Did Jesus ever tell us that we no longer need to keep the law of Moses?

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Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
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it's interesting too that by the time of the Babylonian captivity, Babylon had also first conquered Assyria.

An attacker advances against you, Nineveh.
Guard the fortress,
watch the road,
brace yourselves,
marshal all your strength!
(Nahum 2:1)

Ninevah fell in 612 BC
Nebuchadnezzar took Jerusalem around 597 BC


((i think 612 is a reliable date, but iirc some people argue about whether Jerusalem fell in 597 or it was 587. i dunno, would need to research))
I think there is a time lag between the time that Jerusalem is first conquered by the Babylonians, and Nebuchadnezzar installs a puppet King... Then Jerusalem again rebels against Nebuchadnezzar so the army comes again and burns down most of the city including the temple and carries most of the people away to Babylon.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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You are the one saying that, not me.
are you not saying Jesus was wrong in Matthew 16?

if you say, God said Peter is supposed to be the head of the church, but look, God made James head instead, how can you be saying anything other than that God was saying something which isn't true?
and if God says things that aren't true, God is a liar. and if God thought something would be, but He was wrong, God is a misguided fool.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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I think there is a time lag between the time that Jerusalem is first conquered by the Babylonians, and Nebuchadnezzar installs a puppet King... Then Jerusalem again rebels against Nebuchadnezzar so the army comes again and burns down most of the city including the temple and carries most of the people away to Babylon.
yes, he takes princes back with him the first time, including Daniel, right? and then comes back and takes almost everyone.
i'd have to go re-read it; just going by memory at the moment.
 
Jan 12, 2019
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are you not saying Jesus was wrong in Matthew 16?

if you say, God said Peter is supposed to be the head of the church, but look, God made James head instead, how can you be saying anything other than that God was saying something which isn't true?
and if God says things that aren't true, God is a liar. and if God thought something would be, but He was wrong, God is a misguided fool.
I can see you are a very black and white person. My explanation is simple.

Jesus when he became fully Man on Earth, gave up some of his divinity, which includes knowing all things. He had to grow in wisdom as he grew up as a child, that verse makes more sense that way.

When he proclaim Peter as the head of the church, it was based on the understanding that the Tribulation would have taken place immediately after the Jewish nation rejected him. He prophesy that in Luke 13:8.

But the grace dispensation was a mystery hidden in God the Father, as Ephesians 3:9 stated. Jesus had no knowledge of that when he was still in the flesh. My belief is that, after he resurrected and went to heaven, God the Father revealed that plan to him. Once he is free of his earthly body, of course he knows all things now.

Peter fading into the background in Acts, as James rising as the head of the Jerusalem HQ, correspond very well to the extent of the Jewish nation rejecting Jesus.
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
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yes, he takes princes back with him the first time, including Daniel, right? and then comes back and takes almost everyone.
i'd have to go re-read it; just going by memory at the moment.
Yes, I think that's how it goes.

This just popped into my head, if someone had gone into the temple prior to it being burnt down and removed the ark, it very likely would have violated the law of Moses regarding how the ark is to be transported and who was to enter the holy of holies.

Also, and this is just speculation, but I heard once that it was the Babylonian custom to castrate people in Daniel's position. That would have made Daniel not qualified to be part of the Assembly of the Lord according to the law of Moses. it puts Daniels relationship with God in an interesting light, I think.
 

Marcelo

Senior Member
Feb 4, 2016
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Perfection. Do you realize what that encompasses?

Take a cup of pure water. Perfect spring water with no defects. Then add one drop of urine into that cup. How perfect is that cup? Would you drink it? Would you offer it to God? Thats pretty much what you are doing, except even worse. Because you have WAY MORE than one drop of urin in your cup. THink of all your sins since birth, and that is how much urine you have added to your cup. And you plan on going to Jesus and offering hi that cup?

Yes, Holiness, We are holy because he is. Just like the blood covered the sins in the OT temple sacrifice. Christ blood covers our sin when we will meet him face to face. (You can say he takes oour cup of water and purifies it) Otherwise. That cup of urine filled water will be left on his own on judgment day.
What makes you think that I'm offering God a cup of spring water with drops of urine in it?
 

Marcelo

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Feb 4, 2016
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............all scripture is breathed from God and I know that Jesus is God John 1:14 and even though it was Paul who wrote that letter the words were from Jesus not Paul. Paul admitted that it was not he who lives but Jesus, therefore whatever Paul said concerning the law and faith comes from Jesus Christ himself, be blessed
That's what I think: Paul's letters were actually from Jesus.
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
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Deuteronomy 23: 1. He who is wounded in the stones, or has his privy member cut off, shall not enter into the assembly of the Lord.

