall be cast down saith the LORD.

Matthew 27:3 Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders, A mighty lucky day indeed for the chief priests and elders when Judas hanged himself and sliced himself open so that his guts burst out at the same time. Could you imagine what kind of trouble would have been stirred up by him, a man feeling that guilty. He could have taken them all down.

Can we truly repent without faith? Can faith exist without repentance?

2 Corinthians 7:1 Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God. Receive us, we have wronged no man, we have corrupted no man, we have defrauded no man.
I speak not this to condemn you for I have said before that ye are in our hearts to die and live with you. Great is my boldness of speech toward you, great is my glorying of you, I am filled with comfort, I am exceeding joyful in all our tribulation. For, when we were come into Macedonia, our flesh had no rest, but we were troubled on every side; without were fightings, within were fears.
Nevertheless God, that comforteth those that are cast down, comforted us by the coming of Titus and not by his coming only, but by the consolation wherewith he was comforted in you, when he told us your earnest desire, your mourning, your fervent mind toward me so that I rejoiced the more.
For though I made you sorry with a letter, I do not repent, though I did repent: for I perceive that the same epistle hath made you sorry, though it were but for a season.
Now I rejoice, not that ye were made sorry, but that ye sorrowed to repentance for ye were made sorry after a godly manner that ye might receive damage by us in nothing.

For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of, but the sorrow of the world worketh death.