I think I have heard from some of my nice Christian brothers and sisters that the church of the New testament is a continuation of the Assembly of the Lord talked about in the old testament.

If that's the case, and if the letter of the law of Moses is still in effect, then that would be a huge bummer for, say, the Vietnam veterans who stepped the wrong way on a landmine. They couldn't be part of the church, would be the logical conclusion of that line of thinking.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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I can see you are a very black and white person. My explanation is simple.

Jesus when he became fully Man on Earth, gave up some of his divinity, which includes knowing all things. He had to grow in wisdom as he grew up as a child, that verse makes more sense that way.

When he proclaim Peter as the head of the church, it was based on the understanding that the Tribulation would have taken place immediately after the Jewish nation rejected him. He prophesy that in Luke 13:8.

But the grace dispensation was a mystery hidden in God the Father, as Ephesians 3:9 stated. Jesus had no knowledge of that when he was still in the flesh. My belief is that, after he resurrected and went to heaven, God the Father revealed that plan to him. Once he is free of his earthly body, of course he knows all things now.

Peter fading into the background in Acts, as James rising as the head of the Jerusalem HQ, correspond very well to the extent of the Jewish nation rejecting Jesus.

so you are saying Jesus was wrong?
you are saying Jesus was ignorant?
you are saying Jesus spoke presumptuously?

dude.

how can you trust Him, and simultaneously think He didn't know what He was talking about?
by saying these things, you're casting doubt on everything He ever said.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
What makes you think that I'm offering God a cup of spring water with drops of urine in it?
You missed the whole point.

1. You said we must be perfect/holy
2. I tried to show you what perfection looks like (pure water)
3. And then showed you what each of us look like (varying degrees of urine mixed in water (sin)

This should show you how utterly impossible it is for you to meet the standards you claim we must meet.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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Deuteronomy 23: 1. He who is wounded in the stones, or has his privy member cut off, shall not enter into the assembly of the Lord.

I think I have heard from some of my nice Christian brothers and sisters that the church of the New testament is a continuation of the Assembly of the Lord talked about in the old testament.

If that's the case, and if the letter of the law of Moses is still in effect, then that would be a huge bummer for, say, the Vietnam veterans who stepped the wrong way on a landmine. They couldn't be part of the church, would be the logical conclusion of that line of thinking.
also eunuchs, which Christ said some become for the sake of the kingdom of God ((Matthew 19))
 

posthuman

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Jul 31, 2013
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Also, and this is just speculation, but I heard once that it was the Babylonian custom to castrate people in Daniel's position. That would have made Daniel not qualified to be part of the Assembly of the Lord according to the law of Moses. it puts Daniels relationship with God in an interesting light, I think.

2 Kings 20:18 supports that --

((Isaiah speaking to Hezekiah after he finds that the king showed the treasury to envoys from Babylon))

And of thy sons, that shall proceed out of thee, and which thou shalt beget, shall they take away, and they shall be eunuchs in the palace of the king of Babylon.
also per the book of Daniel, they were put under the authority of Nebuchadnezzar's chief eunuch, which is circumstantial evidence, but further supports the case.
 

Marcelo

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Feb 4, 2016
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You missed the whole point.

1. You said we must be perfect/holy
2. I tried to show you what perfection looks like (pure water)

3. And then showed you what each of us look like (varying degrees of urine mixed in water (sin)

This should show you how utterly impossible it is for you to meet the standards you claim we must meet.
I didn't say we must be perfect, I said that before the cross Jesus said we should be perfect. After the cross, however, the Lord Jesus gave us new instructions (through Paul and other apostles) regarding salvation. In the New Covenant we don't need to be perfect, but we have to be holy.

Matthew 5:48 New International Version (NIV)
Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.



Hebrews 12:14 English Standard Version (ESV)
Strive for peace with everyone, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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Can we agree, PH, that there is "GOD" who "reigns" from "everlasting TO everlasting?" aka "The ANCIENT of DAYS", " the 7 Spirits of GOD"/The "INVISABLE GOD", "The GOD of ALL AGES", "GOD! Whom NO ONE KNOWS HIS Name, save HE, HIMSELF?" Can we agree on this?

Can we agree that this same GOD, by the power of HIS Word, stablished "points" For HIS GOOD PLEASURE, in HIS Eternal Kingdom, that are referred to as earth/heaven ages?

Can we agree that "by the POWER of HIS WORD", that during the course, of "one", aka this current earth/heaven age, HE would send a SAVIOR in flesh? This same Jesus of Nazareth? aka "The word, made flesh." Can we agree on this?
yes, yes, yes.

Can we agree that Melchizadek, was also a flesh man? That he, being a Priest of the Most High GOD! That he (how can I say) "FOUNDED" (BY GOD'S GOOD PLEASURE) this SAME NAMED "order of Melchizadek", To which this SAME Jesus of Nazareth, was "elevated" ABOVE his fellow (priests), to be SENT to be born of flesh, by this SAME "GOD of ALL AGES?" Can we agree on this?
hmm...
((no comment))


And because of Jesus's OBEDIENCE per GOD'S instructions, after being baptised by John. God stated "THIS DAY!" "HAVE I BEGOTTEN THEE!" This SAME Jesus of Nazareth! Can we agree on this?
no, Christ didn't become the Son of God by obedience. He wasn't at some point "not the Son" and later "become" the Son.
He was baptized because it was '
fitting' -- this is what He told John, who wasn't lying when He called Him the Lamb beforehand, even the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world: the world which was created through Him, for Him, and by Him.

Then, can we agree that the "spirit of TRUTH", mistakenly referred to as the "Spirit of God", and/or "the gift of the Holy Spirit", which leads us unto ALL TRUTH. Is "LIMITED" by the faith of the believer him/herself, into WHAT, and HOW MUCH TRUTH, it is ABLE to "guide" one UNTO? Can we agree on this?

Can we agree that due to one's "lack" of faith, that Jesus HAD to return TO the Father, so as the Father WOULD SEND "another comforter", (expressly) BECAUSE the "guiding" of one unto ALL TRUTH, can be pretty "deceiving/seducing", UNTIL (a) PROPER DISCIPLINE is learned? Can we agree on this?
i don't think it is a mistake to call the Spirit of Truth the Spirit of God. the Spirit of Truth is definitely the spirit sent by Christ to and received by His sheep ((John 14:17, 15:26, 16:13; 1 John 4:6, 5:6)). but this is the same spirit that dwells in us, and is called the Spirit of God in 1 Corinthians 3:16, 6:11, 7:40, 12:3, 14:37, etc. the NT talks about the Spirit of God being the Spirit which we received, which dwells in us, by which we are sanctified, by which we are being transformed and renewed, and also taught. unless Jesus was wrong ((are you with Guojing on that? LOL BBQ HDTV WWF?)) it's the same Spirit He sent, to indwell us, to teach us, and to comfort us. John records this in his gospel, and then in a letter ((1st John)) talks about the 'Spirit of Truth' in the same way that Peter & Paul speak about what they call the 'Spirit of God'
i think it's the same, just different names.
you may reply, '
7 spirits of God' per Revelation, and i understand where you're coming from on that, just don't think it's the right perspective mathematically. i would say, 'but God is one, and His Spirit is one - speaking of 7 spirits is like speaking of the trinity; it's a wonderful and deep mystery - a matter of measures as though in two radically different coordinate systems, and doesn't defy the singularity of God'

so, the Spirit of Truth = Spirit of God in my understanding. just as for God all things are possible, for the Spirit of God all things are possible - because God is One and His Spirit is tantamount to Himself ((by measure)) - so the Spirit is not "limited" -- to me, that is an impossibility. He may refrain from doing something, but that doesn't mean He is unable to do something. ((obviously not talking about sin: God cannot lie is not a statement limiting Him, in the sense i am using the word 'limit' -- that's because of who He is, not because of something beyond the extent of His power or authority))

Can we then agree, that "limited TRUTH", is/are the reason/s why Jesus would say: "if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not."
yes, i can agree with an understanding that what one might call "limited knowledge and/or understanding" is exactly the same as what another might call "limited truth" -- not that THE TRUTH is constrained but that the person does not possess it completely

I WANT you to agree with me, that I, am not Christ! Nope! Not am! Don't WANNA be! NOT GONNA be!
Nor, am I God! Don't WANNA be! NOT GONNA BE!
I am QUITE content on GOD being GOD! And, as EQUALLY content on Christ being the "ONLY WAY" TO the Father! Of which I TRULY believe, and confess!


Just testifying to the"sadness" I see in how many believers sell themselves so short, when it comes to that which transpires after one is "confessed" by Jesus, TO the Father!
100%
and i understand how you got there, just have a couple shall we say '
technical objections' in the foundational logic ;)


BTW -
i have been very busy this week with work & visiting family. have not had time to keep up with this thread except for exchanges with a couple members. so i haven't read everything and don't really know what's been going on with and talked about among all of y'all - including, i ain't read all your posts in here, Bear, only a little bit of a couple of them 'cuz i've only had a coupe minutes at a time sporadically to log onto CC.
so, sorry if it looked like i was ignoring you, in any way. :)
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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Jesus when he became fully Man on Earth, gave up some of his divinity, which includes knowing all things.
Now we understand that You know all things and that You have no need for anyone to question You.
Because of this, we believe that You came from God.
Do you finally believe?” Jesus replied.
(John 16:30-31)
i believe He set aside His glory. that's it.
He was never
only partially God or not God -- 100% of 100% of time, He is 100% God: "the exact representation" ((Hebrews 1)) in flesh
 

NayborBear

Banned Serpent Seed Heresy
Please really check it out and ponder before you get mad at me,
These days leading up to his coming when you hear of "wars and rumors of wars and famines and .....all those things" be NOT

But it is when you hear "Peace and safety" Then sudden destruction of Gods people being taken in.

it is spiritual, it is war for the souls. He is coming doing miracles

How does he come in? Peacefully and prosperously

the tribulation is great for all those who don't know, or care or are deceived, PHYSICALLY. The ripping and shredding and dying and death are "of the souls of the children of God being ripped away from Him and they don't EVEN know it is happening, they think the real Christ has returned.

Think back. When Satan was with Jesus what did he want? When he was protecting the mercy seat, what did he want? When he will be standing in the temple what will he be claiming?

He wants to be God. If you are going to be worshipped like a God you have to act like one. That's the deception. He wants to be worshipped as God. He will proclaim he is God. He is going to fix the deadly wound. The whole world will "worship after him" He knows he has but a short time. He hates God and wants as many souls as he can get.
Oh! I'm mot mad at all.
If I am anything? It's more sad, and frankly disappointed.
There's a lot more to the "Temple of God", then the "Chief Cornerstone." (Jesus Christ) Called "Bethel", in the O.T. (House OF God). As opposed to another house described in the O.T. called "Beth-Aven." (house of nothing)
One cannot accept the "chief cornerstone", and fancy oneself, as having "built" the "whole" Temple. It don't work that way. There are a lot of "stones" involved.

Just as there is a lot of difference from one being "saved?" And, "inheritance."
Salvation? Is a gift! The Gift of the Holy Spirit? Reckon that's a gift also. Hence the Name, eh? :)
Inheritance? Is NOT a gift! It is "earned!" And, this is the difference between being "saved", and being "Adopted."
Matthew 7
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
Isaiah 28
9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
Which is different then:
Matthew 7
13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Isaiah 28
13 But the word of the Lord was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.
Just as there is a difference between "eternal" and "everlasting."

But, to understand this? One must understand the "war" that's been going on ever since the attempted overthrow, which is what brought an end to the previous earth/heaven age.

Many saved people believe this "war" is yet to come. Many adopted people know this "war" has been going on for a much MUCH longer period of time.






 
Apr 3, 2019
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And because of Jesus's OBEDIENCE per GOD'S instructions, after being baptised by John. God stated "THIS DAY!" "HAVE I BEGOTTEN THEE!" This SAME Jesus of Nazareth! Can we agree on this?
No we can't, what you are doing is conflation, and really poor conflation at best.

The "begotten thee" statement only exists in Acts 13:33 (from the Psalms), the "begotten" statements in John's gospel have nothing to do with John baptizing Christ.

This is the context for Christ's baptism at the hands of John:

(Mat 3:13-16 Then Jesus came from Galilee to John to be baptized by him in the Jordan River. But John tried to prevent him, saying, "I need to be baptized by you, and yet you come to me?" So Jesus replied to him, "Let it happen now, for it is right for us to fulfill all righteousness ." Then John yielded to him. After Jesus was baptized, just as he was coming up out of the water, the heavens opened and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and coming on him)

(Mat 3:17 And a voice from heaven said, "This is my one dear Son; in him I take great delight." )
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
I didn't say we must be perfect, I said that before the cross Jesus said we should be perfect. After the cross, however, the Lord Jesus gave us new instructions (through Paul and other apostles) regarding salvation. In the New Covenant we don't need to be perfect, but we have to be holy.

Matthew 5:48 New International Version (NIV)
Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.



Hebrews 12:14 English Standard Version (ESV)
Strive for peace with everyone, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord.
Ok but even then no one could meet that standard so not sure why you mentioned it

Either way You still have to be perfect if your gonna earn your way

It’s either grace and mercy which leads to eternal life (OSAS)

Or works to maintain your salvation. Which the requirement is perfection (NOSAS)
 

Marcelo

Senior Member
Feb 4, 2016
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Ok but even then no one could meet that standard so not sure why you mentioned it

Either way You still have to be perfect if your gonna earn your way

It’s either grace and mercy which leads to eternal life (OSAS)

Or works to maintain your salvation. Which the requirement is perfection (NOSAS)
What standard are you referring to; perfection or holiness? I mentioned "perfection" because it was a requirement for salvation by the Law and "holiness" because it is a requirement for salvation in the New Covenant.

I am not a Law keeper, I believe in salvation by genuine grace through genuine faith.